The Dark Knight The Man Who Laughs: The Joker Thread 2.0

[laudanum09]

It was mentioned pretty early on by Michael Caine (I think) that the Joker puts on makeup and "just leaves it on - never takes it off."

However, it's clear from the stills that his makeup is not only constantly retouched, but completely removed at one point (funeral scene) and reapplied in later scenes further in the chronology.


These could be plain old continuity issues, funeral scene not withstanding, but I sorta doubt it. Not in this movie.

It would seem that Caine's words were false, unless I'm wrong about the chronology of the film, which could be the case. If anyone has a good answer for this, I'd like to read it.

Caine was making some general comments, he wasn't being specific about the plot and the context of the film. Ledger's makeup goes through all sorts of changes in the film as a result of wear and tear and various other things. Its not a continuity issue since the quote was never meant to be specific about that. once again, caine was just describing the look of the character. If he said "Wow Bale was great as Batman, when he wears that suit he owns it, like he never removes it and its a part of him" This does not mean continuity errors or that he never removes it and it is somehow attached to his skin like a venom suit.

As far as the Joker's scars are concerned, it's been talked into the ground and a lot of people have come up with some pretty plausible theories. I have one more to add to that list.

His scars were caused by an explosive placed inside his mouth.

Ridiculous. I know. I don't know much about ballistics, but I figure that depending on the nature of the device, it could possibly destroy the soft tissue of the cheeks, while only doing minor damage to the teeth and tongue. I don't know what kind of an explosive that would be, but in movie land it could possibly work. It's a relatively implausible idea, but allow me to explain why I came up with it.



I was looking at the recently shared picture of heath with the scar prosthetics on his face. Those are some pretty irregular keloid scars. The wound must have been horrific. If it was deliberately cut, it could have healed that way if it wasn't very well taken care of, but there are some places where it appears that tissue was not only lacerated, but blown away completely in small pieces here and there. It would seem that whatever caused that injury was something quick and powerful, not something slow and deliberate such as the chelsea grin theory, or the self-cut theory.

I think we're reading into it a bit much. I don't really care much for the exact origin of the character since it was apparently something ledger made up, and most likely in a loose way. Most likely they stuck to the TKJ multiple origins story from what we've heard. It may have been cut by a mob boss, a drunk father, or by himself, but I doubt it was by an explosion in his mouth. Perhaps its one of the multiple false stories, but his right side (not ours) looks like it was carved in, the other side might look like an explosion, perhaps, but I think it looks like a knife carving, maybe a bullet. the right side is definitely a cut though. An explosion in the mouth would destroy the lips and the skin right below the nose. imho, its just really unlikely.

 

[McBat87]

I've just seen the swedish clip of the joker.Heath's performance kinda reminds me of johny depp's Hunter S Thompson in gilliam's Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.You know what,it's kind of an almagam of a lot of past movie psycho's with cartoonish vibe.It's sounded like a guy trying so hard to sound decent,more like a satire of an honest politician or sumptin like that.The growling joker voice sounded lil bit like nick nolte,and the twisted joly 'Like Me!' sounds like Slyvester the Cat on crack.o and lil dash of Truman capote..What do you guys think?

 

[Yojimbo]

Caine was making some general comments, he wasn't being specific about the plot and the context of the film. Ledger's makeup goes through all sorts of changes in the film as a result of wear and tear and various other things. Its not a continuity issue since the quote was never meant to be specific about that. once again, caine was just describing the look of the character. If he said "Wow Bale was great as Batman, when he wears that suit he owns it, like he never removes it and its a part of him" This does not mean continuity errors or that he never removes it and it is somehow attached to his skin like a venom suit.

Ah, sorry for my misunderstanding. I distinctly remember him describing it as a "disguise" and using hyperbole that made it sound like he was talking about a specific plot element.

I think we're reading into it a bit much. I don't really care much for the exact origin of the character since it was apparently something ledger made up, and most likely in a loose way. Most likely they stuck to the TKJ multiple origins story from what we've heard. It may have been cut by a mob boss, a drunk father, or by himself, but I doubt it was by an explosion in his mouth. Perhaps its one of the multiple false stories, but his right side (not ours) looks like it was carved in, the other side might look like an explosion, perhaps, but I think it looks like a knife carving, maybe a bullet. the right side is definitely a cut though. An explosion in the mouth would destroy the lips and the skin right below the nose. imho, its just really unlikely.

Tighten your lips and blow. Do that cheek thing kids do against storefront windows. When the inside of your mouth is subjected to high pressure, where does it build the most? It would force the mouth open, an effect that could absorb and release most of the force. But the cheeks bulge and trap most of the lateral energy, much like a wind brake, which could cause them to rupture. A few missing teeth, a broken jaw, a burnt tongue, and a grotesquely disfigured face.

But you're right. I probably am overthinking it. But that's what nerds like me are born to do; overthink everything.

 

[Dark Globe]

I've just seen the swedish clip of the joker.Heath's performance kinda reminds me of johny depp's Hunter S Thompson in gilliam's Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.You know what,it's kind of an almagam of a lot of past movie psycho's with cartoonish vibe.It's sounded like a guy trying so hard to sound decent,more like a satire of an honest politician or sumptin like that.The growling joker voice sounded lil bit like nick nolte,and the twisted joly 'Like Me!' sounds like Slyvester the Cat on crack.o and lil dash of Truman capote..What do you guys think?

Yeah, great first post......

 

[The Only Woj]

I like to think the Joker got the facial scars in a horribly embarrassing, anticlimactic way. That's why he makes up these stories about it and dresses himself up.

Like, he was at the zoo when he was 12, and they were at some turtle exhibit. He was leaning over the rail and fell in head first on top of a turtle. the abrasiveness of the turtle shell gave him a pretty bad cut.

he was running by a pool and slipped on the wet concrete and hit his face on something sharp.

he was on a date with his girlfriend at one of those asian restaurants where the guy cooks right in front of you and the guy goes to do some knife trick and that snotty 8 year old who was acting like a maniac bumps into the guy and he totally sliced the crap out of his face.

tragic accident in a dark bedroom with his girlfriend and a certain area with a piercing.

a really bad experience at a dentist.

a really bad experience at a Chuck-E-Cheese's in the ball pit.

he went to a Melissa Etheridge concert, and afterwards he sees her getting into the tour bus ... he goes to get an autograph and she just f---s him up for absolutely no reason at all.

very bad experience the first time he shaved.

very bad experience the first time he brushed his teeth.

failed miserably trying to play a harmonica.

was playing ice hockey and wasn't wearing a helmet with a face guard ... and someone accidently kicked him in the face.

he went to a Melissa Etheridge concert, and realized he was at a Melissa Etheridge so he cut his face up to remind him that he should never, ever go to a Melissa Etheridge concert.

or it's a really bad birthmark.

 

[laudanum09]

I like to think the Joker got the facial scars in a horribly embarrassing, anticlimactic way. That's why he makes up these stories about it and dresses himself up.

Like, he was at the zoo when he was 12, and they were at some turtle exhibit. He was leaning over the rail and fell in head first on top of a turtle. the abrasiveness of the turtle shell gave him a pretty bad cut.

he was running by a pool and slipped on the wet concrete and hit his face on something sharp.

he was on a date with his girlfriend at one of those asian restaurants where the guy cooks right in front of you and the guy goes to do some knife trick and that snotty 8 year old who was acting like a maniac bumps into the guy and he totally sliced the crap out of his face.

tragic accident in a dark bedroom with his girlfriend and a certain area with a piercing.

a really bad experience at a dentist.

a really bad experience at a Chuck-E-Cheese's in the ball pit.

he went to a Melissa Etheridge concert, and afterwards he sees her getting into the tour bus ... he goes to get an autograph and she just f---s him up for absolutely no reason at all.

very bad experience the first time he shaved.

very bad experience the first time he brushed his teeth.

failed miserably trying to play a harmonica.

was playing ice hockey and wasn't wearing a helmet with a face guard ... and someone accidently kicked him in the face.

he went to a Melissa Etheridge concert, and realized he was at a Melissa Etheridge so he cut his face up to remind him that he should never, ever go to a Melissa Etheridge concert.

or it's a really bad birthmark.

haha i like it!

maybe he got them when he was once had an ex-persona as a soap salesman anarcho-primitivist and shot himself in the face to stop it and save the girl he loves. he's still blowing up buildings though.


and in regards to yojimbo's post, yeah i could buy the explosion thing, itd have to be small enough not to blow off his face but yeah, why not, so long as its thrown into the mix of multiple origins...i dont think it would suffice for THE origin for this joker

as for my origin, the true one for this joker, if he had one, it would be something along the lines of him maybe like TKJ, maybe even include the red hood for all I care, except he botches th robbery because of batman yet escapes. the mob hunts him down for his failure and cuts him up maybe even stabs or shoots him leaving him for dead. he survives and embraces the joker persona. thatd be my take.

 

[ABleedingCorpse]

I like to think the Joker got the facial scars in a horribly embarrassing, anticlimactic way. That's why he makes up these stories about it and dresses himself up.

Like, he was at the zoo when he was 12, and they were at some turtle exhibit. He was leaning over the rail and fell in head first on top of a turtle. the abrasiveness of the turtle shell gave him a pretty bad cut.

he was running by a pool and slipped on the wet concrete and hit his face on something sharp.

he was on a date with his girlfriend at one of those asian restaurants where the guy cooks right in front of you and the guy goes to do some knife trick and that snotty 8 year old who was acting like a maniac bumps into the guy and he totally sliced the crap out of his face.

tragic accident in a dark bedroom with his girlfriend and a certain area with a piercing.

a really bad experience at a dentist.

a really bad experience at a Chuck-E-Cheese's in the ball pit.

he went to a Melissa Etheridge concert, and afterwards he sees her getting into the tour bus ... he goes to get an autograph and she just f---s him up for absolutely no reason at all.

very bad experience the first time he shaved.

very bad experience the first time he brushed his teeth.

failed miserably trying to play a harmonica.

was playing ice hockey and wasn't wearing a helmet with a face guard ... and someone accidently kicked him in the face.

he went to a Melissa Etheridge concert, and realized he was at a Melissa Etheridge so he cut his face up to remind him that he should never, ever go to a Melissa Etheridge concert.

or it's a really bad birthmark.

I take it you have issues with Melissa Etheridge?

But I like what you're saying. Those scars could have come from anything. The fact that we don't know makes it better for us to imagin it ourselves.

I would like to think he had a bad accident trying to pull off a really cool knife trick.

 

[McBat87]

I wonder if the joker uses comedy props for his crimes or joker toxins or even laughing gas?I'll be disapointed if he only uses knifes,guns,and bombs.All the clips indicates especialy the clip where he said "I'm a man of simple tastes...I like dynamite...gunpowder...and GASOLINE!!!".I thought the joker is like the apposite of simple tastes.And the leaked pic where the fake batman had a carved smile and messy makeup indicates and that there wont be a joker toxins.I think Nolan took the realism way to serious.
If anyone here has seen the movie,please pay to contribute..O and I'm not exactly new,i just forgot my account.

 

[magus]

Ah, sorry for my misunderstanding. I distinctly remember him describing it as a "disguise" and using hyperbole that made it sound like he was talking about a specific plot element.



Tighten your lips and blow. Do that cheek thing kids do against storefront windows. When the inside of your mouth is subjected to high pressure, where does it build the most? It would force the mouth open, an effect that could absorb and release most of the force. But the cheeks bulge and trap most of the lateral energy, much like a wind brake, which could cause them to rupture. A few missing teeth, a broken jaw, a burnt tongue, and a grotesquely disfigured face.

But you're right. I probably am overthinking it. But that's what nerds like me are born to do; overthink everything.

The explosive in the mouth idea is absolutely ******ed. How were you able to type that and not think: "whoa. WTF am I writing?" There is no origin and if reviews are to be trusted, there is no hint at an origin besides Joker's obvious misdirection.

Next you're going to say that the Joker could have been both permawhite and had the cut smile by way of an exploding jawbreaker candy, which would build up pressure in his cheeks AND provide 3rd degree chemical burns from the burning hot sugars, making him white.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I wonder if the joker uses comedy props for his crimes or joker toxins or even laughing gas?I'll be disapointed if he only uses knifes,guns,and bombs.All the clips indicates especialy the clip where he said "I'm a man of simple tastes...I like dynamite...gunpowder...and GASOLINE!!!".I thought the joker is like the apposite of simple tastes.And the leaked pic where the fake batman had a carved smile and messy makeup indicates and that there wont be a joker toxins.I think Nolan took the realism way to serious.
If anyone here has seen the movie,please pay to contribute..O and I'm not exactly new,i just forgot my account.

I would count the pencil trick he does as one of those little Joker gags we all know and love, but I doubt there'll be many like that. Also, in the Joker's very first appearances, he didn't have the novelty items like that.. he just used guns and knives. He did use the gas, though. But really, this isn't meant to be a direct translation of the comics.. if it was, the Joker wouldn't be wearing makeup in the first place.

 

[McBat87]

There better be a laughing gas,although i seriously doubt there will. I think a laughing gas would work,coz it's totaly plausable and wont interfere with the whole 'realism' thing.I'm fine with the whole makeup thing,cos the whole chemichal bath thing is to convinient.You cant just fall from highly toxicated chemicals then turned your hair green,perfect paisty white skin and glowing red lips.What matter is the physical visual of the joker is intact,but I can't help the miss opportunities we will witness.Like with the Scarecrow in BB,he could be a lot more scarier and alot more threatening,instead what we get is a lowlevel henchmen,and the fear gas visuals could be a lot more but then again this will disrupt the whole realism thing again.I heard the fear toxin joker doesn't even make it to the final cut or is there any at all.Picture a scene like this,a group of gangster were trapped in a room full of laughing gas,they're all laughing helplessly and paralyzed.That's where the joker and his goons comes in,complete with gas mask and all.Then he started spraying them with gasoline (This is where a toy watergun or a flower toy in his suit come in handy).While still laughing hystericaly,they're all covered with flames so instead of screaming from pain of burning,Theyre all laughing for agony.See,that's quite plausible right?sorry for the bad english guys

 

[laudanum09]

^ two gas toxins in a row? its already been a villain's shtick. i feel like itd be just...u know...off if there was yet another bizarre criminal with toxic gas as a main weapon.

 

[Yojimbo]

The explosive in the mouth idea is absolutely ******ed. How were you able to type that and not think: "whoa. WTF am I writing?" There is no origin and if reviews are to be trusted, there is no hint at an origin besides Joker's obvious misdirection.

Next you're going to say that the Joker could have been both permawhite and had the cut smile by way of an exploding jawbreaker candy, which would build up pressure in his cheeks AND provide 3rd degree chemical burns from the burning hot sugars, making him white.

A lot of you are misunderstanding something. The origin of the Joker's scars don't necessarily have anything to do with the origin of the Joker. I prefer no Joker origin, but I'd like to know what happened to his face.

Read my first post on the previous page. I don't expect it to make a lot of sense to someone without reading why I came to such a ridiculous conclusion.

 

[KryptonBat]

Interesting....this is a picture of Tasmanian Spree Killer Martin Bryant, murdered 35 people and injured 37 others in the Port Arthur massacre, a killing spree in Tasmania in 1996. He is currently serving 35 life sentences in Hobart's Risdon Prison. He currently is the worlds 2nd biggest spree killer
These two really seem to have alot both physically and mentally in common, wonder if Heath used him as a little character inspiration since he's probably as known in the Australia region as BTK is in North America.

 

[ironwez20]

wtf does that have to to with anything im not being smart i just wanna know.

 

[Spade]

Well, let's see...

1. This is a Joker thread.
2. Heath's Joker is based on real-life people.
3. Speculation's open to how many sources were used.

Not to be sarcastic, but is it that difficult?

 

[CaptainClown]

wtf does that have to to with anything im not being smart i just wanna know.

thats for sure

 

[KryptonBat]

Yeah I know it's really a random thing, but I was just watching a "Most Evil" marathon the other day and it just struck me as being eerily similar. Just an idea to get out there, seriously no fuss.

 

[CaptainClown]

i see the connection good find krypton

 

[ronny]

I wonder if the joker uses comedy props for his crimes or joker toxins or even laughing gas?I'll be disapointed if he only uses knifes,guns,and bombs.All the clips indicates especialy the clip where he said "I'm a man of simple tastes...I like dynamite...gunpowder...and GASOLINE!!!".I thought the joker is like the apposite of simple tastes.And the leaked pic where the fake batman had a carved smile and messy makeup indicates and that there wont be a joker toxins.I think Nolan took the realism way to serious.
If anyone here has seen the movie,please pay to contribute..O and I'm not exactly new,i just forgot my account.

The Joker doesn't need stupid gag weapons at all. They're not a vital part of his character. if anything I think that such shameless gimmicks detract from just how evil this man is. Now, the laughing gas I'm sold on. I would have loved to have seen the warehouse scene from The Man Who Laughs. But beyond that I feel that exploding whoopie cushions or acid spraying flowers are pathetic. Truthfully they are the worst leftovers from the Hamill run.
This whole "We're not allowed to show him killing people so we'll pussyfoot around it with weaponry that's overly foolish" mentality.

 

[Crook]

The "gags" are part of the character and help push the clown persona. If you delve further into his behavior, it also reveals the core of this character's motivation. The criticism I hear most against it, is it looks too silly and detracts from how evil Joker is. And well, that's a shame because not only is it narrow-minded, but they're failing to see the significance in the overall scheme of what Joker can be.

The demented distortion of innocence (rubber chicken, flower, finger-buzzer, clown face, brightly colored garbs, etc.) is exactly what Joker exists to do. It doesn't just stop at pointing the mirror back at society to reveal a grand hypocrisy. It can extend to the most every-day of items and occurrences. Situations and objects we take for granted and feel safe around. The fact that Joker can corrupt all of these things is what makes him a truly scary individual.

In fact, I'd go as far to say that NOT including this facet of the character limits him greatly and just puts a box on what he can or cannot do. Which should never be the case.

 

[Spidey-Sean]

Huh. That serial killer post was interesting. The really strong right part in the hair and the vest, odd patterned shirt, seem quite similar to that shot of the Joker in prison. However this might be one of the intentionally manipulated pictures to make him look deranged (apparently some in the press did this after the incident).

edit* After a little research on wikipedia, it appears that this guy brought a large blue duffel bag with his weapons inside of it before his spree. The Joker's firt shot in the film shows him with a large blue duffel bag that ends up being full of grenades in the prologue. I think you might be on to something KryptonBat.

 

[ronny]

The "gags" are part of the character and help push the clown persona. If you delve further into his behavior, it also reveals the core of this character's motivation. The criticism I hear most against it, is it looks too silly and detracts from how evil Joker is. And well, that's a shame because not only is it narrow-minded, but they're failing to see the significance in the overall scheme of what Joker can be.

The demented distortion of innocence (rubber chicken, flower, finger-buzzer, clown face, brightly colored garbs, etc.) is exactly what Joker exists to do. It doesn't just stop at pointing the mirror back at society to reveal a grand hypocrisy. It can extend to the most every-day of items and occurrences. Situations and objects we take for granted and feel safe around. The fact that Joker can corrupt all of these things is what makes him a truly scary individual.

In fact, I'd go as far to say that NOT including this facet of the character limits him greatly and just puts a box on what he can or cannot do. Which should never be the case.

I struggle to think of a Joker story I have enjoyed in which he uses these weapons. As well as that, I find it hard to suspend my disbelief when he uses this stuff. I know the character likes to appear sily and fun but whilst I can believe that a guy dresses up like a clown and basicaly terrorises a city I find it hard to stomach the idea of him using gimmicky weapons. It feels cheap and tawdry to me.
I don't mind it in some respects, perhaps the most twisted Joker moment was the cotton candy incident in TDKR, and I can see your point here Crook. But the character holds such a level of fear amongst the heroes and villains of the DC world that I cannot abide by him using silly gag weapons.

 

[Maximus One]

yea i think hes onto somethin as well they are eerily similar

 

[Juha]

This Bryant sure is one interesting fella. Too bad consequences are usually horrifying when these loonies finally snap.

In November 2007 we had this "The Jokela Massacre" incident here in Finland. Some of you guys might even have heard about it. 18 year old student killed 8 people and finally killed himself. The case is unique in the entire history of our nation. It's hard to imagine the rage and the frustration which leads to such events.

These guys are time bombs just ticking away. Failed human beings or products of the society?

This is Pekka Auvinen. A huge loser IMO. He talked a lot about how the human kind is weak and how only the strongest should survive.