The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part 8

[Willie Lumpkin]

Call it common sense.

This is the bottom line. Studio execs will say all kinds of crap out of ignorance or an intention to mislead, but if you look at it very simply, these properties need to be defined as distinct entities.

The Fantastic Four rights include a set of characters that can be mixed and matched in a number of Fantastic Four (or Silver Surfer, or Dr. Doom etc.) films.

The X-Men rights include a set of characters that can be mixed and matched in a number of X-Men (or Wolverine or Gambit etc.) films.

The Spider-Man rights include a set of characters that can be mixed and matched in a number of Spider-man (or Venom or Sinster Six etc.) films.

Each one of those properties is a unique set and there's absolutely no logical reason to assume they can be crossed over without Marvel's specific permission.

What if Fox and Sony decided they wanted to do a Spider-Man / X-Men film? Would any of us believe they would have the ability to do that without Marvel signing off? Of course not, and here's no reason to believe that separate, unique properties held by one studio are any different.

Fox doesn't 'own' the rights to either FF or X-Men as people often mistakenly say. They are allowed to use those characters under very specifically defined terms. Marvel still owns them.

Why does Fox not have the rights to The Kree, or Black Panther or The Inhumans or other characters that first appeared in FF? Because those characters weren't included in the very clearly defined set of characters that were included in the FF rights. Wolverine was not included in the very clearly defined set of characters that were included in the FF rights, so he won't appear in an FF film unless Marvel says he can. Simple.

At the start of the process, those properties would have needed to remain distinct. If Fox didn't make an FF film, Marvel would have the right to take back the rights and/or sell those rights to another interested studio. They wouldn't have allowed the prospect of cross-overs to cloud that relatively simple concept. Why has there been no talk of using Dr. Doom or the Silver Surfer in an X-Men film? There's a simple answer - it's not allowed. Otherwise Fox could keep the rights indefinitely by just putting an FF character in an X-Men film.

It doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever that the contracts would have allowed for such a mess - no matter how much some at Fox might want to imagine they do. Kinberg can say all he wants in public or private, but nothing he says will convince me to throw common sense out the window.

 

[Surfer]

This is the bottom line. Studio execs will say all kinds of crap out of ignorance or an intention to mislead, but if you look at it very simply, these properties need to be defined as distinct entities.

The Fantastic Four rights include a set of characters that can be mixed and matched in a number of Fantastic Four (or Silver Surfer, or Dr. Doom etc.) films.

The X-Men rights include a set of characters that can be mixed and matched in a number of X-Men (or Wolverine or Gambit etc.) films.

The Spider-Man rights include a set of characters that can be mixed and matched in a number of Spider-man (or Venom or Sinster Six etc.) films.

Each one of those properties is a unique set and there's absolutely no logical reason to assume they can be crossed over without Marvel's specific permission.

What if Fox and Sony decided they wanted to do a Spider-Man / X-Men film? Would any of us believe they would have the ability to do that without Marvel signing off? Of course not, and here's no reason to believe that separate, unique properties held by one studio are any different.

Fox doesn't 'own' the rights to either FF or X-Men as people often mistakenly say. They are allowed to use those characters under very specifically defined terms. Marvel still owns them.

Why does Fox not have the rights to The Kree, or Black Panther or The Inhumans or other characters that first appeared in FF? Because those characters weren't included in the very clearly defined set of characters that were included in the FF rights. Wolverine was not included in the very clearly defined set of characters that were included in the FF rights, so he won't appear in an FF film unless Marvel says he can. Simple.

At the start of the process, those properties would have needed to remain distinct. If Fox didn't make an FF film, Marvel would have the right to take back the rights and/or sell those rights to another interested studio. They wouldn't have allowed the prospect of cross-overs to cloud that relatively simple concept. Why has their been no talk of using Dr. Doom or the Silver Surfer in an X-Men film? There's a simple answer - it's not allowed. Otherwise Fox could keep the rights indefinitely by just putting an FF character in an X-Men film.

It doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever that the contracts would have allowed for such a mess - no matter how much Fox some at Fox might want to imagine they do. Kinberg can say all he wants in public or private, but nothing he says will convince me to throw common sense out the window.

I agree with everything you were saying above. Despite not knowing exactly what the contracts between Marvel and Fox stipulate, I think it would be silly to think Fox can crossover these specific groups of characters without Marvel's permission. Especially since the contracts were drawn up separately. Fox acquired the rights to use the X-Men characters long before they purchased the rights to use the Fantastic Four ones. Therefore, there were clearly 2 different contracts and in my mind I don't feel there is any chance the characters from one contract could be combined with the characters from the other contract. Especially since back when both of these rights were purchased studios were not thinking about team ups. Marvel started that process when they formed their own studio, but that happened after both the X-Men and Fantastic Four character rights had already been sold, so I doubt Fox would have had the foresight to have thought to include such a stipulation.

Surfer

 

[Kanon]

Otherwise Fox could keep the rights indefinitely by just putting an FF character in an X-Men film.

Case closed. It can't be simpler than that. Fox can't do anything like that without Marvel approval, and nowadays can't count on that. End of story

 

[Surfer]

Case closed. It can't be simpler than that. Fox can't do anything like that without Marvel approval, and nowadays can't count on that. End of story

Well while I agree that Fox most likely can not combine characters from the Fantastic Four with the X-Men without Marvel's consent, I am not sure that adding a character from Fantastic Four to X-men or vice versa (were they able to do so) would meet their contractual obligation. I think the requirement may be that they need to make a movie based on the Fantastic Four, or at least based on the specific group of characters that reside within that contract. Once again it is hard to know the specifics of what does and does not meet the requirements of them keeping the contract so you may be right the character appearing in another movie might be enough, but I don't think we will ever know this for sure.

Surfer

 

[Orba]

Well while I agree that Fox most likely can not combine characters from the Fantastic Four with the X-Men without Marvel's consent, I am not sure that adding a character from Fantastic Four to X-men or vice versa (were they able to do so) would meet their contractual obligation.

Thats part of the problem, what would be the contractual obligation? If you have teh X-Men and FF in the same film is it an X-Men film or a FF film? They have different rights contracts that give Marvel a different cut of the money made, in a cross over which percentage would Marvel be entitled to?. There is the renewal clause, in a crossover would it count for the X-Men or the FF, and what would decide which franchise got renewed? These are all details that would need to be known if Fox wanted to do a cross over, and if the contracts don't already include those details then I don't see any way that Fox could do a crossover without going back to Marvel and asking for the contracts to be amended with those details (something that is never going to happen).

 

[Endeavor]

please please please let them make that crossover movie, please!

months before release, Disney legal team sues for breach of both licensing contracts, both properties revert back. movie never gets released, ala Cormans, and FOX can go suck it.

please please please

 

[Surfer]

please please please let them make that crossover movie, please!

months before release, Disney legal team sues for breach of both licensing contracts, both properties revert back. movie never gets released, ala Cormans, and FOX can go suck it.

please please please

That would be a unexpected twist.

Surfer

 

[Orba]

This has been a week full of unexpected twists so who knows t:

 

[Surfer]

Thats part of the problem, what would be the contractual obligation? If you have teh X-Men and FF in the same film is it an X-Men film or a FF film? They have different rights contracts that give Marvel a different cut of the money made, in a cross over which percentage would Marvel be entitled to?. There is the renewal clause, in a crossover would it count for the X-Men or the FF, and what would decide which franchise got renewed? These are all details that would need to be known if Fox wanted to do a cross over, and if the contracts don't already include those details then I don't see any way that Fox could do a crossover without going back to Marvel and asking for the contracts to be amended with those details (something that is never going to happen).

I agree 100%.

Surfer

 

[Surfer]

This has been a week full of unexpected twists so who knows t:

True, and I would love it if all of the properties were back with Marvel. However, if I had to pick one to stay where it's at I would definitely say leave X-Men where it is.

Surfer

 

[Art Freak]

X-Men has always felt separate anyway and the universe is so vast and dense that I'd rather it keep its own continuity (muddled as it may be). Now, Spidey and FF are a different story.

 

[Kelly]

X-Men has always felt separate anyway and the universe is so vast and dense that I'd rather it keep its own continuity (muddled as it may be). Now, Spidey and FF are a different story.

Yeah, I've always thought this would be a much more seamless cross over.

 

[Kelly]

If Marvel gets the FF back, what about a "Civil War" movie.....?

 

[metaphysician]

I think some people would still be in denial and would try to find a way to spin it "positively".

Or they'd just attack its authenticity, and claim it was fake material inserted into the link. Anything but admit that their support for the movie has nothing to do with the movie itself, and everything to do with hostility towards Marvel.

( Which I'm sure we will see demonstrated in spades come next summer, when the movie comes out and its atrociousness is undeniable by any rational person )

 

[metaphysician]

Who would have thought a couple of weeks ago that we could be in a situation where Spider-Man could be heading back to Marvel control before the Fantastic Four.

*raises hand* I've always said Spidey was more likely to return. It has little to do with the quality of the movies and everything to do with Sony. They have a better working relationship with Marvel *and* a more precarious financial position in the industry. That's a formula for some kind of deal with Marvel/Disney.

 

[metaphysician]

Sony only has Spidey though.

Marvel doesn't have any leverage to X-men to get Fantastic Four back. Fox was willing to let DD go in favor Fantastic Four.

Not exactly. I don't think Fox said "we will trade DD for FF". I'm pretty sure they said "Mwahaha, now we know what you really want!" They just miscalculated their ability to actually get a DD movie out on time, and paid for it.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

If Marvel gets the FF back, what about a "Civil War" movie.....?

*cough cough*.... Captain America (3): Civil War ....*cough cough* already getting it. *cough*

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Case closed. It can't be simpler than that. Fox can't do anything like that without Marvel approval, and nowadays can't count on that. End of story

I wonder if some of this talk about cross-overs from Kinberg and Millar is because they're 'idea guys' who don't get bogged down with the legal details and politics.

Kinberg may just be saying: "Here's where I want to go." to the public and his bosses and figuring they'll work out any legal entanglements.

But as you point out, they aren't just entanglements. When it comes to the toxic relationship between Marvel and Fox at this point, Fox is likely to find out they're dealing with a brick wall.

 

[Art Freak]

I wonder if some of this talk about cross-overs from Kinberg and Millar is because they're 'idea guys' who don't get bogged down with the legal details and politics.

Kinberg may just be saying: "Here's where I want to go." to the public and his bosses and figuring they'll work out any legal entanglements.

But as you point out, they aren't just entanglements. When it comes to the toxic relationship between Marvel and Fox at this point, Fox is likely to find out they're dealing with a brick wall.

Makes sense to me. It would explain the discrepancy.

 

[Kelly]

*cough cough*.... Captain America (3): Civil War ....*cough cough* already getting it. *cough*

I know but one with ALL of them in it. That would be nice....

I mean, if they want to get real and gritty, what the F4 went through in that arc was very REAL.

 

[Eddie]

I think it's too late for Civil War with the FF involved. If Marvel gets everything (or at least everything except X-Men, which they really should get but is less necessary) then I think the most likely "event" films Marvel would start planning would be Secret War or The Coming of Galactus.

 

[Orba]

I wonder if some of this talk about cross-overs from Kinberg and Millar is because they're 'idea guys' who don't get bogged down with the legal details and politics.

Kinberg may just be saying: "Here's where I want to go." to the public and his bosses and figuring they'll work out any legal entanglements.

But as you point out, they aren't just entanglements. When it comes to the toxic relationship between Marvel and Fox at this point, Fox is likely to find out they're dealing with a brick wall.

I always find it a bit strange that you have Kinberg deeply involved with the Fox Marvel franchises that Disney appear to actively hate, and heavily involved with Disney's revamp of Star Wars (both tv and films).

 

[justanotherguy]

This Sony Hack is going to lead to Spider-Man going back. Once that goes back, the snowball effect will take place, at least with F4. Just wish they could get it done before Infinity War.

 

[Eddie]

I always find it a bit strange that you have Kinberg deeply involved with the Fox Marvel franchises that Disney appear to actively hate, and heavily involved with Disney's revamp of Star Wars (both tv and films).

From what I've heard, Disney isn't really that heavily involved in their Marvel subsidiary (other than marketing and merchandising), and I think the same goes for Lucasfilm. I've heard Marvel pretty much let's Marvel Studios run themselves since they do a good job doing what they're doing. I imagine Lucas doesn't have to approve their hiring decisions with the Marvel guys at all.

Or we could go all conspiracy theory on this thing and say Disney's trying to lure Kinberg away from Fox as he's one of their bigger assets right now and the Trank hiring was a preemptive strike on that Fantastic Four sequel that probably won't happen anyway.

 

[HAMMER]

I always find it a bit strange that you have Kinberg deeply involved with the Fox Marvel franchises that Disney appear to actively hate, and heavily involved with Disney's revamp of Star Wars (both tv and films).

Marvel Studios and Lucasfilm are still 2 separate divisions under Disney. Different working relationships with different people. It is a bit odd though.