The HULK Thread - Part 1

[KRYPTON INC.]

What tone would you expect from that? A similar one to Ragnarok? I wonder if Waititi would be interested if this was suggested to him. I'd love to see Marvel hang on to him. Thor 4 as well of course!

I wouldn't want it to be as flashy and shall we say, as colorful as TR. There's a lot of weighty, inherent tragedy with Banner/Hulk. But the opportunities for humor are also there for sure. And David's run is chock full of both funny stuff and pathos. And Mark shows he can do both pretty flawlessly with his run in the part so far. While I would kill for Crossroads... I don't know... Would feel slightly like a retread of elements from TR. I would keep it on Earth and include elements like the Pantheon in some fashion. Maybe keep Leader in the background and give us the U-Foes as the main baddies, as they are definitely a colorful and diverse group that I could see Waititi having fun with. All I ask is for balance. Have fun but let the drama and character have enough screen time to register and sink in to the audience taking it all in.


Oh...

And one more thing...

Spoiler

Gimme RICK MUTHA EFFING JONES!!!

 

[Roose Bolton]

I'd combine Crossroads with the Microverse stuff, or at least roll in Jarella into one of the Crossroads worlds. Have a great big storyline where Hulk goes through an emotional journey, perhaps with Strange and Valkyrie along for the ride.

Though if I'm going to be honest, I'm doubtful that Marvel Studios would ever do justice to the arc. Crossroads was epic and weird but it was also quite emotional and tragic which isn't really in their wheelhouse. They'd probably be better off going for the more fun and action-packed storylines from the comics.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I'd combine Crossroads with the Microverse stuff, or at least roll in Jarella into one of the Crossroads worlds. Have a great big storyline where Hulk goes through an emotional journey, perhaps with Strange and Valkyrie along for the ride.

Though if I'm going to be honest, I'm doubtful that Marvel Studios would ever do justice to the arc. Crossroads was epic and weird but it was also quite emotional and tragic which isn't really in their wheelhouse. They'd probably be better off going for the more fun and action-packed storylines from the comics.

Would you be down for introducing The Pantheon? I think that part of the Hulk's history could support a storyline across a trilogy. I don't even think you have to necessarily do the merging of minds thing per se. Just have Banner be brought in to the organization in some fashion. A sort of independent SHIELD that thinks it can utilize both Banner and Hulk to their fullest potential maybe?

On the other hand, we don't know how Hulk will end up post A4. Maybe that naturally leads to a Crossroads type story? It almost doesn't matter what the story is for me even. I just ask that it be balanced between the funny stuff that can be done with Hulk inherently and the pathos of a man torn in two, which Mark has done a good job of getting across. His arc in TR was way too abrupt, both in it's introduction and it's resolution. It was too weightless despite how well the film was in general, at least for my tastes.

 

[BigThor]

I'd combine Crossroads with the Microverse stuff, or at least roll in Jarella into one of the Crossroads worlds. Have a great big storyline where Hulk goes through an emotional journey, perhaps with Strange and Valkyrie along for the ride.

Though if I'm going to be honest, I'm doubtful that Marvel Studios would ever do justice to the arc. Crossroads was epic and weird but it was also quite emotional and tragic which isn't really in their wheelhouse. They'd probably be better off going for the more fun and action-packed storylines from the comics.

The Winter Solider isn't emotional and tragic? Thor 1 isn't emotional and tragic? Civil War isn't emotional and tragic?

 

[Roose Bolton]

Would you be down for introducing The Pantheon? I think that part of the Hulk's history could support a storyline across a trilogy. I don't even think you have to necessarily do the merging of minds thing per se. Just have Banner be brought in to the organization in some fashion. A sort of independent SHIELD that thinks it can utilize both Banner and Hulk to their fullest potential maybe?

On the other hand, we don't know how Hulk will end up post A4. Maybe that naturally leads to a Crossroads type story? It almost doesn't matter what the story is for me even. I just ask that it be balanced between the funny stuff that can be done with Hulk inherently and the pathos of a man torn in two, which Mark has done a good job of getting across. His arc in TR was way too abrupt, both in it's introduction and it's resolution. It was too weightless despite how well the film was in general, at least for my tastes.

The Pantheon are great, and there's the added bonus of them having the Asgardian connection, so I think they'd be a good match for Hulk in the MCU. I'm not really sure if they'll lean on the classic supporting cast too much, though as you've mentioned...Rick never got his day, so he's one to be brought into the fold in addition with the more David-centric creations.

The Winter Solider isn't emotional and tragic? Thor 1 isn't emotional and tragic? Civil War isn't emotional and tragic?

Not to the extent that would be necessary for the Crossroads or Jarella storylines to be done justice, no. I wouldn't want either of those stories to get the Planet Hulk treatment.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The Winter Solider isn't emotional and tragic? Thor 1 isn't emotional and tragic? Civil War isn't emotional and tragic?

I think that there's issues with TWS and CW as good as they are. Things are done in those films that do under cut the drama, though not as severely as in other films. I for one think that the emotional connection between Cap and Bucky is nerfed since their relationship in TFA is thin and perfunctory. So it doesn't really resonate emotionally for me in TWS and... That's supposed to be a big part of Cap and Bucky's arcs in that film and leading into CW. With CW I will never not complain about that ending with Tony. The dramatic high point of the film is the fight with Bucky and Cap against Tony. It's ends so perfectly... But they had to undermine it in my opinion with the scene with Tony.

And that's my own issue with the MCU, including this film which I really enjoyed. The dramatic and character stuff seems to take a back seat to "FUN" and comedic elements. It works gangbusters for some characters and for others I honestly find it obnoxius. If nothing else as noted, the habit of down playing the pathos and ramping up the humor can make what should be important character stuff just sort of happen without really registering or resonating. I understand Roose's reaction quite well in not wanting to see that happen to stories he holds dear.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

That's not true at all. In fact, his very first incarnation was quite intelligent. Since then, we've had multitude of numerous personalities, and only the Savage Hulk (or variations thereof) is childlike. Joe Fixit, The Maestro, The Professor, and Doc Green are all intelligent. The Green Scar persona was done much more effectively in the Planet Hulk film, and Thor: Ragnarok should have pulled more from that inspiration. There are plenty of characters that can be used for ongoing humor, but Hulk shouldn't be one of them.

I didn't say the other variations don't exist...I said the less intelligent Hulk is the main version by a large margin over the past 55 years. The very first incarnation was grey too...but that doesn't change that the Hulk has been green the overwhelming majority of the time.

Just do a google image search: https://www.google.com/search?q=hulk&newwindow=1&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii0OzO-azXAhWi34MKHZNTAqEQ_AUICigB&biw=1360&bih=637

I'm sure you can find some of the other versions somewhere there if you scroll down far enough.

We've been waiting for the real Hulk with a personality for 40 years. (since that terrible TV show turned him into a mute) So you want to move on from the established character after just one appearance to one of the variations they tried over the years?

That would be like wanting Thor to come back as a frog in Thor 2....or as Beta Ray Bill....or female Thor. One movie with the main version of Thor was enough, right?

I guess we also needed Capt America to be Bucky or Falcon in Cap 2 as well?

Batman should have been replaced by Robin in the 2nd movie too I guess. What were they thinking to stick with the main version of the character through all those movies?

The Winter Solider isn't emotional and tragic? Thor 1 isn't emotional and tragic? Civil War isn't emotional and tragic?

Add in GotG 2 as well. The Gamora/Nebula stuff was powerful. ...As was the Peter/Ego stuff. That's not even getting into the Draz backstory.

And how about Ant-Man's story? Dude goes to prison and can't be a part of his daughter's life? Ha ha? That's hilarious?

I think some people get caught up in a narrative and ignore anything that doesn't support it. "Marvel is about humor" means you can't consider all the things which disprove that idea. So Thor and Loki's heartfelt conversation in the elevator is ignored...but "Get Help" is emphasized. The death of Odin is ignored as well as the fall of Asgard.

 

[Iceman]

If Crossroads could be done properly then great, do it asap! Otherwise do something else.

 

[BigThor]

Add in GotG 2 as well. The Gamora/Nebula stuff was powerful. ...As was the Peter/Ego stuff. That's not even getting into the Draz backstory.

And how about Ant-Man's story? Dude goes to prison and can't be a part of his daughter's life? Ha ha? That's hilarious?

I think some people get caught up in a narrative and ignore anything that doesn't support it. "Marvel is about humor" means you can't consider all the things which disprove that idea. So Thor and Loki's heartfelt conversation in the elevator is ignored...but "Get Help" is emphasized. The death of Odin is ignored as well as the fall of Asgard.

Yeah I'm getting to the point where I'm not gonna even respond when people blatanly choose to not see anything else but humor in Marvel films.

 

[All-Father]

I didn't say the other variations don't exist...I said the less intelligent Hulk is the main version by a large margin over the past 55 years. The very first incarnation was grey too...but that doesn't change that the Hulk has been green the overwhelming majority of the time.

As already said, you're completely wrong here.

We had a smart Hulk as early as the first Hulk comics by Stan Lee, his personality/intelligence being more or less like the Gray Hulk (which became so famous with Peter David's run). Only after many issues (actually in Tales to Astonish #66) the first signs of the Savage childlike Hulk were seen. But even then, there were some times (like in TTA #69) where his original incarnation appeared.

Of course, during a big part of the 60s and a the 70s the Savage childlike persona was the dominant one; it became very famous!

However, in the early 80s (with Bill Mantlo) a very smart Hulk, controlled by Banner, lasted for many issues, before turning into the Mindless Hulk incarnation for a good time.

John Byrne came to make some changes in the character (his original plan was to remake the Hulk, with his original persona, mean and smarter, but also smaller and less powerful, like in the early days.), but he didn't last in the book, and Peter David took over, turning the Hulk into the original Gray Hulk at first ( for much of his run), and the creating the Merged Hulk , a combination of Grey Hulk and the Savage Hulk (whom Peter brought only for a couple of issues for the merging to happen). Peter wrote the character for 12 years, from the mid 80s to the mid 90s.

After he left the book, Marvel tried (with Byrne, again) to make the Hulk a mindless, murderous being. It didn't work and they had to call Paul Jenkins to change the book: his run featured the Grey, the Savage, and the Merged (called the "professor" ??) incarnations, and hinting on more incarnations (an evil, "devil Hulk"). That was the status quo for about 20 issues.

Then, Marvel (again) tries to turn the Hulk into a mindless monster. Not only he was mindless, he was mute for the most part (fans called him the "Zombie Hulk"). That was the Bruce Jones run, which, as an horror book, worked for a couple issues, but went nowhere fast and lasted too long).

After that, Marvel gave the keys to Greg Pak, and we know what happened: he wrote Planet Hulk, World War Hulk and had a long run in the Incredible Hulk, becoming one of the most popular writers of the Hulk ever. And his Hulk was one very close to the original: mean and considerably smart, not unlike the original!

Jason Aaron had a short run, after Pak, but he utilized a smart Hulk too, not unlike the one Pak wrote.

Mark Waid, after Aaron, tried to write the Hulk, but I don't think he even knew which Hulk he was writing: he was savage, sometimes mute and when he spoke, he sounded really dumb...

Gerry Duggan took over the book later, and he wrote a very smart (super intelligent) Hulk, of a short run.

That's it. The Savage Hulk has not been the main incarnation at all. That's been the case since the early 80s.

 

[Roose Bolton]

And how about Ant-Man's story? Dude goes to prison and can't be a part of his daughter's life? Ha ha? That's hilarious?

Well Ant-Man is a comedy. Scott Lang's prison time was never portrayed as especially serious.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

As already said, you're completely wrong here.

We had a smart Hulk as early as the first Hulk comics by Stan Lee, his personality/intelligence being more or less like the Gray Hulk (which became so famous with Peter David's run). Only after many issues (actually in Tales to Astonish #66) the first signs of the Savage childlike Hulk were seen. But even then, there were some times (like in TTA #69) where his original incarnation appeared.

Of course, during a big part of the 60s and a the 70s the Savage childlike persona was the dominant one; it became very famous!

However, in the early 80s (with Bill Mantlo) a very smart Hulk, controlled by Banner, lasted for many issues, before turning into the Mindless Hulk incarnation for a good time.

John Byrne came to make some changes in the character (his original plan was to remake the Hulk, with his original persona, mean and smarter, but also smaller and less powerful, like in the early days.), but he didn't last in the book, and Peter David took over, turning the Hulk into the original Gray Hulk at first ( for much of his run), and the creating the Merged Hulk , a combination of Grey Hulk and the Savage Hulk (whom Peter brought only for a couple of issues for the merging to happen). Peter wrote the character for 12 years, from the mid 80s to the mid 90s.

After he left the book, Marvel tried (with Byrne, again) to make the Hulk a mindless, murderous being. It didn't work and they had to call Paul Jenkins to change the book: his run featured the Grey, the Savage, and the Merged (called the "professor" ??) incarnations, and hinting on more incarnations (an evil, "devil Hulk"). That was the status quo for about 20 issues.

Then, Marvel (again) tries to turn the Hulk into a mindless monster. Not only he was mindless, he was mute for the most part (fans called him the "Zombie Hulk"). That was the Bruce Jones run, which, as an horror book, worked for a couple issues, but went nowhere fast and lasted too long).

After that, Marvel gave the keys to Greg Pak, and we know what happened: he wrote Planet Hulk, World War Hulk and had a long run in the Incredible Hulk, becoming one of the most popular writers of the Hulk ever. And his Hulk was one very close to the original: mean and considerably smart, not unlike the original!

Jason Aaron had a short run, after Pak, but he utilized a smart Hulk too, not unlike the one Pak wrote.

Mark Waid, after Aaron, tried to write the Hulk, but I don't think he even knew which Hulk he was writing: he was savage, sometimes mute and when he spoke, he sounded really dumb...

Gerry Duggan took over the book later, and he wrote a very smart (super intelligent) Hulk, of a short run.

That's it. The Savage Hulk has not been the main incarnation at all. That's been the case since the early 80s.

Still not seeing anything here except several different versions....none of which have ever been used as much as the "Savage Hulk".

Well Ant-Man is a comedy. Scott Lang's prison time was never portrayed as especially serious.

Of course it was serious. I know some won't want that to count because it doesn't fit the "jokey" narrative.

 

[TheVileOne]

Now that Hulk seems to be growing his own personality and intelligence, I hope that means he will expand his vocabulary and become more like the semi-intelligent Hulk with his more classic personality.

Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes sort of captured that classic Hulk personality.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Of course it was serious. I know some won't want that to count because it doesn't fit the "jokey" narrative.

Ant-Man's a comedy film. They even outright said it was a comedy film, they wore that with pride and there's nothing wrong with that. There are elements that are used to give Scott Lang conflict as a character, but let's not pretend it was some Shawshank Redemption tale of man trying to readjust to society.

Civil War, it is not.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

I think that there's issues with TWS and CW as good as they are. Things are done in those films that do under cut the drama, though not as severely as in other films. I for one think that the emotional connection between Cap and Bucky is nerfed since their relationship in TFA is thin and perfunctory. So it doesn't really resonate emotionally for me in TWS and... That's supposed to be a big part of Cap and Bucky's arcs in that film and leading into CW. With CW I will never not complain about that ending with Tony. The dramatic high point of the film is the fight with Bucky and Cap against Tony. It's ends so perfectly... But they had to undermine it in my opinion with the scene with Tony.

And that's my own issue with the MCU, including this film which I really enjoyed. The dramatic and character stuff seems to take a back seat to "FUN" and comedic elements. It works gangbusters for some characters and for others I honestly find it obnoxius. If nothing else as noted, the habit of down playing the pathos and ramping up the humor can make what should be important character stuff just sort of happen without really registering or resonating. I understand Roose's reaction quite well in not wanting to see that happen to stories he holds dear.

Totally agree, in fact I was intending to post something similar (though not as eloquent!) on my feelings for Thor: Ragnarok...
Great film, let down by too much humour. I get the vibe that since the success of GOTG Marvel or perhaps Disney want that level of humour injected into all Marvel films. And I do not think Thor or Captain America benefit from that level or amount of humour.

If you look back to the first Thor movie, it was fairly serious, with some bits of humour here and there. But it was Kenneth Brannagh directing... t:

 

[BigThor]

Man the amount of humour in this film is being sooooooo overblown.

I just got back from seeing Raganrok for the second time and it clearly has more serious scenes than humorous ones. Most of the humour was in the first half of the film anyway, the second half of the movie was quite serious.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

Hey BigThor, films, like most media, are purely subjective to each person. Doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong. t:

From my perspective, I saw too much humour and it took away some of my enjoyment. Was it a good film? Absolutely, but it would have been better with the humour being a little more toned down.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Yeah I'm getting to the point where I'm not gonna even respond when people blatanly choose to not see anything else but humor in Marvel films.

That's a bit strawman-ish. It's not "nothing but" humor and more the humor overshadowing the other elements. Hulk/Banner's arc is an example in TR. It's introduced and it should be pretty weighty, especially the way Banner explains it. At face value that's should be a big deal. And yet it's literally used as the set up for a joke before Hulk enters the final battle. Again... The joke lands (as does Banner ) but then I couldn't help wonder why introduce that into the story if it's dramatically weightless?

Again when there are things that should be huge dramatically and character wise they don't get explored. The revelation of Odin and Asgard's history should have had a gigantic effect on Thor. That info should have affected him deeply but it's not something that is given the space to ever register. That's what I and others mean. I was entertained by the movie but this is a glaring weakness in my eyes.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Totally agree, in fact I was intending to post something similar (though not as eloquent!) on my feelings for Thor: Ragnarok...
Great film, let down by too much humour. I get the vibe that since the success of GOTG Marvel or perhaps Disney want that level of humour injected into all Marvel films. And I do not think Thor or Captain America benefit from that level or amount of humour.

If you look back to the first Thor movie, it was fairly serious, with some bits of humour here and there. But it was Kenneth Brannagh directing... t:

Whatever issues that first film has I still maintain it's really under appreciated. I certainly prefer it to CA:TFA.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Ant-Man's a comedy film. They even outright said it was a comedy film, they wore that with pride and there's nothing wrong with that. There are elements that are used to give Scott Lang conflict as a character, but let's not pretend it was some Shawshank Redemption tale of man trying to readjust to society.

Civil War, it is not.

I agree that Ant-Man is not Shawshank or CW.

Which is why I never said it was like those movies. To clarify, I also did not say AM was like Citizen Kane.

What I did say was that there were definitely moments in Ant-Man that were serious moments. The portrayal of his separation from his daughter was one of those. Another was Hank Pym losing his wife.

 

[metaphysician]

The bigger issue with heading towards the Professor Hulk, is that the whole point of such a Hulk is that Banner and Hulk are truly merged. Its Hulk's body with Banner's mind, more or less. . . which means no transformations. This is problematic from a budget perspective, since it means the Hulk's presence in the movie is now all CGI, all the time. This might be fine as a supporting character who only has a limited presence, but would be rather iffy in, say, an Avengers film where Banner is one of the main cast throughout.

 

[GeoMFilms]

I read a good amount of this thread about Hulk a couple days ago and i didn't see this brought up...maybe i missed it, but it seemed like it was agreed upon that the Hulk has been in control for 2 years since Thor says "that was 2 years ago" (referring to the events of Age of Ultron)

But thats 2 years from Thors point of view. When Thor sees Loki didn't Loki say something like he was been at this planet for a couple weeks? Where as Thor had just arrived there?

So is it possible that when Hulk entered the planet....he could of been there for even longer? Has that been brought up yet?

 

[Golgo-13]

I read a good amount of this thread about Hulk a couple days ago and i didn't see this brought up...maybe i missed it, but it seemed like it was agreed upon that the Hulk has been in control for 2 years since Thor says "that was 2 years ago" (referring to the events of Age of Ultron)

But thats 2 years from Thors point of view. When Thor sees Loki didn't Loki say something like he was been at this planet for a couple weeks? Where as Thor had just arrived there?

So is it possible that when Hulk entered the planet....he could of been there for even longer? Has that been brought up yet?

I assumed when Loki said he had been on that planet for weeks, compared to Thor, was due to the fact he was tossed out of the bi-frost by Hela at a different point compared to Thor, which represented a different point in time. I don't think Hulk got to that planet bi-way of the bi-frost, so for Hulk it was a straight 2 years.....

 

[Themanofbat]

I assumed when Loki said he had been on that planet for weeks, compared to Thor, was due to the fact he was tossed out of the bi-frost by Hela at a different point compared to Thor, which represented a different point in time. I don't think Hulk got to that planet bi-way of the bi-frost, so for Hulk it was a straight 2 years.....

Speaking of how the Hulk got there, I didn't really get an explanation in the movie, other than the presumption that Valkyrie brought him there...

Did I miss something?

 

[RoastBeast]

Speaking of how the Hulk got there, I didn't really get an explanation in the movie, other than the presumption that Valkyrie brought him there...

Did I miss something?

I think there was something with the Quinjet getting sucked into a wormhole or something- in that video clip. I guess she 'scrapped' him after he got to Sakaar.