Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 3

[metaphysician]

If he like the rest of the team are indeed in wakanda , i'm sure he can arrange some flight to there but honestly though , seeing as Pym hate all starks , i'm sure pym can make some arrangement to have a special compound to hide the secret avengers.

If they can manage to secretly invade the Raft and liberate the rest of the Avengers, I'm sure they can arrange to maneuver around the world covertly. It won't be optimal, but I'm sure Scott will be able to see his family at least occasionally.

 

[javonstokess]

I loved the movie but a couple of things still make me scratch my head and hopefully someone can explain them to me.

1. Why would Tony recruit a 15 year old kid to fight in an adult's world? Look, I get that Spider-Man is very, very strong and capable in a fight. (We see that in the Airport scene.) But still, it's pretty irresponsible to recruit a kid against a bunch of experienced, enhanced individuals. I loved seeing Spider-Man there but I'm just trying to understand why Tony would risk having such a young, inexperienced kid at this fight. Was it just so he could have a wild card that none of them could take on?

2. How on Earth did Zemo, who I thought was Hydra but turned out to be just a Sokovian colonel who lost everyone in the Battle of Sokovia a year prior, be able to come up with all of this intel to bring the Avengers into this revenge plot? I get that Black Widow released all the info about SHIELD but was the Winter Solider program and all of it's detail leaked out, too? I know he mentions that to guy when he has him upside down. How did he even know about the book with Bucky's trigger words and the surveillance tap showing the elder Stark family murdered? Unless I'm missing something here, that's a major plot hole for me.

1. I think he saw this as an opportunity to make up for "killing" the young kid in Sokovia. He sees this kid with alot of power and he decides to take him under his wing.

2. Zemo made the point that there were Hydra files in the infodump that related to the Winter Soldier that he decrypted.

 

[Wylie Times]

I loved the movie but a couple of things still make me scratch my head and hopefully someone can explain them to me.

1. Why would Tony recruit a 15 year old kid to fight in an adult's world? Look, I get that Spider-Man is very, very strong and capable in a fight. (We see that in the Airport scene.) But still, it's pretty irresponsible to recruit a kid against a bunch of experienced, enhanced individuals. I loved seeing Spider-Man there but I'm just trying to understand why Tony would risk having such a young, inexperienced kid at this fight. Was it just so he could have a wild card that none of them could take on?

The best argument that you could possibly make is that Tony was just that desperate to bring Steve in as soon and as safely as possible. I personally think it's evidence that Spidey was shoehorned into the film. Once he was there he was handled beautifully, but he is in no way integral to the plot.

2. How on Earth did Zemo, who I thought was Hydra but turned out to be just a Sokovian colonel who lost everyone in the Battle of Sokovia a year prior, be able to come up with all of this intel to bring the Avengers into this revenge plot? I get that Black Widow released all the info about SHIELD but was the Winter Solider program and all of it's detail leaked out, too? I know he mentions that to guy when he has him upside down. How did he even know about the book with Bucky's trigger words and the surveillance tap showing the elder Stark family murdered? Unless I'm missing something here, that's a major plot hole for me.

Zemo wasn't just a soldier, he was part of Sokovia's intelligence agency. He got what information he could from encrypting the info Widow leaked and the rest he got from interrogating Hydra agents. Gathering info on enemies was his specialty and he was clearly motivated to get whatever dirt he could to tear the Avengers apart.

 

[TalismanRing]

Zemo was an intelligence officer as well s a Colonel who ran a special kill squad. So decrypting all that leaked HYDRA information was within his abilities. He could use that information to track down HYDRA agents and of course the information about HYDRA murdering Howard & Maria was in those files (as Zemo showed Steve & Nat).

He found the book when he broke though that HYDRA agents wall. Using or obtaining it was not his first plan, he tried to get information out of the agent first. He just wanted the location of the HYDRA facility because he thought he'd find records there to prove what happened and use that as wedge between Tony and Steve. The video was one of those records, but he might not have known of it's specific existence until he found it.

As for Tony, he wanted another "heavy hitter" but also thought he could just use Spider-Man to web them up. He even told him just to do that but Peter wanted to be more involved.

What was he thinking bringing along a 15 yr old? Not much IMO. There was an interview with RDJ and I think the writers talking about how it also showed how driven Tony was becoming and needing to be right and needing to win against Steve at the same time wanting to bring everyone in safely. He's complicated.

 

[javonstokess]

I kinda wish we could have a move with Cap's "Secret" Avengers. I'd love to see a whole movie with Cap, BW, Falcons, SW, Ant-Man and Hawkeye as a unit.

 

[C. Lee]

As for Tony, he wanted another "heavy hitter" but also thought he could just use Spider-Man to web them up. He even told him just to do that but Peter wanted to be more involved.

What was he thinking bringing along a 15 yr old? Not much IMO. There was an interview with RDJ and I think the writers talking about how it also showed how driven Tony was becoming and needing to be right and needing to win against Steve at the same time wanting to bring everyone in safely. He's complicated.

In the movie Tony says something that can be either the truth or just another of his witty asides....when Spidey makes the ESB reference, Rhodey asks "How old is this guy?"....and Tony answers "How should I know, I didn't carbon date him." So there is the possibility that Tony is so caught up in the moment that he glossed over Peter's age and it really didn't register on him.,,,or he knows and didn't care because Tony always does what Tony wants to get things done that he wants done.

 

[Venom'sDad]

I think the carbon date thing was a knock about Cap's age....they haven't carbon dated this freak of human specimen yet, like Cap was...like what's the difference, for now.

 

[captainrogers]

I loved the movie but a couple of things still make me scratch my head and hopefully someone can explain them to me.

1. Why would Tony recruit a 15 year old kid to fight in an adult's world? Look, I get that Spider-Man is very, very strong and capable in a fight. (We see that in the Airport scene.) But still, it's pretty irresponsible to recruit a kid against a bunch of experienced, enhanced individuals. I loved seeing Spider-Man there but I'm just trying to understand why Tony would risk having such a young, inexperienced kid at this fight. Was it just so he could have a wild card that none of them could take on?

2. How on Earth did Zemo, who I thought was Hydra but turned out to be just a Sokovian colonel who lost everyone in the Battle of Sokovia a year prior, be able to come up with all of this intel to bring the Avengers into this revenge plot? I get that Black Widow released all the info about SHIELD but was the Winter Solider program and all of it's detail leaked out, too? I know he mentions that to guy when he has him upside down. How did he even know about the book with Bucky's trigger words and the surveillance tap showing the elder Stark family murdered? Unless I'm missing something here, that's a major plot hole for me.

1)that's exactly the reason. Tony, while trying to do things more "responsibly" now, kind of knee jerk reacts still. Keeping Wanda confined and getting an underage kid to join his ranks. I'm sure Pete's signature would be null and void, precisely because he's NOT of legal age. So he was more than likely there "off the books". Also why Stark told him that he was "DONE" at the end.
He's a kid. stark probably worried about having an underage child killed in the line of duty. It would be on him. And not legal to begin with.
There's also another layer I saw to it:
Tony sees A bit of himself in Peter.
Tech geek. Brilliant.
But ALSO:
He sees a lot of STEVE in Peter. He wants to stand up for the little guys. He's a nerdy kid who wasn't very powerful before, suddenly found himself with Great Power.
And he wants to use it for good. Unselfishly.
What he said about "if you let the bad stuff happen first, and you let it...well the bad stuff happens because of you.."
That basically mirrors Steve's "if I see a situation headed south, I can't ignore it"
Tony, subconsciously sees having Spidey on his team as kind of having a Steve like presence there.
And the similarity is hammered home by the "Queens/Brooklyn" exchange Cap and Spidey have at the airport.

 

[JtheDreamer]

In the movie Tony says something that can be either the truth or just another of his witty asides....when Spidey makes the ESB reference, Rhodey asks "How old is this guy?"....and Tony answers "How should I know, I didn't carbon date him." So there is the possibility that Tony is so caught up in the moment that he glossed over Peter's age and it really didn't register on him.,,,or he knows and didn't care because Tony always does what Tony wants to get things done that he wants done.

He doesn't know based on the kid living with his aunt and talking about a grant given to students?

He knows he's young. He just doesn't know the EXACT age.

 

[JOE]

Well, he saw him catch a car. He probably figured he could handle himself.

 

[Herolee10]

So if Team Iron man knew that Team Cap needed to get a ride at the airport in order to leave the country, why didn't they just destroy the quinjet? It would have defeated Team Cap's purpose in being at the airport.

 

[Enriquespy]

I haven't seen anyone mention anything about Tony droping hints that he might gonna have a heart attack soon.

did no one else noticed this? I spend the las fight expecting him to suddenly collapse due to his heart, yet nothing comes out o this.

 

[Nathan]

I think he only mentioned once that his arm was numb. But he was just hit by a super soldier.

 

[Havok83]

I haven't seen anyone mention anything about Tony droping hints that he might gonna have a heart attack soon.

did no one else noticed this? I spend the las fight expecting him to suddenly collapse due to his heart, yet nothing comes out o this.

No, but its perfect as that sets up a reason why Iron Man wont save the day in Spider-Man. I was just saying earlier, he will either need to be hospitalzed or arrested

 

[Enriquespy]

I think he only mentioned once that his arm was numb. But he was just hit by a super soldier.

Twice, and seemed rather concerned about the feeling.

It's probably nothing, but if it is something I call the rights to say "I knew it!!" in the future.

 

[javonstokess]

So if Team Iron man knew that Team Cap needed to get a ride at the airport in order to leave the country, why didn't they just destroy the quinjet? It would have defeated Team Cap's purpose in being at the airport.

I thought about this as well, but when I watched it the 2nd time, I saw that they weren't initially going for the quinjet. They were initially just trying to get to the helicopter, when Tony disabled that, they tried for the airplane, when that got damaged, they saw the Quinjet and took off for that.

 

[Solaire]

Said it once but it would be a cool way to introduce Carol Danvers seeing how Captain America is now a fugitive. I'm not sure how she'll get her powers in the MCU but she'd be a great replacement if Ross and Co were looking for a new face of the US.

 

[JB33]

I thought about this as well, but when I watched it the 2nd time, I saw that they weren't initially going for the quinjet. They were initially just trying to get to the helicopter, when Tony disabled that, they tried for the airplane, when that got damaged, they saw the Quinjet and took off for that.

Good point.

 

[C. Lee]

I think the carbon date thing was a knock about Cap's age....they haven't carbon dated this freak of human specimen yet, like Cap was...like what's the difference, for now.

It was a flippant reference yes, but how flippant? Was he in his scientific way saying he really wasn't sure of the exact age of Peter.....or was he in his flippant way saying he didn't care? It could go either way with him.

He doesn't know based on the kid living with his aunt and talking about a grant given to students?

He knows he's young. He just doesn't know the EXACT age.

But the thing I was referencing was....does he care? Was he saying he hadn't carbon dated him to be flippant because he didn't care what his age was...or did he say it because he didn't know?

I haven't seen anyone mention anything about Tony droping hints that he might gonna have a heart attack soon.

did no one else noticed this? I spend the las fight expecting him to suddenly collapse due to his heart, yet nothing comes out o this.

I noticed, just haven't mentioned every thing I noticed in the movie yet.

I think he only mentioned once that his arm was numb. But he was just hit by a super soldier.

It was after the airport fight....he was out of the suit and in regular clothes with Nat after Ross gave him a short time to find Cap and WS...he asked "Is my left arm supposed to be numb?"....numb left arm is classic sign of a heart attack. With Tony, you can't be sure if he was being serious about the numbness or making the remark because he knew Nat knew what it meant and he was trying to be funny about being put under pressure by Ross.

 

[Nathan]

It was after the airport fight....he was out of the suit and in regular clothes with Nat after Ross gave him a short time to find Cap and WS...he asked "Is my left arm supposed to be numb?"

That was actually before the fight, Lee. Ross gives him the 36 hour ultimatum, he gets Spidey, we get the Airport battle, and after that it's basically Tony at the Hospital looking after Rhodey, then arguing with Natasha, and later visiting the Raft.

....numb left arm is classic sign of a heart attack. With Tony, you can't be sure if he was being serious about the numbness or making the remark because he knew Nat knew what it meant and he was trying to be funny about being put under pressure by Ross.

Yeah, at first I thought that too. But ultimately a false alarm. But maybe it'll come into play in the future. Now that he isn't reliant on the arc reactor anymore, guess they might give him a heart condition, so he has a weakness again.

 

[MarvelMayhem]

Just saw it for the second time. I actually enjoyed it more this one around only because I felt like I savor some of the action instead trying to wrap my mind around it all at once.
Even though the airport is extreme fun, and the spider man scenes are just wonderful, I really think the hallway/staircase scene with Bucky and Cap was my fav. Loved them teaming up even though Bucky really wanted Steve to go and stop helping out.
Also missed the first time that it was Romanoffs locker that Barnes takes his weapon from, kind of a nice little tidbit.
And more blown away with how well RDJ did playing a bit low key, he looks down right haggard most of the time when he is trying to get everyone to agree with the accords. I felt like he really wanted the best for everyone involved.

 

[BoredGuy]

Yeah in this film and age of ultron the suits looked real cheap which is odd considering how real they looked in IM1

Well IM1 was a lot of practical suits, especially when Tony's face was shown in the helmet
IM2 and Avengers used practical torsos and mo-capped legs
whereas IM3, AoU, and CW have seemingly mo-capped the whole thing (though IM3 suits still looked better than AoU or CW)

 

[JtheDreamer]

So if Team Iron man knew that Team Cap needed to get a ride at the airport in order to leave the country, why didn't they just destroy the quinjet? It would have defeated Team Cap's purpose in being at the airport.

Would have saved the destruction of part of the airport - especially after Vision tore down a whole tower.

But the movie wanted to add more spectacle.

 

[JtheDreamer]

But the thing I was referencing was....does he care? Was he saying he hadn't carbon dated him to be flippant because he didn't care what his age was...or did he say it because he didn't know?

Tony has an idea. Again he's been in the kids room. The response he gave was as you said - flippant. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[metaphysician]

Too soon.

Yeah, but I'm sure he'll be back by the end. Probably after proving a critical advantage by hacking the Infinity Gauntlet from inside, because one sixth of it is the gem that is his core. ;-)