The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

[The Joker]

I'm sure there is a point you're trying to make. Is it that much of what we find in comics is inherently campy? Good, because I agree.

No, my point is that just because it's something you might find in the comics doesn't automatically make it a good idea to put in the movies. That was my point.

Not that I think the penguin army was bad at all. Campy and silly, but fun.

 

[Gunther Revenge]

"Basically, Bruce still is a couple with Vale, Penguing is a criminal who is just getting out of jail and Catwoman is a thief who is like a sex addict, in a twisted way. The main plan of the Penguin is to retrieve the money from the vault of Gotham City and the key to that treasure are 5 cat statues I think. Selina is the curator of the Gotham museum and as Catwoman she works for the Penguin to steal them. It is revealed that the 5 big families of Gotham hid the treasure somewhere and the Waynes were one of those families. And eventually it is revealed that the treasury is somewhere under the batcave.
Penguin finds out who Batman is (the final act takes place in Wayne Manor), Catwoman doesn't. Penguin is killed (falls to his death) and Selina is arrested. Oh, and Robin (Dick Grayson) is introduced (he has something to do with the statues I think) and finds out about Bruce=Batman and he helps him in the final act. Plus, there are Batman wannabees in it.
In the end Bruce proposes to Vicky."

Museum?
Cat statues?
Lost treasure?
Catwoman?

Sounds like a rework of the Batman 66 episode "The Purr-fect Crime" to me. WB was desperate to have the movies based on the Adam West show to some degree, it seems.

Sam Hamm seems to really like the show but this isn't really helpful if you try to create an anti-thesis to campy Batman.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Not that I think the penguin army was bad at all. Campy and silly, but fun.

'Campy' would be if it was in the film to be intentionally crappy for comedy's sake. Whereas other directors may have gone for that with it, knowing Burton's sensibilities it was supposed to be twisted. Cute penguins dressed cutely but carrying lethal ordinance on thier back.

The 60s show is campy because it's intentionally silly for the sake of making fun of itself. That's the nature of that style of humor. As for things that could be campy in Returns, it's a little harder to say because there's nothing that's clearly meant to be so. Although Waters' draft of BR before the Strick re-writes may fit the bill... a draft that the "Eat Floor" line probably survived from.

The Waters draft contained lines like "Take that, Tannenbaum!" from the organ grinder when he blasts the Christmas tree, among other awful lines.

 

[The Joker]

'Campy' would be if it was in the film to be intentionally crappy for comedy's sake. Whereas other directors may have gone for that with it, knowing Burton's sensibilities it was supposed to be twisted. Cute penguins dressed cutely but carrying lethal ordinance on thier back.

The 60s show is campy because it's intentionally silly for the sake of making fun of itself. That's the nature of that style of humor. As for things that could be campy in Returns, it's a little harder to say because there's nothing that's clearly meant to be so. Although Waters' draft of BR before the Strick re-writes may fit the bill... a draft that the "Eat Floor" line probably survived from.

The Waters draft contained lines like "Take that, Tannenbaum!" from the organ grinder when he blasts the Christmas tree, among other awful lines.

Campy is campy whether it was intentional or not. It's all about execution. Not intention. Something can be done with serious intention but come off very campy.

When you have a bird man making a verbal speech to a bunch of penguins as if they understand a word he's saying, that is campy, whether it's intended to be or not. Same with the marching army of penguins with their candy rockets and metal helmets on their heads. Same with Batman's fancy remote batarang being stolen by a poodle in the middle of a multiple take down. Same as Batman's radar monitor making quacking sounds when Penguin's duck vehicle is on it.

There's tons of campy scenes and moments in Returns.

 

[Kane52630]

Also if you're taking campy serious, you're missing the point.

 

[Macphisto]

Burton specializes in a campy blend of horror and heart. Crikey, just look at his five favourite films: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/san.../1919534/five-favorite-films-with-tim-burton/

The penguin army carrying missiles was pretty much Batman #38 on steroids (or is that cocaine?):

 

[regwec]

I really want to see a fresh interpretation of old Oswald soon.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

I really want to see a fresh interpretation of old Oswald soon.

I second that. Nolan's version might have been interesting.

 

[shauner111]

Ahhh i love Cobblepot so much. One of my favorite characters ever. I will say that i adored Devitos version when i was really young.

I second that. Nolan's version might have been interesting.

Nolan's version you say? Ugh, don't make me mad at the Nolan brothers. That's the one thing i can't forgive them for. For not seeing the potential in Penguin. Tom Wilkinson's Carmine Falcone was fitting but he wasn't very Carmine. Who is like a Vito Corleone, even with his family. So i know that couldnt work in live-action because we have it with the Godfather films, so Chris changed him. My point? I think Tom Wilkinson could have made a solid Oswald with some adjustments. The actor is even british in real life for crying out loud. Why not make that character Penguin instead? Since he was never going to bring in Alberto, Mario, Sofia, even making him Selina's father?

Heck, if not that..Nolan could have switched the Chechen from TDK with Penguin. Imagine all of Chechen's scenes intact but it's friggin Oswald having a meeting with Scarecrow? Then Joker's pencil trick scene with Gambol, Maroni and COBBLEPOT!? While Two-Face takes care of Maroni in the car, Joker's men take care of Penguin after he sets Lau on fire.

Anyways, back to Batman Returns. (BTW Joker i know it's not the thread for this, but im wondering what you think of Penguin replacing Falcone or Chechen like i said above..since i know you're a big Penguin fan).

 

[Kane52630]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/70659546627/merry-christmas-alfred-bruce-wayne-batman

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'm never sure what to make of the religious imagery in this movie. Its all over the place. Its weird and seems almost anti-Semitic, but then Wesley Strick who is Jewish came out and said it isn't anti-Semitic at all, but the Penguin as a sort of anti-Moses thing was totally intentional nonetheless. Penguin and Catwoman and Max kinda make this unholy trinity of sorts. And then at the end there is the Christmas message of hope and peace which has triumphed over evil (there's a symbolic attack on Christmas throughout the movie, such as the lighting of the tree, etc.). And its all constructed in a way that it almost seems like we are being told something by the film but in the end it doesn't seem to really add up to anything.

Everytime I watch the movie I notice some new religious imagery I didn't notice before, but then I'm like "what the heck is that there for? What does it mean for the story as a whole?" No clue.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

I'm never sure what to make of the religious imagery in this movie. Its all over the place. Its weird and seems almost anti-Semitic, but then Wesley Strick who is Jewish came out and said it isn't anti-Semitic at all, but the Penguin as a sort of anti-Moses thing was totally intentional nonetheless. Penguin and Catwoman and Max kinda make this unholy trinity of sorts. And then at the end there is the Christmas message of hope and peace which has triumphed over evil (there's a symbolic attack on Christmas throughout the movie, such as the lighting of the tree, etc.). And its all constructed in a way that it almost seems like we are being told something by the film but in the end it doesn't seem to really add up to anything.

Everytime I watch the movie I notice some new religious imagery I didn't notice before, but then I'm like "what the heck is that there for? What does it mean for the story as a whole?" No clue.

So you didn't get that the end of the movie tells you the exact opposite of what is verbally said? The "Christmas message" is said as the opposite of what has happened and is happening at the moment of them being said; the hero is left alone, victims of society have been killed or maimed, there's anything but peace in Batman, etc. Religious imagery or references in this movie are there as the enhancer of the exact opposite and that's how they work.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'm not sure how that is the exact opposite. Sure Batman's not at peace. But Gotham is finally at peace because the Penguin, Shreck, etc. were defeated. The battle is over.

There is some sort of running theme with Christmas symbolizing the peace (and maybe naivete?) of Gotham, being assaulted by the Penguin. And in the end it has been kept safe for now. The Christmas image applies to Gotham, not to Batman...

I dunno. Its kinda a mangled mesh of themes so its difficult to say how it all works.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

I'm not sure how that is the exact opposite. Sure Batman's not at peace. But Gotham is finally at peace because the Penguin, Shreck, etc. were defeated. The battle is over.

There is some sort of running theme with Christmas symbolizing the peace (and maybe naivete?) of Gotham, being assaulted by the Penguin. And in the end it has been kept safe for now. The Christmas image applies to Gotham, not to Batman...

I dunno. Its kinda a mangled mesh of themes so its difficult to say how it all works.

Gotham is never ever seen as a character in this movie, let alone the main character whom the story should be measured from. The whole movie flows around the characters of Catwoman, Penguin, Batman and Max Shreck. That's why it starts with parents having a deformed baby and trying to get rid of him. Not the classic Christmas spirit story, is it? That's why Santa Claus is shown briefly and being hit by a villain. That's why nothing in the movie suggests we're witnessing a traditional Christmas story. Except, of course, snow and some references to make it clear that the story is even more sinister when looked at from a Christmas-y point of view.

Same way I guess you didn't think The Clockwork Orange was a light-hearted musical because the main character sang and danced the romantic song "Singing in the Rain." It was like the actions in the movie were more important than that referent and, in fact, that romantic referent was emphasizing how amoral and unromantic the movie was.

 

[regwec]

Actually, I think "Gotham" is key to the story, because it represents the norm to which Batman, Catwoman and The Penguin are the "other".

Burton seems to have a habit of using festivals as a method of representing an affirmation of societal norms. It is most obvious in "A Nightmare before Christmas", but you also see it in "Batman", where control of the city appears to be a contest between rival festivities: the parade that the mayor is attempting to deliver as a symbol of the city's regeneration, and The Joker's lurid maelstrom of balloons, money and poison gas. The Joker's plaintiff cry that "he's stealing my balloons!" comes from his realisation that he's lost the battle for Gotham.

In BR, Christmas is the cultural norm that is anticipated as a kind of victory over the chaotic "other". Penguin tries to subvert it in the worst fashion by destroying children, for whom Christmas exists. Batman, of course, saves Christmas, and the social fabric limps on to fight another day. But Bruce nevertheless knows he is of the "other", and that is probably contributory to the rather conflicted "Merry Christmas" he gives at the end.

In my opinion, etc.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Regwec put it better than I could. I think that's absolutely right.

 

[Lord]

I find Returns incredibly underrated, it also only has a 7 on IMDB. But i think the film is very rich in visuals and substance

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Actually, I think "Gotham" is key to the story, because it represents the norm to which Batman, Catwoman and The Penguin are the "other".

Burton seems to have a habit of using festivals as a method of representing an affirmation of societal norms. It is most obvious in "A Nightmare before Christmas", but you also see it in "Batman", where control of the city appears to be a contest between rival festivities: the parade that the mayor is attempting to deliver as a symbol of the city's regeneration, and The Joker's lurid maelstrom of balloons, money and poison gas. The Joker's plaintiff cry that "he's stealing my balloons!" comes from his realisation that he's lost the battle for Gotham.

In BR, Christmas is the cultural norm that is anticipated as a kind of victory over the chaotic "other". Penguin tries to subvert it in the worst fashion by destroying children, for whom Christmas exists. Batman, of course, saves Christmas, and the social fabric limps on to fight another day. But Bruce nevertheless knows he is of the "other", and that is probably contributory to the rather conflicted "Merry Christmas" he gives at the end.

In my opinion, etc.

You're right about everything. But thing is that at the end of the movie Gotham is never shown "in peace" according to the Christmas traditional concept of it. In fact at the end Gotham is shown desolated and deserted. Only Bruce Wayne wanders aimlessly, seeing - literally - shadows from hi past.

It's hardly, as ThePhantasm put it, a message of hope and peace or the triumph over evil. What Bruce Wayne says ("And good Will toward men...and women") is hardly the movie's message - and thank God Burton didn't put everything verbally spoonfed - but just as another contrast between what Christmas should be and what this anti-hero, in his sad loneliness, is.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

It has so much more depth to the story than most of the fanboy scene gives it credit for, always titling it as a bastardized Batman, or JUST a Tim Burton film. I have to say Regwec put it very nicely up above.

 

[ThePhantasm]

It's hardly, as ThePhantasm put it, a message of hope and peace or the triumph over evil. What Bruce Wayne says ("And good Will toward men...and women") is hardly the movie's message - and thank God Burton didn't put everything verbally spoonfed - but just as another contrast between what Christmas should be and what this anti-hero, in his sad loneliness, is.

I like this. Good thoughts.

 

[Bruce Banner]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/70659546627/merry-christmas-alfred-bruce-wayne-batman

One of my favorite bits of that movie.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I just had to share this, it just came in the mail today as a late Christmas gift from my wife, I have to say I am super excited about this one.

 

[regwec]

Your wife is an understanding and resourceful woman. Remind her that you are a lucky man.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Oh believe me I already have plenty already this is something only someone that truly knows me would know how much it would mean to me, I feel very lucky!

 

[CatwomanFan1]

I just had to share this, it just came in the mail today as a late Christmas gift from my wife, I have to say I am super excited about this one.

OMG! Where do I get this from?!?!