Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 3

[Wylie Times]

He was fully prepared to be, and in fact was, arrested when he first caught up with Bucky. His goal there was make sure everyone made through alive and was willing to face the consequences. When Wanda blew up the building Cap didn't say "Oh **** Wanda, cheese it before the fuzz gets here"

The only time he actively stood against the law was when the system was being manipulated and too many people were more concerned with covering their own ass then standing up to the actual threat. It becomes abundantly clear to Cap that Bucky was framed for a reason and that no one in authority was interested in the truth. Even in the Airport he told Tony that there was a threat and they have no time but Tony, more interested in complying with the accords then stopping a major threat. He only changed his tune and agreed with Cap when over abundance of evidence was handed to him. Evidence by which meant nothing to Ross.

Cap never previously avoided responsibility. Not for NYC, DC, South Korea, Sokovia, or Lagos. Even at the end of Civil War he accepts that can no longer be Captain America or an Avenger. He accepts becoming a fugitive to protected his allies and to stand up against a law he thinks is wrong. He's now a criminal but that doesn't mean he's wrong or refuses to pay the piper.

This is just untrue.

We're outright told that Steve never went to any hearing or spoke to any officials after the incident in DC.

After Hulks Rampage in South Africa the entire team just takes off before any questions can be asked. The Stark relief foundation is deployed but nobody from the actual team sticks around to answer in questions, they just went into hiding.

We find out at the U.N. that Cap never stuck around to answer questions about the Lagos incident. Natasha made it a point to show up and offer an apology for what happened to T'Chaka. T'Chaka says he's disappointed that Steve didn't show up.

And you can't say The only time he stood against the law was when it came to him and his team trying to stop the other Winter Soldiers. He deliberately breaks the law to go find Bucky after the U.N. bombing, he makes it a point to interfere with a police operation (in a foreign country). He didn't even know that the time that Bucky wasn't responsible for the bombing. Even during the chase he only gave up because War Machine showed up.

 

[dyl1dyl]

WHY IT'S CALLED TEAM CAP

 

[shadowboxxx]

To be fair, that's the first thing Cap considers doing, Falcon talks him out of it though.

But thats why im saying handing over Bucky would have been a sign of good faith on his part. IM would have listened to him after that.

 

[Solaire]

I feel like such a geek. Listening to a podcast and kinda getting pissed. Cap knowing about Bucky killing the Starks was behind the scenes or something the writers just put in? You'd think people would actually remember the films they watch, especially the great ones.

Then they say Zemo was committing suicide because his planned fail, wow.

 

[metaphysician]

Also anyone thing it was a ****ting move to only tell Cap about the accords six days before it's ratified? Didn't anyone want his opinions while writing it?

Three days, actually. And its not just a ****** move, IMO, its the biggest evidence that *someone* involved was deliberately trying to sabotage things. If the Avengers had been told even a month beforehand, they would have involved themselves in the process, and the Accords would have been a reasonable and functional compromise. *Somebody* didn't want that to happen, and used what influence they had to keep it secret, so they'd get the Accords we got. The obvious guess is "Hydra remnants", but there are certainly other possibilities.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Isn't that a fanwank to explain what is essentially plot convenience?

 

[Wylie Times]

Isn't that a fanwank to explain what is essentially plot convenience?

That's exactly what it is....

You'd have to ignore that T'Chaka was one of the main people behind the Accords. The incident in Lagos killed 11 Wakandan officials.

 

[TalismanRing]

This is just untrue.

We're outright told that Steve never went to any hearing or spoke to any officials after the incident in DC.

Wasn't he currently in a coma and hospitalized when that hearing was taking place?

After Hulks Rampage in South Africa the entire team just takes off before any questions can be asked. The Stark relief foundation is deployed but nobody from the actual team sticks around to answer in questions, they just went into hiding.

They were re-grouping to fight Ultron who was in the process of sending us back to the Stone-Age. Of course we know what the WSC solution would have been to Sokivia - send in a nuke.

We find out at the U.N. that Cap never stuck around to answer questions about the Lagos incident. Natasha made it a point to show up and offer an apology for what happened to T'Chaka. T'Chaka says he's disappointed that Steve didn't show up.

AFAIR They don't say he wasn't there to discus Lagos which happened a month earlier. He was calling in help for the casualties after the explosion. I sincerely doubt he got up and left in the middle of it.

T'Chaka was disappointed he wasn't there to sign the Accords.

And you can't say The only time he stood against the law was when it came to him and his team trying to stop the other Winter Soldiers. He deliberately breaks the law to go find Bucky after the U.N. bombing, he makes it a point to interfere with a police operation (in a foreign country). He didn't even know that the time that Bucky wasn't responsible for the bombing. Even during the chase he only gave up because War Machine showed up.

He broke the law to stop people from being killed, not just Bucky but the Task Force. Whereas, T'Challa broke it to commit murder and gets a slap on the wrist from Ross.

By the end of the movie only Vision and Rhodey haven't broken The Accords and one of them was paralyzed and the other feeling guilty for causing it.

 

[Tony Stark]

I feel like such a geek. Listening to a podcast and kinda getting pissed. Cap knowing about Bucky killing the Starks was behind the scenes or something the writers just put in? You'd think people would actually remember the films they watch, especially the great ones.

Then they say Zemo was committing suicide because his planned fail, wow.

Oh my gosh! What podcast was this? Amazing people being totally clueless. I could forgive about the Cap knowing Bucky killed the Starks, because the clue was somewhat subtle in WS, but Zemo thinking his plan failed? lol!

 

[InCali]

I'm not saying I don't think Cap or Tony made mistakes (or others for that matter) because they clearly both did. The people that Tony is trusting are NOT to be trusted. That's pretty clear and I think in spite of the mistakes, Cap is generally right to steer clear of the accords.

If anyone bears the most guilt, I think it's Tony and his creation of Ultron. It was a good thought, but he, again, let his arrogance cloud his judgement. His reaction in CW was a direct result of his feelings of guilt.

What would have happened if the events in TA, AoU, etc. took place while the Avengers were under (the VERY suspicious) auspices of the "overseers"? Wouldn't have had a very good outcome IMO. Ditto for the events of TDW, IM2, etc. Just what we need; some a-hole like Ross calling the shots. Sounds like a plan.....but a lousy one.

In spite of mistakes, I think Cap is correct on this one.

 

[javonstokess]

I'm still trying to figure out what "mistakes" Cap made.

I'm not sure not telling Tony about who killed his parents was a mistake. It was a no-win situation.

 

[JOE]

He's trying to save Bucky in the movie from the government because he knows that although Bucky did what he did, he shouldn't be blamed. Sure, lets tell Tony that he also killed his parents, that'll help.

That's why, plain and simple.

 

[Just_Human]

Cap knew Hydra killed the Starks, he didn't know it was Bucky

 

[javonstokess]

Cap knew Hydra killed the Starks, he didn't know it was Bucky

He knew, that's why he SAID he knew. I mean, Zola implied so hard about it he might as well have slapped him across the face with it in Winter Soldier.

 

[javonstokess]

He's trying to save Bucky in the movie from the government because he knows that although Bucky did what he did, he shouldn't be blamed. Sure, lets tell Tony that he also killed his parents, that'll help.

That's why, plain and simple.

Exactly. Cap was fighting for his friend's life. Everyone around him was bound and determined to kill Bucky. Cap had already lost one friend at the beginning of the movie and he wasn't going to lose another.

 

[Tony Stark]

He knew, that's why he SAID he knew. I mean, Zola implied so hard about it he might as well have slapped him across the face with it in Winter Soldier.

Yes he knew, the exact conversation was:

Tony: Did you know?

Cap: I didn't know it was him.

Tony: Don't Bull***t me Rogers, DID YOU KNOW?!

Cap: yes

The implication from the conversation is that Cap knew EXACTLY what happened. Cap lied to protect Bucky and Tony. Cap knew Bucky was brainwashed and the Bucky he knew would never have done such a thing.

Bucky understands he performed all of those evil acts, and he even remembers everyone of them, even if he didn't have control.

 

[javonstokess]

Yes he knew, the exact conversation was:

Tony: Did you know?

Cap: I didn't know it was him.

Tony: Don't Bull***t me Rogers, DID YOU KNOW?!

Cap: yes

The implication from the conversation is that Cap knew EXACTLY what happened. Cap lied to protect Bucky and Tony. Cap knew Bucky was brainwashed and the Bucky he knew would never have done such a thing.

Bucky understands he performed all of those evil acts, and he even remembers everyone of them, even if he didn't have control.

The only thing is Cap never lied to Tony. He just didn't tell him.

*you can tell that I don't believe in lying by omission lol*

 

[Tony Stark]

The only thing is Cap never lied to Tony. He just didn't tell him.

*you can tell that I don't believe in lying by omission lol*

He hid the truth from Tony, which is a key part of the story and a failing on Cap's part. Both Tony's ego and Caps unwavering loyalty were exploited by Zemo.

 

[javonstokess]

He hid the truth from Tony, which is a key part of the story and a failing on Cap's part. Both Tony's ego and Caps unwavering loyalty were exploited by Zemo.

Is it really a failing on Cap's part?

He had no real recourse in this situation. I do agree that this was exploited by Zemo.

 

[Visualiza]

He hid the truth from Tony, which is a key part of the story and a failing on Cap's part. Both Tony's ego and Caps unwavering loyalty were exploited by Zemo.

Is it really a failing on Cap's part?

He had no real recourse in this situation. I do agree that this was exploited by Zemo.

It absolutely is, given his admonishment of Tony in AoU -

Sometimes my teammates don't tell me things.

He made it a point to rub that in Tony's face. Goes to show that even Captain America can slip up and compromise his morals in a given situation. Brings him a bit closer to earth, and serves as a nice bookend to his arc before we get into IW (or whatever they end up calling those movies).

 

[The_Manhunter]

Is it really a failing on Cap's part?

He had no real recourse in this situation. I do agree that this was exploited by Zemo.

It definitely was a fault. Tony had a right to know.

 

[TalismanRing]

Yes he knew, the exact conversation was:

Tony: Did you know?

Cap: I didn't know it was him.

Tony: Don't Bull***t me Rogers, DID YOU KNOW?!

Cap: yes

The implication from the conversation is that Cap knew EXACTLY what happened. Cap lied to protect Bucky and Tony. Cap knew Bucky was brainwashed and the Bucky he knew would never have done such a thing.

Bucky understands he performed all of those evil acts, and he even remembers everyone of them, even if he didn't have control.

No, the implication is he knew they were murdered which he and Nat did. He didn't KNOW it was Bucky. He couldn't possibly know, he could only worry or guess that he was the HYDRA assassin involved. Just like Nat. he had only the information we as the audience had after TWS and we didn't "know".

Why would Steve lie about that the fist time and then just one second not lie about it? Telling Tony one second later wasn't going to make him any less enraged. Since when is Steve 1) a liar and 2) stupid. He'd have to be both with that interpretation.

 

[The Guard]

This is just untrue.

We're outright told that Steve never went to any hearing or spoke to any officials after the incident in DC.

After Hulks Rampage in South Africa the entire team just takes off before any questions can be asked. The Stark relief foundation is deployed but nobody from the actual team sticks around to answer in questions, they just went into hiding.

We find out at the U.N. that Cap never stuck around to answer questions about the Lagos incident. Natasha made it a point to show up and offer an apology for what happened to T'Chaka. T'Chaka says he's disappointed that Steve didn't show up.

And you can't say The only time he stood against the law was when it came to him and his team trying to stop the other Winter Soldiers. He deliberately breaks the law to go find Bucky after the U.N. bombing, he makes it a point to interfere with a police operation (in a foreign country). He didn't even know that the time that Bucky wasn't responsible for the bombing. Even during the chase he only gave up because War Machine showed up.

Short of "standing up for what you believe in", Cap doesn't come off the best in this film, does he?

 

[ernesth100]

It definitely was a fault. Tony had a right to know.

Tony did have a right to know. What bugs me is how severely he reacted. Tony lnew WS was framed once. He knew WS was brainwashed. So why react like that so fast instead of letting WS explain himself? Instead of going after Zemo/Hydra the people who forced Bucky to so it against his will.

And it's not like killing Bucky brings his parents back as darknos it may seem. What Tony did is the equivalant of a child throwing a tantrum after finding put his brother accidentally nroke his toy.

 

[javonstokess]

Short of "standing up for what you believe in", Cap doesn't come off the best in this film, does he?

Not as bad as some people are making him out to be. He was pushed into a situation and there was no easy out.

His best friend was framed and now hunted by all parties (most with no problem with killing him), he JUST witnessed how corrupt governmental forces can be which made him leery of signing the Accords and he knew that his best friends was, by brain washing of course, responsible for the death of his NEW friend's parents.

I thought Cap handled it the best he could with the information in front of him.