The Dark Knight The Man Who Laughs: The Joker Thread 2.0

[Zig-Zag Man]

i agree completely. one of the best (if not the best) villain intros in any batfilm.

See, I thought the two best intros in the film universe was Batman's in B89, and definetely Joker's in TDK. Effecient, horrifying, and encapsulate the characters perfectly.

 

[regwec]

For me, TDK Joker's introduction, while very stong, is slightly compromised by the existance of a second introduction for him during the mob conference. I like both scenes a great deal, but I think they spread out the equivalent intensity which B89 compressed into a few moments.

 

[gwynplaine]

The mob scene feels more like the real intro to the character, the prologue being a little "hors d'oeuvre" (the Joker loves his hors d'oeuvre as proven in the fundraiser scenet.
Imo the greatest entrance for a character ever. (villain or not)

 

[regwec]

Wait, "the greatest entrance for a character ever"? Let's keep some proportion here!

 

[gwynplaine]

Wait, "the greatest entrance for a character ever"? Let's keep some proportion here!

That's why I wrote imo. Maybe I should have said one of the greatest entrance ever but I just love that scenet:.
Villainwise my other favourite ones would be Vader, Lector and Mitchum in Night of the hunter.

 

[Drizzle]

The mob scene feels more like the real intro to the character, the prologue being a little "hors d'oeuvre" (the Joker loves his hors d'oeuvre as proven in the fundraiser scenet.
Imo the greatest entrance for a character ever. (villain or not)

I agree that the mob scene feels like the "real" intro, but the greatest entrance ever? Sure, it's one of the greatest, but for me it's compromised by other great intros in cinematic history, like Darth Vader and Jack Sparrow.

 

[gwynplaine]

I agree that the mob scene feels like the "real" intro, but the greatest entrance ever? Sure, it's one of the greatest, but for me it's compromised by other great intros in cinematic history, like Darth Vader and Jack Sparrow.

Yeah, Sparrow was a really good one too.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

Wait, "the greatest entrance for a character ever"? Let's keep some proportion here!

Some moive reviewers called it that ... namely EMPIRE I believe, who just released their 500 greatest movies of all-time list.

And the true intro I was referring to was the business scene with the mob.

The opening is more like TDK's enigmatic metaphor for the origin and rise of the Joker.

 

[regwec]

Except that, if you take Batman Begins into account, then that is already referenced by the movie's ending. In that respect, The Joker really has three introductions, which amounts to a "build up" rather than an "entrance". It's very effective but, for me, none of the three scenes individually offer such an iconic snapshot of the character's centre as does that little sequence in Karl Grissom's apartment.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

No, the BEGINS is a mere mentioning of a character. His actual introduction as the finalized version of the character is the scene with the mob.

 

[regwec]

In what way is his prior appearance not an introduction?

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

In what way is his prior appearance not an introduction?

You could call his character introduction as the 1st scene in TDK. But the audience isn't introduced to the character in Batman Begins with the reference to him in the form of a playing card. Introducing is actually seeing.

 

[Crook]

He was referring to the bank scene.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

He was referring to the bank scene.

As was I ... read.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

It would be like saying then in B89, the scene with Grissom isn't really his introduction. It would be the scene when his hand comes out the chemicals. Or when he's at the doctor's office.

The true sit down introduction the full spectrum of the character for the Nolan Joker is the scene with the Mob. Where you clearly get the sense he's the focus of the scene.

Just as his intro in B89 is the scene in Grissom's office, even though he's seen before that ...

 

[gwynplaine]

Except that, if you take Batman Begins into account, then that is already referenced by the movie's ending. In that respect, The Joker really has three introductions, which amounts to a "build up" rather than an "entrance". It's very effective but, for me, none of the three scenes individually offer such an iconic snapshot of the character's centre as does that little sequence in Karl Grissom's apartment.

Just that slow laugh only as Joker enters the mob scene is pure magic to me. As for the rest of the scene, I find it the most perfect intro possible for the Joker but to each their own.

 

[Crook]

Joker IS the focus of the scene when he reveals himself. It's not the same as Jack in the basement or when he's in the chemicals, because you actually see Heath, he's speaking, and he's fully formed as the Joker.

 

[regwec]

Yep. In the "Grissom scene", The Joker emerges from the shadows, in full makeup, and delivers a line which establishes what we can expect from the rest of his character's screentime,

"You can call me, "Joker"- and as you can see...I'm a lot happier...Ha ha ha ha".

In the "bank robbery scene", The Joker emerges from behind his mask, in full makeup, and delivers a line which establishes what we can expect from the rest of his character's screentime,

"whatever doesn't kill you, makes you...stranger".

I would almost go so far as to say that the mob conference scene is slightly anti-climatic after this, because The Joker appears as a much more hesitant, more vulnerable individual than in his first scene. His later development more than counterbalances this but, again, it amounts to a more gradual introduction to the character than the single iconic moment in B89.

 

[gwynplaine]

Yep. In the "Grissom scene", The Joker emerges from the shadows, in full makeup, and delivers a line which establishes what we can expect from the rest of his character's screentime,

"You can call me, "Joker"- and as you can see...I'm a lot happier...Ha ha ha ha".

In the "bank robbery scene", The Joker emerges from behind his mask, in full makeup, and delivers a line which establishes what we can expect from the rest of his character's screentime,

"whatever doesn't kill you, makes you...stranger".

I would almost go so far as to say that the mob conference scene is slightly anti-climatic after this, because The Joker appears as a much more hesitant, more vulnerable individual than in his first scene. His later development more than counterbalances this but, again, it amounts to a more gradual introduction to the character than the single iconic moment in B89.

Not my sentiment at all, but like i said before to each their own.
I saw despair in that Joker but no hesitancy or vulnerability.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

Joker IS the focus of the scene when he reveals himself. It's not the same as Jack in the basement or when he's in the chemicals, because you actually see Heath, he's speaking, and he's fully formed as the Joker.

That doesn't make a lick of sense. Joker's speaking and is the main focus of the scene in the basement surgical repair shop. So seeing one's face constitutes as the introduction? I see it alittle bit differently. The "prologue" scene was described as being about the escelation of crime in its Gotham, and how the Joker was sort of born from that. Joker is faceless for damn near the entire thing. The true reveal isn't until the mob scene when we get fully formed Joker in his purple suit, we get to focus on him and him alone visually as the adueince, and get a glimpse into his twisted ideology. Hell, either way you cut it ... I think either the bank scene or the mob scene is the better intro.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

I would almost go so far as to say that the mob conference scene is slightly anti-climatic after this, because The Joker appears as a much more hesitant

Really? Slamming a ninjas head through a pencil was a hesitant move? Barging in on a lot you've been stealing from and killing the past few months is hesitant? This isn't barging in on one un-armed, just done showering mob boss. Everyone in the scene has a bodyguard, and is probably packing.

He seems vulnerable on purpose, because he acts like a business man in order to manipulate them into thinking he's like them. When in actuality he's as fearless as they come. He comes strapped with grenades in his coat? Instults one of the mob heads at the meeting? Basically calls them all idiots and sissies during the meeting. Says they have no balls?

Hesitant? No. Anti-climactic? Hell no.

 

[Crook]

That doesn't make a lick of sense. Joker's speaking and is the main focus of the scene in the basement surgical repair shop. So seeing one's face constitutes as the introduction?

No, how about introducing yourself is an introduction. Did you see Jack introducing himself in the basement? No? Then it's not an introduction. Did you see Heath introduce himself in the bank scene? Yes, yes you did.

From Nolan's mouth:

"Everything about doing this in the IMAX format is trying to get that feeling back when I was a little kid when I'd sit in a movie theater and see images that were larger than life. That's what I'm trying to get back to with this material. I felt like introducing the Joker in this way because he's such a huge character [and it] would be a very fun thing to do."

I see it alittle bit differently. The "prologue" scene was described as being about the escelation of crime in its Gotham, and how the Joker was sort of born from that. Joker is faceless for damn near the entire thing. The true reveal isn't until the mob scene when we get fully formed Joker in his purple suit, we get to focus on him and him alone visually as the adueince, and get a glimpse into his twisted ideology. Hell, either way you cut it ... I think either the bank scene or the mob scene is the better intro.

I don't see how the true reveal wasn't in the bank scene already. Joker takes OFF a mask to show audiences he was behind the entire coop, and it was the first time a film character has seen his face and seen him speak in his "natural" state. He's already fully formed.

Again, from Nolan's mouth:

Nolan explained to MTV News that the Joker we meet in "The Dark Knight" is fully formed. Don't look for an origin story here. "To me, the Joker is an absolute," he said. "There are no shades of gray to him — maybe shades of purple. He's unbelievably dark. He bursts in just as he did in the comics."

There's not a single scene in the movie where it's "Pre-Joker". He's 100% the character from beginning to end.

 

[Zig-Zag Man]

I didn't say there was any scene in the movie that was pre-Joker. The opening "prologue" was meant to represent, and it was stated in that interview you paraphrased and failed to mention, was the rise of the Joker as a criminal from faceless thug to the entity he is in the movie.

So yeah, I agreed before you went through all that you could either take a) the bank scene as the characters introduction or b) the mob scene as his introduction.

And either / or IMO is a FANTASTIC introduction to the character.

I just happen to believe the mob scene is the more true introduction of the Joker int he movie.

 

[regwec]

Really? Slamming a ninjas head through a pencil was a hesitant move? Barging in on a lot you've been stealing from and killing the past few months is hesitant? This isn't barging in on one un-armed, just done showering mob boss. Everyone in the scene has a bodyguard, and is probably packing.

He seems vulnerable on purpose, because he acts like a business man in order to manipulate them into thinking he's like them. When in actuality he's as fearless as they come. He comes strapped with grenades in his coat? Instults one of the mob heads at the meeting? Basically calls them all idiots and sissies during the meeting. Says they have no balls?

Hesitant? No. Anti-climactic? Hell no.

Yes, the use of the word "appears" in my post was not accidental.

 

[the dmg]

he opening "prologue" was meant to represent, and it was stated in that interview you paraphrased and failed to mention, was the rise of the Joker as a criminal from faceless thug to the entity he is in the movie.

Which means that the bank scene was the true introduction, although you may not think so.