Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 3

[javonstokess]

Tony did have a right to know. What bugs me is how severely he reacted. Tony lnew WS was framed once. He knew WS was brainwashed. So why react like that so fast instead of letting WS explain himself? Instead of going after Zemo/Hydra the people who forced Bucky to so it against his will.

And it's not like killing Bucky brings his parents back as darknos it may seem. What Tony did is the equivalant of a child throwing a tantrum after finding put his brother accidentally nroke his toy.

IMO, it seemed like that was just the straw that broke the camel's back, emotionally, with Tony. Think about it, the love of his life left him because he couldn't stop being Iron Man, he's partially responsible for the destruction of Sokovia and numerous deaths involved, the government is up his @$$ and his best, next to Rhodey, friend is not only against him in regards to the Accords, but is defending the man who killed his parents. A person can only take so much...

 

[ernesth100]

Cap did what Cap does. He stood up for his beliefs. Even though his beliefs were against what the government wanted. He protected the innocent(Bucky) and stood for what he knew was right. He was right to protect Bucky. Because had Stark gotten his hands on Bucky and found out what he did. Bucky would of been killed immediately.

 

[ernesth100]

IMO, it seemed like that was just the straw that broke the camel's back, emotionally, with Tony. Think about it, the love of his life left him because he couldn't stop being Iron Man, he's partially responsible for the destruction of Sokovia and numerous deaths involved, the government is up his @$$ and his best, next to Rhodey, friend is not only against him in regards to the Accords, but is defending the man who killed his parents. A person can only take so much...

I see that. I can see, everyone has the breaking point.

 

[javonstokess]

We're outright told that Steve never went to any hearing or spoke to any officials after the incident in DC.

Steve was basically in a coma and recovering during this. Besides, Widow was sent as a representative.

After Hulks Rampage in South Africa the entire team just takes off before any questions can be asked. The Stark relief foundation is deployed but nobody from the actual team sticks around to answer in questions, they just went into hiding.

The team went into hiding because they weren't ready to fight Ultron. Mind you, it was Stark's decision to go into hiding. Remember Maria Hill told him to stay away.

We find out at the U.N. that Cap never stuck around to answer questions about the Lagos incident. Natasha made it a point to show up and offer an apology for what happened to T'Chaka. T'Chaka says he's disappointed that Steve didn't show up.

I don't remember hearing a part where Cap didn't stick around to "answer questions". In all honesty, it looked like he rushed to help after the explosion. T'Chaka was disappointed he didn't show up to sign the Accords.

And you can't say The only time he stood against the law was when it came to him and his team trying to stop the other Winter Soldiers. He deliberately breaks the law to go find Bucky after the U.N. bombing, he makes it a point to interfere with a police operation (in a foreign country). He didn't even know that the time that Bucky wasn't responsible for the bombing. Even during the chase he only gave up because War Machine showed up.

He interfered to save his friends life. The authorities weren't there to arrest Barnes, they were there to take him out.

 

[ctsketch]

I just had my third viewing yesterday. Cap helped with the rescue and recovery and getting first responders at Lagos

 

[JB33]

Tony did have a right to know. What bugs me is how severely he reacted. Tony lnew WS was framed once. He knew WS was brainwashed. So why react like that so fast instead of letting WS explain himself? Instead of going after Zemo/Hydra the people who forced Bucky to so it against his will.

And it's not like killing Bucky brings his parents back as darknos it may seem. What Tony did is the equivalant of a child throwing a tantrum after finding put his brother accidentally nroke his toy.

Terrible, awful comparison. If you watch your parents being brutally murdered you're going to react like Tony did, no matter what the circumstances. Unless you have absolutely no balls.

 

[JB33]

IMO, it seemed like that was just the straw that broke the camel's back, emotionally, with Tony. Think about it, the love of his life left him because he couldn't stop being Iron Man, he's partially responsible for the destruction of Sokovia and numerous deaths involved, the government is up his @$$ and his best, next to Rhodey, friend is not only against him in regards to the Accords, but is defending the man who killed his parents. A person can only take so much...

This. How this doesn't come naturally to some people is beyond me. How could anyone expect a different reaction from Tony?

This is coming from someone who was more or less Team Captain America, by the way. I just think Tony's role in the climax was completely warranted. He had bones to pick.

 

[Havok83]

I also thought Tony was justified in his anger in that moment. I cant imagine seeing my parents murder on a video tape and the killer standing right next to me. I dont know how I would react but I doubt I'd be calm. I'd attack Bucky too

 

[Xeno]

I also thought Tony was justified in his anger in that moment. I cant imagine seeing my parents murder on a video tape and the killer standing right next to me. I dont know how I would react but I doubt I'd be calm. I'd attack Bucky too

Most people eould have been enraged in a situation like that. Hell, there are folks who fly into blind rages if they get cut off on the highway. Someone wearing a 7' tall bundle of WMDs when they saw that video would definitely start beating every ass in sight. One for being a murderer and the other for covering up the crime.

 

[Stevie2020]

This. How this doesn't come naturally to some people is beyond me. How could anyone expect a different reaction from Tony?

This is coming from someone who was more or less Team Captain America, by the way. I just think Tony's role in the climax was completely warranted. He had bones to pick.

People view this movie from such different perspectives. I know this is totally what the filmmakers wanted. I went into this movie 100% spoiled and 100% Team Cap. I didn't blame Cap for not telling Tony and I totally understood Tonys reaction to the news.

But my sister saw the movie with me and she, who is NOT a Marvel or a Captain America fanatic, was glad to see IRON MAN "put in check" at the end.

Go figure.

 

[Schlosser85]

I can sympathize with Steve, Tony, and Bucky in the climax.

My roommate is totally Team Cap and thinks Tony is an *******, but could understand him losing it after the video.

 

[ernesth100]

Terrible, awful comparison. If you watch your parents being brutally murdered you're going to react like Tony did, no matter what the circumstances. Unless you have absolutely no balls.

Reacting that way doesn't mean you have no balls. Especially if the man who did it was framed in the first place. Bucky couldn't stop himself. Stark knew that and still chose to try and kill an innocent man. If anything he should've beat on Cap for not telling him.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I'm still trying to figure out what "mistakes" Cap made.

I'm not sure not telling Tony about who killed his parents was a mistake. It was a no-win situation.

He should at least have told him Hydra killed his parents.

 

[javonstokess]

He should at least have told him Hydra killed his parents.

And what would that have done but send Stark on a vengeance-fueled crusade a little earlier?

Cap was put in an impossible situation.

 

[StormC]

And what would that have done but send Stark on a vengeance-fueled crusade a little earlier?

Steve sits Tony down, maybe with the other Avengers present. They help him through his grief, anger and pain. Support him. You know, do what friends do.

Half of Tony's anger was directed towards Steve for keeping him in the dark, so that's already taken care of with that action.

I can sympathize with Steve, Tony, and Bucky in the climax.

That's why it's such a powerful scene.

 

[JB33]

Reacting that way doesn't mean you have no balls. Especially if the man who did it was framed in the first place. Bucky couldn't stop himself. Stark knew that and still chose to try and kill an innocent man. If anything he should've beat on Cap for not telling him.

If you were to watch that and not want to throttle the person who did it to your parents, there's something wrong with you. I can accept that maybe it's not right for Tony to try to outright kill Bucky, but at the end of the day the point is the same: Tony had lost it by this point. Completely lost it. It's not right, but that's what he did and I don't blame him. It's not exactly realistic to have a calm, understanding approach in that kind of situation. He was going to put Bucky out of his misery, which in his mind would right a lot of wrongs. Again, I don't blame him for thinking that way IN THAT MOMENT.

This kind of brings us to the point of Civil War. We can argue until the cows come home about what the right course of action in any given situation is, but at the end of the day the characters in the movie did things and made choices based on who they are. In this particular film, it caused them to be at odds.

 

[ernesth100]

If you were to watch that and not want to throttle the person who did it to your parents, there's something wrong with you. I can accept that maybe it's not right for Tony to try to outright kill Bucky, but at the end of the day the point is the same: Tony had lost it by this point. Completely lost it. It's not right, but that's what he did and I don't blame him. It's not exactly realistic to have a calm, understanding approach in that kind of situation. He was going to put Bucky out of his misery, which in his mind would right a lot of wrongs. Again, I don't blame him for thinking that way IN THAT MOMENT.

This kind of brings us to the point of Civil War. We can argue until the cows come home about what the right course of action in any given situation is, but at the end of the day the characters in the movie did things and made choices based on who they are. In this particular film, it caused them to be at odds.

Which is why I love this film and am amazed they pulled it off in a way where we can argue about whats right and wrong.

 

[JB33]

Which is why I love this film and am amazed they pulled it off in a way where we can argue about whats right and wrong.

Bingo!

 

[Xeno]

Reacting that way doesn't mean you have no balls. Especially if the man who did it was framed in the first place. Bucky couldn't stop himself. Stark knew that and still chose to try and kill an innocent man. If anything he should've beat on Cap for not telling him.

Steve was the very first person Tony hit, right after the good Captain answered yes to, "Don't bull**** me, Rogers. Did you know?" Cap more than earned that backhand. As much as I love both of them, for a few minutes I was rooting for Tony to kick Steve's ass.

 

[Xeno]

If you were to watch that and not want to throttle the person who did it to your parents, there's something wrong with you. I can accept that maybe it's not right for Tony to try to outright kill Bucky, but at the end of the day the point is the same: Tony had lost it by this point. Completely lost it. It's not right, but that's what he did and I don't blame him. It's not exactly realistic to have a calm, understanding approach in that kind of situation. He was going to put Bucky out of his misery, which in his mind would right a lot of wrongs. Again, I don't blame him for thinking that way IN THAT MOMENT.

This kind of brings us to the point of Civil War. We can argue until the cows come home about what the right course of action in any given situation is, but at the end of the day the characters in the movie did things and made choices based on who they are. In this particular film, it caused them to be at odds.

Markus & McFeely said that they deliberately set the situation up so that Tony would lose control in the final fight. They stripped away Tony's support system and emotional defenses, and then sprung that tape on him to make his attempt to kill Bucky seem inevitable. They were as crafty as Zemo in positioning the players. Tony came off the worse for that fight, naturally. Had Favreau or Black been in charge, one would have expected Steve to be the vilified loser instead.

 

[javonstokess]

Steve sits Tony down, maybe with the other Avengers present. They help him through his grief, anger and pain. Support him. You know, do what friends do.

Half of Tony's anger was directed towards Steve for keeping him in the dark, so that's already taken care of with that action.

Sorry, but Tony Stark has NEVER shown himself to be the "sit down an process his grief" type of person in ANY of the Marvel movies.

Tony just acts. It's what he does. He goes from thought-to-action at light speed and he's just lucky that he's a genius.

 

[TalismanRing]

Markus & McFeely said that they deliberately set the situation up so that Tony would lose control in the final fight. They stripped away Tony's support system and emotional defenses, and then sprung that tape on him to make his attempt to kill Bucky seem inevitable. They were as crafty as Zemo in positioning the players. Tony came off the worse for that fight, naturally. Had Favreau or Black been in charge, one would have expected Steve to be the vilified loser instead.

Tony wasn't vilified. They bent over backwards in this movie to make him emotionally sympathetic even when he was wrong about The Accords (which he later breaks himself but doesn't get arrested for) that they also contorted as much as possible to seem reasonable in all their 3 day rush job sign this or else non Due Process glory presented by hypocritical dangerous Ross.

I found him very sympathetic at the end and understood his pain and rage and why he did what he did even though I don't think that gave him the right to murder anyone or believe that Steve should or could allow it.

 

[shadowboxxx]

Wasn't he currently in a coma and hospitalized when that hearing was taking place?

They were re-grouping to fight Ultron who was in the process of sending us back to the Stone-Age. Of course we know what the WSC solution would have been to Sokivia - send in a nuke.



AFAIR They don't say he wasn't there to discus Lagos which happened a month earlier. He was calling in help for the casualties after the explosion. I sincerely doubt he got up and left in the middle of it.

T'Chaka was disappointed he wasn't there to sign the Accords.



He broke the law to stop people from being killed, not just Bucky but the Task Force. Whereas, T'Challa broke it to commit murder and gets a slap on the wrist from Ross.

By the end of the movie only Vision and Rhodey haven't broken The Accords and one of them was paralyzed and the other feeling guilty for causing it.

You still couldnt find an instance where Cap is ready to accept responsability for his actions.

To put in simple terms, Cap views himself above any law and any authority.

So long as he does what he believes is right, everything else will take a backseat.

That can come out in the best way possible, like in TWS, but it can have its consequences too, like in CW. The Avengers being fugitives isnt a good thing... for anybody.

 

[shadowboxxx]

Sorry, but Tony Stark has NEVER shown himself to be the "sit down an process his grief" type of person in ANY of the Marvel movies.

Tony just acts. It's what he does. He goes from thought-to-action at light speed and he's just lucky that he's a genius.

I still dont see your point. He's in a room full of friends. Or its just him and Steve. What is he gonna do, destroy the room they are in? Ok... Then what? Who is he going to be mad at exactly?

Also, knowing how impulsive Tony can be is EXACTLY the reason why Steve should want to have that conversation with him in the right setting.

 

[StormC]

Sorry, but Tony Stark has NEVER shown himself to be the "sit down an process his grief" type of person in ANY of the Marvel movies.

Tony just acts. It's what he does. He goes from thought-to-action at light speed and he's just lucky that he's a genius.

That's why his friends are there. To prevent him from acting impulsively and making a mistake. How's he gonna get past Thor and Captain America to run to his Iron Man suit?