Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 3

[Schlosser85]

I believe that Tony will eventually find peace by "killing" the winter soldier: by removing the brain programation inside of bucky with the memory thingy that he showed in the university.

ooooh.....interesting theory and could be cathartic for both of them

 

[StormC]

So during my third viewing today, the power cut out in the theater during Steve vs. Tony (literally right when Tony catches his shield). Got a free ticket for my trouble.

Guess I'm gonna break my own rule and see it a fourth time...and this ticket can be used for IMAX.

 

[ernesth100]

How convenient and lucky is that.

 

[Just_Human]

Even Zemo would find that too convenient

But hey, his EMP works so why not

 

[Just_Human]

The only thing is Cap never lied to Tony. He just didn't tell him.

*you can tell that I don't believe in lying by omission lol*

How would he know it was Bucky?

At Camp Lehigh he found out HYDRA killed the Starks - "accident can happen" but Zola never said it was Bucky

 

[Just_Human]

No, the implication is he knew they were murdered which he and Nat did. He didn't KNOW it was Bucky. He couldn't possibly know, he could only worry or guess that he was the HYDRA assassin involved. Just like Nat. he had only the information we as the audience had after TWS and we didn't "know".

Why would Steve lie about that the fist time and then just one second not lie about it? Telling Tony one second later wasn't going to make him any less enraged. Since when is Steve 1) a liar and 2) stupid. He'd have to be both with that interpretation.

Exactly

 

[Just_Human]

Oh and by the way


Scott Lang once again underestimated a woman in hand to hand fighting

He did it in Antman and got his ass kicked by Hope

Happened again vs Widow

 

[Xeno]

THAT will be up to the writers. They can play it either way, but my guess is that, after awhile, you are right. I think even after he cools down, he's going to want to off TWS or at least bring him in for punishment; both of which are, IMO, not okay or fair in any way. He needs help and not imprisonment. T'Challa sees this and so does Cap.

Bucky knew damned well that he needed to be imprisoned and so did Steve and T'Challa. He's like an attack dog that can go mad if it gets the wrong signal. That's why he was frozen again at the end of CW. That cylinder Bucky was in is the equivalent of the Raft on dry land.

 

[Xeno]

No, the implication is he knew they were murdered which he and Nat did. He didn't KNOW it was Bucky. He couldn't possibly know, he could only worry or guess that he was the HYDRA assassin involved. Just like Nat. he had only the information we as the audience had after TWS and we didn't "know".

Why would Steve lie about that the fist time and then just one second not lie about it? Telling Tony one second later wasn't going to make him any less enraged. Since when is Steve 1) a liar and 2) stupid. He'd have to be both with that interpretation.

Steve straight-up lied when he said that he didn't know it was Bucky. He lied to protect his friend (the only friend he cared about) and himself. He also lied because he's a selfish human being who realized that he had ****ed up big time.

When Zola showed Steve and Natasha that montage on TWS, it was obvious that Bucky had assassinated the Starks from the juxtaposition of his image, a newspaper story about their deaths and Nick Fury's file stamped "DECEASED". Bucky killed Nick to further HYDRA's plans and he slaughtered the Starks, too. Stephen McFeely told Collider that: "Steve and Natasha, though we don't talk about that, watched that video in The Winter Soldier, they know categorically that HYDRA killed them, never told Tony. So when Tony asks him, Rogers, "Did you know?" and he says yes, it's maybe the worst thing Steve's ever done. Right? Certainly the most self-involved."

I transcribed what McFeely said word for word and I'll embed the video again because this point has come up several times. The idea that Steve Rogers never lies is appealing; he even made that claim himself in TWS (where he undoubtedly lied about having kissed a woman since 1945). What's more appealing to me is that Steve is flawed. Not only did he lie in CW, he lied for selfish reasons. Before that, Steve always sacrificed his own needs for the greater good. In this one instance, he kept information from Tony to protect Bucky and make it easier to keep the search for his friend a private project. A motivated Tony Stark, with resources Steve lacked, would have found Bucky in days no matter where he tried to hide. Keeping him in the dark worked in the short run, but when really pressed Steve couldn't lie to Tony's face a second time.

When Chris Evans was promoting TWS, he said that one thing he wanted was for Steve Rogers to make a mistake. He said that as an actor he would love to play that, to see how a basically good man could do something disastrously wrong and go where that would take him. He got his wish in CW and it was wonderful.

[YT]https://youtu.be/qHohgK7B8-s[/YT]

 

[javonstokess]

Steve straight-up lied when he said that he didn't know it was Bucky. He lied to protect his friend (the only friend he cared about) and himself. He also lied because he's a selfish human being who realized that he had ****ed up big time.

When Zola showed Steve and Natasha that montage on TWS, it was obvious that Bucky had assassinated the Starks from the juxtaposition of his image, a newspaper story about their deaths and Nick Fury's file stamped "DECEASED". Bucky killed Nick to further HYDRA's plans and he slaughtered the Starks, too. Stephen McFeely told Collider that: "Steve and Natasha, though we don't talk about that, watched that video in The Winter Soldier, they know categorically that HYDRA killed them, never told Tony. So when Tony asks him, Rogers, "Did you know?" and he says yes, it's maybe the worst thing Steve's ever done. Right? Certainly the most self-involved."

I transcribed what McFeely said word for word and I'll embed the video again because this point has come up several times. The idea that Steve Rogers never lies is appealing; he even made that claim himself in TWS (where he undoubtedly lied about having kissed a woman since 1945). What's more appealing to me is that Steve is flawed. Not only did he lie in CW, he lied for selfish reasons. Before that, Steve always sacrificed his own needs for the greater good. In this one instance, he kept information from Tony to protect Bucky and make it easier to keep the search for his friend a private project. A motivated Tony Stark, with resources Steve lacked, would have found Bucky in days no matter where he tried to hide. Keeping him in the dark worked in the short run, but when really pressed Steve couldn't lie to Tony's face a second time.

When Chris Evans was promoting TWS, he said that one thing he wanted was for Steve Rogers to make a mistake. He said that as an actor he would love to play that, to see how a basically good man could do something disastrously wrong and go where that would take him. He got his wish in CW and it was wonderful.

[YT]https://youtu.be/qHohgK7B8-s[/YT]

Saying that Steve "lied" for selfish reasons is over-simplification. He didn't tell Tony because he didn't want to hurt BOTH of his friends. That's not selfish. He knew he'd be bringing heartache to Tony who, until then, thought his parents died in a random accident and he knew that Bucky was already dealing with the massive guilt of his time as an assassin.

Steve was considering the feelings of two individuals. That's not selfish.

 

[javonstokess]

Bucky knew damned well that he needed to be imprisoned and so did Steve and T'Challa. He's like an attack dog that can go mad if it gets the wrong signal. That's why he was frozen again at the end of CW. That cylinder Bucky was in is the equivalent of the Raft on dry land.

The problem is that the world around them were not trying to imprison Bucky or even give him due process. Sharon Carter said it best that they were ordered to shot on sight.

Very few people in the movie were concerned with giving Bucky the benefit of the doubt.

 

[InCali]

Everything is up to the writers.

But here are the facts. We have never known Tony to be blindly driven to do evil acts. Ever. As pig-headed as we have seen him be, its always been about doing good in the world. Think about it, he could have blamed Cap for WM going down. But he left his critically injured best friend behind to go help Cap. This isnt a guy solely driven by revenge.

Yes, he snapped when he saw his parents get murdered. His friend's betrayal twisted the knife that was already firmly planted. The writers couldnt make that any clearer for us. BUT, if the writers decide to take Tony on an arc where he is driven by revenge, they will have taken a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide left turn with the character.

Agreed, but it still doesn't seem to me that Tony is on the right side in this particular scenario. I've never thought (or said) that he's a bad guy.

 

[InCali]

Bucky knew damned well that he needed to be imprisoned and so did Steve and T'Challa. He's like an attack dog that can go mad if it gets the wrong signal. That's why he was frozen again at the end of CW. That cylinder Bucky was in is the equivalent of the Raft on dry land.

This is true. When I said "imprisonment", I was thinking of it as punishment. He doesn't need to be punished. He needs help and he knows it. As things stand now, I'm okay with the ending of CW. Everyone has a chance at redemption. I'm especially intrigued by the idea that Stark ultimately helps Bucky. That pretty much fixes everything in short order.....that and the head of Ross on a platter.

 

[shadowboxxx]

Agreed, but it still doesn't seem to me that Tony is on the right side in this particular scenario. I've never thought (or said) that he's a bad guy.

Im just not sure what you mean when you say "the right side of this particular scenario".

Im certainly not telling you that Cap should have signed the Accords. Im not telling you that General Ross can be trusted.

Im telling you, based on what I saw, what the actors said and what the directors said, that both Tony and Steve made big mistakes in this movie. For their own different reasons obviously, but the end result is that the Avengers are no more and BOTH are to blame for it.

The directors have said many times that both guys are right and wrong in their own way. Im just speaking on what Cap was wrong about, but that doesnt mean that Im saying he was wrong about everything.

I think that Tony was right in playing the political game. The rest of the global community shouldnt/cant just be ignored. That wasnt just about Ross, remember even Wakanda was for it. He wanted to sign the Accords to give a good public image and then amend the documents later on. Not the best plan but he is between a rock and a hard place. Cap just wanted to ignore all of it.

When tries to stop Cap at the airport he does everything he can to not hurt anyone even though he easily could if he wanted to. He went there because he knew Cap was in a no win situation if General Ross went after him and Bucky. By extension, the damage Cap does would surely damn all the other Avengers too.

 

[InCali]

Im just not sure what you mean when you say "the right side of this particular scenario".

Im certainly not telling you that Cap should have signed the Accords. Im not telling you that General Ross can be trusted.

Im telling you, based on what I saw, what the actors said and what the directors said, that both Tony and Steve made big mistakes in this movie. For their own different reasons obviously, but the end result is that the Avengers are no more and BOTH are to blame for it.

The directors have said many times that both guys are right and wrong in their own way. Im just speaking on what Cap was wrong about, but that doesnt mean that Im saying he was wrong about everything.

I think that Tony was right in playing the political game. The rest of the global community shouldnt/cant just be ignored. That wasnt just about Ross, remember even Wakanda was for it. He wanted to sign the Accords to give a good public image and then amend the documents later on. Not the best plan but he is between a rock and a hard place. Cap just wanted to ignore all of it.

When tries to stop Cap at the airport he does everything he can to not hurt anyone even though he easily could if he wanted to. He went there because he knew Cap was in a no win situation if General Ross went after him and Bucky. By extension, the damage Cap does would surely damn all the other Avengers too.

Well, my opinion is that they (including Tony) gave Cap no choice because he wasn't included in the group in the development of the accord (nor were most other Avengers). "IF" he was wrong, it was because he was in a no-win situation. IMO, throwing your hat in with Ross IS being on the wrong side of this coin. I think Tony whiffed on that one because of his own guilt.

I'd dearly love to see Ross give Hulk a pen and tell him to sign. More than that, I'd like to see where he'd place said pen.

It would be interesting to see Thor's reaction to this. His perspective being much larger than the rest of the Avengers.

"Here comes Thanos. We better call the UN." Makes sense to me....

 

[shadowboxxx]

Well, my opinion is that they (including Tony) gave Cap no choice because he wasn't included in the group in the development of the accord (nor were most other Avengers). "IF" he was wrong, it was because he was in a no-win situation. IMO, throwing your hat in with Ross IS being on the wrong side of this coin. I think Tony whiffed on that one because of his own guilt.

I'd dearly love to see Ross give Hulk a pen and tell him to sign. More than that, I'd like to see where he'd place said pen.

It would be interesting to see Thor's reaction to this. His perspective being much larger than the rest of the Avengers.

"Here comes Thanos. We better call the UN." Makes sense to me....

I agree with the Accords not being the answer. Steve is right when he says 'what if we need to be somewhere but they wont send us and what if they send us some place we dont want to be'.

But let me show you the other side of the coin.

You know the city Hulk tore apart in AoU (Hulkbuster fight)? Would the citizens be wrong if they refused to ever let him in there ever again?

Im just saying its not that simple.

 

[javonstokess]

I agree with the Accords not being the answer. Steve is right when he says 'what if we need to be somewhere but they wont send us and what if they send us some place we dont want to be'.

But let me show you the other side of the coin.

You know the city Hulk tore apart in AoU (Hulkbuster fight)? Would the citizens be wrong if they refused to ever let him in there ever again?

Im just saying its not that simple.

And if the UN was willing to actually discuss the creation of the Accords with Cap and the Avengers, there would be no issue. The problem is the UN and Ross went to the Avengers basically saying "get on board or retire".

 

[shadowboxxx]

And if the UN was willing to actually discuss the creation of the Accords with Cap and the Avengers, there would be no issue. The problem is the UN and Ross went to the Avengers basically saying "get on board or retire".

Oh I agree with that.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I think the Accords are a pointless measure anyway. How does the U.N think they can minimize the inevitable civilian causalities that will occur when aliens or some other threat attack a city and they have to send the Avengers in to stop it? Captain America did everything he could to lessen collateral damage in both Avengers movies and it still didn't stop people from dying. Even if he had to report to the U.N that wouldn't have changed.

 

[InCali]

NOW this discussion is going in the direction I want it to go.

And I wouldn't blame ANYONE if they didn't invite the Hulk over for dinner. I also wouldn't want to try and stop him.

I'm sure once he finished reading the accords, that he'd comply....

 

[Random490]

I think the Accords are a pointless measure anyway. How does the U.N think they can minimize the inevitable civilian causalities that will occur when aliens or some other threat attack a city and they have to send the Avengers in to stop it? Captain America did everything he could to lessen collateral damage in both Avengers movies and it still didn't stop people from dying. Even if he had to report to the U.N that wouldn't have changed.

Adding red tape makes people feel better. The whole thing about "shifting blame" is so that the counsel takes the hit if something goes bad you can deflect blame to some administrators who will just resign.

Another thing is Sovereignty, it's a big deal to send troops to another sovereign nation without permission. No one wants to stop the Avengers from protecting the world so they made a new law to allow him to legally continue under the contingency that only when the appointed counsels deems it appropriate. Which is something that could be devastating if say the counsel said "You can't go to Lagos, Crossbones is only attacking a police station. We're not gonna sign off" Then it turns out he's stealing and selling a biological weapon to terrorists. Oh well. Also Cap's other point is they could order the Avenger to go in someplace like Pakistan for political purposes and potentially start a war or something that only benefits the counsel member's interest. Cap wanted the freedom to decide where/when the Avengers should act and did not like the idea of people with their own agendas taking over.

But people feel better when the international community has a say in the Avenger's actions. It's a lot about perception than reality. How things look on the news versus how they really are.

 

[StormC]

So minor thing on the Spidey post-credits scene; I almost wonder if it was a reshoot because Holland's hair looks totally different, but maybe I'm overanalyzing it.

 

[Xeno]

Saying that Steve "lied" for selfish reasons is over-simplification. He didn't tell Tony because he didn't want to hurt BOTH of his friends. That's not selfish. He knew he'd be bringing heartache to Tony who, until then, thought his parents died in a random accident and he knew that Bucky was already dealing with the massive guilt of his time as an assassin.

Steve was considering the feelings of two individuals. That's not selfish.

Listen to the writers themselves. They said plainly that Steve was selfish and it was the worst thing he's ever done. Markus said that they kept rewriting the scene, trying to avoid having Steve admit to Tony that he knew because it was "...a little scary." It seems to be scary for some fans, too, judging by the denials.

Even Steve admitted that he failed to tell Tony for selfish reasons in that letter he wrote. "I guess maybe I thought that by not telling you about your parents I was sparing your feelings but I can see now that I was sparing myself." There you have it, right from the horse's mouth. Steve wasn't being hard enough on himself, but he was being more honest.

 

[Anita18]

ooooh.....interesting theory and could be cathartic for both of them

Oooh, I like that idea too. I can see a calmer Tony come to that reasoning.

Adding red tape makes people feel better. The whole thing about "shifting blame" is so that the counsel takes the hit if something goes bad you can deflect blame to some administrators who will just resign.

Another thing is Sovereignty, it's a big deal to send troops to another sovereign nation without permission. No one wants to stop the Avengers from protecting the world so they made a new law to allow him to legally continue under the contingency that only when the appointed counsels deems it appropriate. Which is something that could be devastating if say the counsel said "You can't go to Lagos, Crossbones is only attacking a police station. We're not gonna sign off" Then it turns out he's stealing and selling a biological weapon to terrorists. Oh well. Also Cap's other point is they could order the Avenger to go in someplace like Pakistan for political purposes and potentially start a war or something that only benefits the counsel member's interest. Cap wanted the freedom to decide where/when the Avengers should act and did not like the idea of people with their own agendas taking over.

But people feel better when the international community has a say in the Avenger's actions. It's a lot about perception than reality. How things look on the news versus how they really are.

As someone who works in government.....this is 100% true.

The project I was hired for, it had been in limbo for years since nobody wanted to take ultimate responsibility to make sure it got done. I got it done in less than a year.

And I may have to prompt my boss to let me step in again on another project because too many managers want to have a say, but nobody wants to take actual responsibility.

Ah, fun times.

 

[Anita18]

So minor thing on the Spidey post-credits scene; I almost wonder if it was a reshoot because Holland's hair looks totally different, but maybe I'm overanalyzing it.

Not nearly as bad as Kate Mara's wig in Fantastic Four. I didn't even notice Holland's hair.

Listen to the writers themselves. They said plainly that Steve was selfish and it was the worst thing he's ever done. Markus said that they kept rewriting the scene, trying to avoid having Steve admit to Tony that he knew because it was "...a little scary." It seems to be scary for some fans, too, judging by the denials.

Even Steve admitted that he failed to tell Tony for selfish reasons in that letter he wrote. "I guess maybe I thought that by not telling you about your parents I was sparing your feelings but I can see now that I was sparing myself." There you have it, right from the horse's mouth. Steve wasn't being hard enough on himself, but he was being more honest.

If it's honestly the worst thing Steve's ever done....it's really not that bad.

He sure wouldn't be the first person to keep a secret from someone, in the guise of protecting themselves or the other person. It's pretty common, actually. You mostly have to judge how bad the possible fallout would be if the truth came out. IMO in this case, the fallout would be pretty awful, especially if he DID find Bucky and managed to bring him to the Avengers fold, so it would have been better if he told Tony the truth earlier. But his reasoning isn't malicious.