"The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 1

[FTCBIRDMAN]

You can have a story with a villain as the protagonist. Sweeney Todd is an example of that. The main character in Sweeney Todd is a barber that kills people and then those bodies get ground up and used to make savory pies that are sold in the bakeshop below his establishment. The main character in that is obviously not a hero but he's still a protagonist.

Sweeney Todd was a revenge story. He became a murderer to get revenge for losing his family and being sent to prison. That's not even close to the same character as the Joker. The Joker is a homicidal maniac. He kills people for fun. The Mrs. Lovett character is closer to the Joker than Sweeney Todd is

 

[Greens]

Juaquin isn't just any other great actor, though. From all accounts he's a bit picker than the rest and his involvement is enough to keep me interested. On top of that we've got Al Pacino, Alec Baldwin, and Marc Maron as well, the latter of whom has praised the script.

The other guy

 

[StarLord]

De Niro, not Pacino, Flint.

 

[Greens]

This should have been the movie to reunite Pacino, De Niro and Pesci.

 

[Dark Raven]

Will Kate McKinnon be in this as Martha Wayne?

 

[Greens]

Will Kate McKinnon be in this as Martha Wayne?

No, they're looking for an Eastern European actress so they can do a Melania Trump Martha.

 

[Guts]

Sweeney Todd was a revenge story. He became a murderer to get revenge for losing his family and being sent to prison. That's not even close to the same character as the Joker. The Joker is a homicidal maniac. He kills people for fun.

The Count of Monte Cristo is a revenge story as well. But Edmond Dantes doesn't go out of his way to murder people that didn't do anything wrong to him like Sweeney Todd does. Sweeney wants revenge on the judge but he will also kill anyone that comes in his shop for a shave. The only good people in that story are Anthony and Sweeney's daughter Johanna.

 

[Flint Marko]

The other guy

De Niro, not Pacino, Flint.

 

[The Joker]

Juaquin isn't just any other great actor, though. From all accounts he's a bit picker than the rest and his involvement is enough to keep me interested. On top of that we've got Al Pacino, Alec Baldwin, and Marc Maron as well, the latter of whom has praised the script. And on top of that it's ostensibly a smaller movie so WB isn't going to get their sticky little paws all over it in the editing room.

Deja vu from when Jared Leto was cast. An actor who is supposedly choosy about his roles. Look what he signed up for. Robert DeNiro has done some of the worst movies in the last few years. Tom Hardy praised the Suicide Squad script, and said he was gutted when he had to drop out of it. Now I'm not calling calling Maron a liar, just that I would take anything said with a huge grain of salt right now.

The Joker is a money maker to WB. He has more marketing potential than most of the characters they're doing right now. They'll get their sticky paws over it, regardless of how big or small this movie is. He and Harley are the primary reason the stinker that is SS made money.

 

[FTCBIRDMAN]

The Count of Monte Cristo is a revenge story as well. But Edmond Dantes doesn't go out of his way to murder people that didn't do anything wrong to him like Sweeney Todd does. Sweeney wants revenge on the judge but he will also kill anyone that comes in his shop for a shave. The only good people in that story are Anthony and Sweeney's daughter Johanna.

I don't understand your point. My point is that the Joker is a lunatic and a murderer who kills for fun and is not a character we root for. Yes we enjoy him as a character but he is not a "good guy." Which is my concern with this movie. You brought up Sweeney Todd. I was pointing out that Sweeney Todd was seeking revenge. He's still a character we can root for because of what was done to him. Like the Punisher. I was saying they are not even remotely comparable characters. I'm not sure what Edmund Dantes has to do with anything. I never mentioned the Count of Monte Cristo and I did not imply Sweeney Todd was comparable to him in anyway

 

[Greens]

Deja vu from when Jared Leto was cast.

You keep bringing this up but I don't see why it's relevant. Leto failed, so we should expect Phoenix to fail? As far as I can see Leto and Phoenix are independent events, one's success or failure doesn't influence the other. Almost every great actor has done dumb or bad ****, that's how it goes.

 

[The Joker]

You keep bringing this up but I don't see why it's relevant. Leto failed, so we should expect Phoenix to fail? As far as I can see Leto and Phoenix are independent events, one's success or failure doesn't influence the other. Almost every great actor has done dumb or bad ****, that's how it goes.

Its relevant because people keep mentioning Phoenix as an actor being choosy about his roles, when the same thing was said when Leto was cast, and at the end of the day it doesn't mean diddly squat. I don't expect Phoenix to fail, but I don't expect him to succeed either just because he has a rep for being picky.

I don't do blind faith either. There's no reason right now to think this movie has promise just because they've got some good actors signed on, or one of them praised the script. Been there, heard it before.

 

[FTCBIRDMAN]

You keep bringing this up but I don't see why it's relevant. Leto failed, so we should expect Phoenix to fail? As far as I can see Leto and Phoenix are independent events, one's success or failure doesn't influence the other. Almost every great actor has done dumb or bad ****, that's how it goes.

I think he's referring to the hype when Leto was cast. He was just coming off of an Oscar win and everyone was losing their minds when that casting news broke. It turned out pretty bad in a lot of people's opinions. I'm not entirely convinced it was Leto's fault with all the studio interference going on but that's a different story. I think people are just keeping expectations in check. My only concern is changing the characters and releasing a movie with the sole purpose of making a quick buck. As I've said before, I really hope I'm wrong. I think it's inspired casting I'm just hoping the movie is as good as the casting

 

[Flint Marko]

Deja vu from when Jared Leto was cast. An actor who is supposedly choosy about his roles. Look what he signed up for. Robert DeNiro has done some of the worst movies in the last few years. Tom Hardy praised the Suicide Squad script, and said he was gutted when he had to drop out of it. Now I'm not calling calling Maron a liar, just that I would take anything said with a huge grain of salt right now.

The Joker is a money maker to WB. He has more marketing potential than most of the characters they're doing right now. They'll get their sticky paws over it, regardless of how big or small this movie is. He and Harley are the primary reason the stinker that is SS made money.

Eh, we’ll see. I get the skepticism but until I see “damaged” on his forehead or something similar I’m going to remain cautiously optimistic.

 

[Greens]

I think he's referring to the hope when Leto was cast. He was just coming off of an Oscar win and everyone was losing their minds when that casting news broke. It turned out pretty bad in a lot of people's opinions. I'm not entirely convinced it was Leto's fault with all the studio interference going on but that's a different story. I think people are just keeping expectations in check. My only concern is changing the characters and releasing a movie with the sole purpose of making a quick buck. As I've said before, I really hope I'm wrong. I think it's inspired casting I'm just hoping the movie is as good as the casting

But people weren't wrong to have hope with Leto, regardless of the outcome.

 

[Dark Raven]

No, they're looking for an Eastern European actress so they can do a Melania Trump Martha.

They can get Laura Benanti as Melania/ Martha then:

[YT]Wh1wctQNKRM[/YT]

 

[FTCBIRDMAN]

But people weren't wrong to have hope with Leto, regardless of the outcome.

No they certainly weren't. He's a great actor who could have made a fantastic Joker. I'm just saying some people aren't going to go nuts over this casting news because they feel like they got burned before. Leto should have been great. Phoenix should be great. But there is nothing these actors can do when the film hits the editing room and WB starts fiddling around with things. I think their track record speaks for itself in that regard

 

[Greens]

No they certainly weren't. He's a great actor who could have made a fantastic Joker. I'm just saying some people aren't going to go nuts over this casting news because they feel like they got burned before. Leto should have been great. Phoenix should be great. But there is nothing these actors can do when the film hits the editing room and WB starts fiddling around with things. I think their track record speaks for itself in that regard

Oh, it does. I still can't believe they ****ed up THREE films in the editing room. I do think the lower budget helps in that regard. They're less likely to panic about making back their investment.

 

[The Joker]

No they certainly weren't. He's a great actor who could have made a fantastic Joker. I'm just saying some people aren't going to go nuts over this casting news because they feel like they got burned before. Let should have been great. Phoenix should be great. But there is nothing these actors can do when the film hits the editing room and WB starts fiddling around with things. I think their track record speaks for itself in that regard

Exactly. If this was the MCU, or Nolan tackling another Batman movie, or some franchise with a good rep that has earned the goodwill of its audience, then I'd be optimistic. People can have all the hope and optimism they want, not saying they are wrong to. What I'm saying is right now I don't have any reason to be optimistic. Need more than a good cast line up to make me believe there is something to be hopeful for here.

DCEU is infamous for wasting great actors.

 

[Guts]

I don't understand your point. My point is that the Joker is a lunatic and a murderer who kills for fun and is not a character we root for. Yes we enjoy him as a character but he is not a "good guy." Which is my concern with this movie. You brought up Sweeney Todd. I was pointing out that Sweeney Todd was seeking revenge. He's still a character we can root for because of what was done to him. Like the Punisher. I was saying they are not even remotely comparable characters. I'm not sure what Edmund Dantes has to do with anything. I never mentioned the Count of Monte Cristo and I did not imply Sweeney Todd was comparable to him in anyway

I brought up The Count of Monte Cristo because you mentioned Sweeney Todd being a revenge story and how Joker and Sweeney are not comparable because Joker kills for the fun of it. Even though Sweeney kills people that aren't even related to his revenge. But one point of this movie is to make the Joker into a character we can root for. The Joker movie isn't going to be about the character day to day life committing crimes but it's going to be an origin story based on Martin Scorsese's movie King of Comedy.

 

[The Guard]

What kind of confused me is, Phoenix is 44 and if Thomas Wayne is alive in this movie, that implies that Bruce is a child. So when Bruce grows up to become Batman he'll be fighting a 60+ year old Joker?

That's a pretty classic protagonist/antagonist dynamic. A younger hero taking on an older villain.

I don't see the issue with this hypothetical, especially since The Joker tends to be a more gimmicky, cerebral villain. We're not talking about Bane here.

 

[MaceB]

Okay, so right off the bat, folks are defending this movie right now because it's an Elseworld tale. Fine.. but that better mean that WB markets it as such. Because if they don't and the film breeds confusion, then there will be a backlash. Count on it.

Second, I agree with folks who say one step at a time. Develop and perfect the current continuity that you have going, and then once it has hit it's peak, then you deconstruct it. Feeling comfortable with the normative characters makes the deconstruction all the more satisfying. It'd be more effective later down the road. This feels like a money grab and screw the film's quality kind of decision. I don't know that... but it certainly would be in line with what we've seen of WB/DC so far.

Folks are saying, "But Phoenix is so picky about his roles!" Sure, but The Joker is the role of a lifetime. It offers a big paycheck because the character is well known; at the same time, it offers tons of freedom for the actor to take risks and to define the character however he chooses. Most actors would kill to have a shot at The Joker.

 

[Mindreaper21]

Okay, so right off the bat, folks are defending this movie right now because it's an Elseworld tale.Fine.. but that better mean that WB markets it as such. Because if they don't and the film breeds confusion, then there will be a backlash. Count on it.

Second, I agree with folks who say one step at a time. Develop and perfect the current continuity that you have going, and then once it has hit it's peak, then you deconstruct it. Feeling comfortable with the normative characters makes the deconstruction all the more satisfying. It'd be more effective later down the road. This feels like a money grab and screw the film's quality kind of decision. I don't know that... but it certainly would be in line with what we've seen of WB/DC so far.

Folks are saying, "But Phoenix is so picky about his roles!" Sure, but The Joker is the role of a lifetime. It offers a big paycheck because the character is well known; at the same time, it offers tons of freedom for the actor to take risks and to define the character however he chooses. Most actors would kill to have a shot at The Joker.

Films are technically Elseworld, so there's no need. I'm more interested in what new content can be brought to the character. Until I start seeing photos, I'll be optimistic.

 

[MaceB]

Films are technically Elseworld, so there's no need. I'm more interested in what new content can be brought to the character. Until I start seeing photos, I'll be optimistic.

What do you mean "technically Elseworld?" How will the audience know that this doesn't effect the DC Movie Universe proper?

 

[The Guard]

...because it apparently won't affect the DCEU movie universe?

What are people going to get confused over, exactly?