The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part 8

[Dasher10]

I'm convinced that Sony was working off old info with that crossover.

Simon Kinberg confirmed months ago that a crossover was NOT happening; a shared universe is not being made.

http://www.firstshowing.net/2014/simon-kinberg-says-x-men-fantastic-four-wont-share-universe/

I think that we'll see some of the OT cast appear as cameos in the FF sequel. Other than that, I don't see a crossover happening for a while. Mostly because having just reached the 80s, I feel like there needs to be some 90s and 2000s love. You can't just recast/reboot and then not follow up with that cast.

 

[starscream22]

One last thought I had about the Sony leaks and Marvel's efforts to incorporate Spider-Man back in their universe.... the fact that we now have confirmation that Marvel has been actively working to recover an outstanding property.... doesn't it stand to reason that they very well may have made similar efforts to recover the FF? We know they wanted Silver Surfer and Galactus. I mention it because I've occasionally seen some posters around here angry that Marvel isn't trying hard enough to bring the FF home but how do we know they haven't tried? It takes two to tango.

Yeah no doubt about it. But odds are the end result of that meeting faired far worse than Sony's talks.

And I still don't think Fox can cross those two franchises over w/o Disney's concent. That dumb exec at Sony could know about as much about Fox's contracts as we do. So I wouldn't put too much stock in that since Singer is a hack and would've added a F4 cameo in DOFP if they could. Besides that execs pitch to Amy Pascal was to pimp out everything they can in the Spidey-verse so it doesn't matter if Fox could crossover their crap or not.

As for the cancelation of F4 comics not hurting Fox, well it won't help them anymore either.

Imagine Marvel making this epic new F4 arc with new FF Characters and everything. Fox would be able to use it all and potentially make 100's of millions off it. They already have to eat crow with X-Men so putting F4 on ice for now is a no-brainer.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Yep! This seems to be forgotten by most. F4 can't be crossed over with Xmen with out Marvel/Disney's permission and with the bad blood right now, it ain't going to happen. But to be honest, it shouldn't. These properties have NOTHING in common and shouldn't be allowed to crossover. This is horrible news.

Has that actually been stated or is that one of those internet things that gets passed around like fact until it isn't? (Batman won't share the screen with Superman cause Nolan says so, then boom, Nolan's gone, and here we go.)

 

[TheComicbookKid]

I think that we'll see some of the OT cast appear as cameos in the FF sequel. Other than that, I don't see a crossover happening for a while. Mostly because having just reached the 80s, I feel like there needs to be some 90s and 2000s love. You can't just recast/reboot and then not follow up with that cast.

The time traveling/alternate reality jumping Fantastic Four can't reach the 80s?

DOFP's mind traveling has made it easier to make a connection between the universes without it making so they actually enter each other's universe full-on.

 

[Eddie]

Has that actually been stated or is that one of those internet things that gets passed around like fact until it isn't? (Batman won't share the screen with Superman cause Nolan says so, then boom, Nolan's gone, and here we go.)

Zak Penn, who worked on the X-franchise, has said that he was told by Fox the X-Men and Fantastic Four couldn't cross over with each other. He was pitching it years ago. Also, you're Batman example is a pretty interesting choice, considering Nolan's Batman never did meet Superman.

Oh, and you're also wrong about the potential Spider-Man deal not having any effect on Fox's properties. Both fans and some general news sites are already calling for Fox to give up on the Fantastic Four. You know, just like they were doing after The Amazing Spider-Man 2 came out. Fox relies on consumer support with these movies. If they piss off their potential audience, they won't get their money anymore. If the Spidey deal happens, the public will know that two companies can work together to get the Marvel characters into one cohesive film universe. That will put pressure on Fox to get a similar deal done with Marvel (I firmly believe Marvel has tried dealing with Fox and Fox is the problem, but after the Spidey summit in January we could be in a new era when it comes to these deals).

 

[Dasher10]

The time traveling/alternate reality jumping Fantastic Four can't reach the 80s?

DOFP's mind traveling has made it easier to make a connection between the universes without it making so they actually enter each other's universe full-on.

Except the only stories that make sense for them to cross over in are The Coming of Galactus (where the world being eaten in the past would stop the FF from ever crossing over), Ultimate X4 (which was underwhelming), X-Men vs Fantastic Four (which requires Shadowcat being injured in a a previous X-Men film and needs to fast-forward the timeline to the late-90s at the earliest), Secret Wars (which is entirely dependent on who owns the Beyonder which means Fox may not be able to do this one), Ultimatum (one of the most hated Marvel stories of all time and requires the FF to break up and most of the X-Men to die), Onslaught (which has the same problem as Galactus) and Betrayal in the Bermuda Triangle (which requires Doom's redemption beforehand and also needs Marvel's permission to use the Scorpius aliens).

So it makes more sense to have the X-Men play catch up with X-Factor and Fantastic Four acting as previews for where the series is headed. I'd save Gambit for after Apocalypse just to not age him too much and set Gambit in the early 1990s. The timeline would work like this.

2015 - Fantastic Four (2015)
2016 - Deadpool (1978), Apocalypse (1983)
2017 - Wolverine: The Lazarus Project (1987), Fantastic Four 2 (2017), Gambit (1990)
2018 - X-Force (1992)
2019 - Deadpool 2 (1993), Fantastic Four 3 (2019), X-Men: X-Cutioner's Song (1994)
2020 - Wolverine: Weapon X, Lies and Videotape (1996), X-Force: Assault on Weapon Plus (1997)
2021 - X-Men: Messiah Complex (1999-2000 New Year), Deadpool 3 (2002), Fantastic Four 4 (2021)
2022 - X-Force: Phalanx Convenant (2004), Wolverine: Final Execution (2005)
2023 - X-Men: Fatal Attractions (2006), Fantastic Four 4 (2023), Deadpool 4 (2009)
2024 - X-Force: Necrosha (2012), Wolverine: Enemy of the State (2015)
2025 - X-Men: Proteus (2017), Fantastic Four 5 (2025), Deadpool 5 (2019)
2026 - X-Force - The Dark Angel Saga (2022), Wolverine: Not Dead Yet (2025)
2027 - Onslaught (This is dependent on whether or not Marvel and Fox can agree to co-produce films. If they can, then this is the team up between the X-Men, Fantastic Four, and X-Force that officially destroys the entire universe at the same time that the MCU goes through the Time Runs Out story to close out Phase 5. A new universe is created from the two merging that keeps the continuity of both but with mild alterations for characters like Viper and Quicksilver.)

Either that or just jump ahead to the OT cast after Apocalypse. Problem solved. And just skipping ahead makes Galactus an event film and Wolverine 3 to be Kitty Pryde and Wolverine.

And if the Spider-Man deal happens, I can see Fox and Marvel working together. Apocalypse will have ended that trilogy and it'll be a clean slate for the X-Men in the present day. With Apocalypse being described as a "final chapter," I can see the present day being a reboot. The only catch is that Cyclops, Phoenix and Storm (probably also Wolverine) will be recast and audiences will just be asked to forget their ages since it's just a film. Just recast and keep continuity to keep them forever young.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Zak Penn, who worked on the X-franchise, has said that he was told by Fox the X-Men and Fantastic Four couldn't cross over with each other. He was pitching it years ago. Also, you're Batman example is a pretty interesting choice, considering Nolan's Batman never did meet Superman.

Nolan's Batman didn't. Right. Cause Nolan owns.. oh wait.

There's a difference between Marvel (owner of the property) saying no versus Fox/Singer/Executive producer/writer saying no. They eventually move on like Nolan did. Jeff Robinov couldn't exploit DC's properties and then he left and now we have FLASH, ARROW, and the movies.

Zack Penn's statement doesn't mean anything.

Oh, and you're also wrong about the potential Spider-Man deal not having any effect on Fox's properties. Both fans and some general news sites are already calling for Fox to give up on the Fantastic Four. You know, just like they were doing after The Amazing Spider-Man 2 came out. Fox relies on consumer support with these movies. If they piss off their potential audience, they won't get their money anymore. If the Spidey deal happens, the public will know that two companies can work together to get the Marvel characters into one cohesive film universe. That will put pressure on Fox to get a similar deal done with Marvel (I firmly believe Marvel has tried dealing with Fox and Fox is the problem, but after the Spidey summit in January we could be in a new era when it comes to these deals).

Audience? Most people don't know the difference between DC and Marvel and don't care.

People aren't going to put pressure on Fox. Don't confuse comic fans with the GA.

 

[Eddie]

At this point, I don't think Marvel's interested in bringing in the baggage from the X-verse. I think they would have considered it at one time, but I think that ship may have sailed. From the sound of the potential Spider-Man deal, it may rely on Sony ditching any previous film continuity (Webb or Raimi). Also, jumping ahead from Apocalypse would have been problem solved... if Singer hadn't swapped Juggernaut out for Quicksilver after hearing Joss Whedon would be using the character. My guess? You know how today's Spidey info reveals Marvel wants Avi Arad to stay the **** away from the potential new Spider-Man? Yeah, they're gonna want the same from some of the X-crew.

 

[Kanon]

Again with the cross over thing? I thougth we agreed that it was common sense that Fox owning two separated IPs didn't give them the right to combine them

 

[Eddie]

Nolan's Batman didn't. Right. Cause Nolan owns.. oh wait.

There's a difference between Marvel (owner of the property) saying no versus Fox/Singer/Executive producer/writer saying no. They eventually move on like Nolan did. Jeff Robinov couldn't exploit DC's properties and then he left and now we have FLASH, ARROW, and the movies.

Zack Penn's statement doesn't mean anything.


Audience? Most people don't know the difference between DC and Marvel and don't care.

People aren't going to put pressure on Fox. Don't confuse comic fans with the GA.

Most audience members don't know the difference between Marvel Studios and other films. That's why Marvel continues to outperform the competition and every other movie studio is terrified of releasing a movie the same day as a Marvel Studios film (multiple films, including one about cinema icon King Kong just moved far away from Dr. Strange. Dr. freakin' Strange).

And you're Batman example stinks because the new Batman is not in the Nolanverse continuity. That's like saying the Nick Fury television movie wasn't in the same continuity as the Captain America television movie, but now the characters are in movies together! It's a completely meaningless comparison.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Again with the cross over thing? I thougth we agreed that it was common sense that Fox owning two separated IPs didn't give them the right to combine them

Who knows. People were confused about the possible X-Factor series cause they thought Marvel owned the tv rights so Fox can't make a show without their approval, which we know they wouldn't give now.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Most audience members don't know the difference between Marvel Studios and other films. That's why Marvel continues to outperform the competition and every other movie studio is terrified of releasing a movie the same day as a Marvel Studios film (multiple films, including one about cinema icon King Kong just moved far away from Dr. Strange. Dr. freakin' Strange).

No one cares that Gunn isn't allowing GoTG 2 to cross over with the MCU. People will see the trailer and decide if they want to see the sequel. They don't care that HULK or CA aren't crossing over in the shared universe.

And you're Batman example stinks because the new Batman is not in the Nolanverse continuity. That's like saying the Nick Fury television movie wasn't in the same continuity as the Captain America television movie, but now the characters are in movies together! It's a completely meaningless comparison.

NO it doesn't. Nolan's edict stood only while he was around. Jeff Robinov left and so did Nolan. DC's mindset towards their franchises changed.

Who the heck is Zack Penn to the 2014 X-men franchise? A nobody. The head of Fox now isn't the head of Fox when Penn was around.

Like I said, if it's Marvel saying no then fine. Otherwise, no one knows anything for sure.

 

[Eddie]

Who knows. People were confused about the possible X-Factor series cause they thought Marvel owned the tv rights so Fox can't make a show without their approval, which we know they wouldn't give now.

As there has been absolutely no news on that supposed X-Factor series, it may very well be that Fox was incorrect in assuming they could actually do one. If television rights are for animation or live action, they don't have the rights (Marvel's done multiple animated series). If live action is seperate, it's a bit odd that the Mutant X case ruled that Marvel had those (they just can't use them without making an arrangement with Fox).

 

[Eddie]

No one cares that Gunn isn't allowing GoTG 2 to cross over with the MCU. People will see the trailer and decide if they want to see the sequel. They don't care that HULK or CA aren't crossing over in the shared universe.


NO it doesn't. Nolan's edict stood only while he was around. Jeff Robinov left and so did Nolan. DC's mindset towards their franchises changed.

Who the heck is Zack Penn to the 2014 X-men franchise? A nobody. The head of Fox now isn't the head of Fox when Penn was around.

Like I said, if it's Marvel saying no then fine. Otherwise, no one knows anything for sure.

James Gunn never said that. He just said that it mostly stands on its own. He already confirmed that Thanos connects it. Guardians of the Galaxy is 100% part of the same universe as the rest of Marvel's films.

You have no idea what you're talking about. GotG2 is a direct sequel to a film so ingrained in the MCU that it gave us a detailed description of the plot device for Avengers 3 & 4. To quote a film, "Donny, you're out of you're element!"

 

[TheComicbookKid]

As there has been absolutely no news on that supposed X-Factor series, it may very well be that Fox was incorrect in assuming they could actually do one. If television rights are for animation or live action, they don't have the rights (Marvel's done multiple animated series). If live action is seperate, it's a bit odd that the Mutant X case ruled that Marvel had those (they just can't use them without making an arrangement with Fox).

That's my entire point. Without seeing the contracts, none of use know what "loopholes" allow for what. Fox may have rights to live action, but they may just have to pay an fee to Marvel that Marvel didn't have to pay in the case of live action cause they own the rights. Remember, Fox's whole case against them was using the term Mutant, not the show itself. Marvel wasn't exploiting any of the X-Men.

Fox has thousands of lawyers at their disposal. I think that would have been their first question before thinking they could make a tv series.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

James Gunn never said that. He just said that it mostly stands on its own. He already confirmed that Thanos connects it. Guardians of the Galaxy is 100% part of the same universe as the rest of Marvel's films.

You have no idea what you're talking about. GotG2 is a direct sequel to a film so ingrained in the MCU that it gave us a detailed description of the plot device for Avengers 3 & 4. To quote a film, "Donny, you're out of you're element!"

Your reading skills are atrocious. I said they are in the same universe, but Gunn wants his human element, Quill, to remain on isolated ground for now.

That doesn't mean he will never find his way back to Earth or vice versa. Can't and won't don't mean the same thing.

Thanos connecting the two tangentially makes my point about how FF and X-men can cross without the two teams meeting. Thanks for helping my point!!!

 

[Eddie]

If the Sony hack has taught us anything, it's that studio executives don't really think very much.

Just throwing this out there, we pretty much know that Marvel film rights are so complicated studios often don't know what they can or cannot use until they check with legal (which often isn't the first step). The Badoon were in Guardians of the Galaxy all the way up to the concept art stage. Then they found out they couldn't actually use them and renamed them to a race they owned (some official concept art still says Badoon). We know from early interviews that Bug was considered for the team, but Gunn later said Marvel can't use him. Blade had an alternate ending teasing Morbius, a character the producers later found out they couldn't actually use in the sequel. Basically, you'd be surprised how little production crews actually know about legal dealings.

EDIT: And my damn reading skills aren't atrocious. I know what you said and what you said is that Gunn wasn't allowing a crossover. Sheesh.

 

[Dasher10]

Who knows. People were confused about the possible X-Factor series cause they thought Marvel owned the tv rights so Fox can't make a show without their approval, which we know they wouldn't give now.

Who says they wouldn't? There was never much in the way of X-Men merch in the past since the merch for the first X-Men film didn't sell and Marvel isn't going to commission more while Fox gets a cut of the profits since the last time they tried back in 2000, they lost money. The only X-Men merch that sold happened to be the video games, even then, only the first Mutant Academy and movie games for X2, X3 and XMO because having anything to do with the films meant that Marvel would be splitting profits with both Fox and Activision.

And now Activision only wants to make Call of Duty and Skylanders. So anything that isn't a mobile game only loosely based on the film isn't going to happen. Quicksilver didn't change much since you were never going to see any X-Men merch regardless and you still won't unless Fox decides to hand over all merch rights when they have nothing that Marvel can offer them.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

EDIT: And my damn reading skills aren't atrocious. I know what you said and what you said is that Gunn wasn't allowing a crossover. Sheesh.

Your sheeshing skills are nauseating!

 

[Eddie]

Who says they wouldn't? There was never much in the way of X-Men merch in the past since the merch for the first X-Men film didn't sell and Marvel isn't going to commission more while Fox gets a cut of the profits since the last time they tried back in 2000, they lost money. The only X-Men merch that sold happened to be the video games, even then, only the first Mutant Academy and movie games for X2, X3 and XMO because having anything to do with the films meant that Marvel would be splitting profits with both Fox and Activision.

And now Activision only wants to make Call of Duty and Skylanders. So anything that isn't a mobile game only loosely based on the film isn't going to happen. Quicksilver didn't change much since you were never going to see any X-Men merch regardless and you still won't unless Fox decides to hand over all merch rights when they have nothing that Marvel can offer them.

Just to add to that game bit, Activision seems to have lost the X-Men game rights anyway. All of their digital versions were pulled some time ago (indicative that they lost the right to continue making and distributing them). It seems Deadpool was their last game with the license.

 

[Surfer]

The thing that seems to me to be most problematic regarding a crossover with the X-men and Fantastic Four (besides these possible legal issues) is the styles of the films they are connecting. I mean never mind that the stories are completely opposite. Fantastic Four are celebrity heroes with powers essentially and their story is very much about the family unit. Where as X-Men are all about being the outcasts of society and learning to live with being different. So, as if their stories being so dramatically different were not enough to keep them apart you have the filming style to consider. Supposedly, unless this has been debunked Josh Trank is going to be filming Fantastic Four in a found footage style. The X-Men however is being filmed more like a traditional science fiction movie with a good budget. It would just seem odd these 2 films merging on so many levels. Don't get me wrong I am not against seeing the X-men characters interact with the Fantastic Four characters, but it just needs to be done correctly, and I have very little confidence in Fox's ability to put it together in a way that doesn't feel out of place.

Surfer

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Lsts also let it be known that rhe xmen F4 crossing over is truly known for onslaught... the rest of there cross overs are more obscure and far less popular. They arnt known for crossing over as much as either is with spidey, hulk, and the avengers

 

[def28]

Wolverine and Beast crossover alot since they are Avengers. Usually it's specific members. Since AvsX though X-Men have been crossing over with Avengers and GOTG alot. Uncanny Avengers, All New X-Men, AXIS, A+X, Black Vortex, Legendary Starlord, SPider-Man And The X-Men etc. Marvels made a big effort to connect these guys much more in the past years. But yeah, they have rarely crossed with F4 and still don't.

Without The Avengers there would be barely any crossing over in comics.

 

[starscream22]

Has that actually been stated or is that one of those internet things that gets passed around like fact until it isn't? (Batman won't share the screen with Superman cause Nolan says so, then boom, Nolan's gone, and here we go.)

Call it common sense.

We all seen how quickly Fox jumped back on the QuickSilver bandwagon swapping him for Juggernaut once Marvel announced his part in Avengers. If Fox could do the same with F4 they would've at least done some type of cameo post Disney's arrival.

Now they can talk about doing a crossover till they're blue in the face but we all know how cheap talk is. So I'm sticking with the notion that they can't till actually PROVEN otherwise.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Again with the cross over thing? I thougth we agreed that it was common sense that Fox owning two separated IPs didn't give them the right to combine them

I think it's highly unlikely that they'll be able to cross-over, but even the slight possibility that they can is frightening.