The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

[CConn]

Your entitled to your opinions, but I think it's blatantly obvious Selina was alive, well, and flitting around as Catwoman at the end. There was even talk of doing a Catwoman spin off with Pfeiffer.

That's still not the point.

The point is: no, it didn't make absolutely any sense that Catwoman was still alive logically. But she WAS alive, and it was because it worked on a thematic level within the film.

And as is the case with most Expressionst pieces, the plausibility doesn't matter, and the explaination is of no consequence. What matters is what her still being alive at the end meant to her character, and to Bruce Wayne.

 

[The Joker]

That's still not the point.

The point is: no, it didn't make absolutely any sense that Catwoman was still alive logically. But she WAS alive, and it was because it worked on a thematic level within the film.

And as is the case with most Expressionst pieces, the plausibility doesn't matter, and the explaination is of no consequence. What matters is what her still being alive at the end meant to her character, and to Bruce Wayne.

I know it didn't make any logical sense, and that's the point I am making. You can label it as expressionism or poetic or what ever else you like to think of it as. I don't care what way you want to see it. That's your opinion and I'm not disputing that.

The original point someone else made was Selina's survival could be explained by plausible means. There's no plausible explanation for taking four gun shots and being able to run around as Catwoman on the rooftops shortly after. We do know it's shortly after because the scratches on Bruce's face are still fresh.

 

[CConn]

It seems like sometimes this is an inherent argument made by fans of the Burton films to account for massive plot holes or complete illogical cinematic events. It's sloppy, regardless of expressionism or being poetic.

Then the same people will go on to critique the Nolan films, in all their romanticism and poetic dialogue (such as the terrific monologue at the end of TDK) isn't "subtle" enough or is too on the nose.

Anyone will eyes and ears should be able to admit Nolan is too on the nose at times.

He's definitely equally as subtle as Burton in many ways, though.

His movies actually often have just as many plot holes and illogicalities as Burton too.

Both are awesome, though.

 

[CConn]

I know it didn't make any logical sense, and that's the point I am making. You can label it as expressionism or poetic or what ever else you like to think of it as. I don't care what way you want to see it. That's your opinion and I'm not disputing that.

The original point someone else made was Selina's survival could be explained by plausible means. There's no plausible explanation for taking four gun shots and being able to run around as Catwoman on the rooftops shortly after. We do know it's shortly after because the scratches on Bruce's face are still fresh.

Oh, sorry, I mistook you for wanting to have a debate about something that isn't ridiculously inane.

 

[Homer J. Fong]

I suppose there are those people who excuse Burton for doing things they criticize Nolan for doing. In a way, though, that does make sense, because Burton's Batman movies weren't going for the same kind of heightened-realism that Nolan's were. They weren't as silly as Schumacher's, of course, but plot holes or unexplained events didn't stand out as much in Burton's as in Nolan's because his series was tonally and stylistically so different. They are two different series that should be judged in different ways. Now, I'm not one of those people who bashes Nolan for plot holes or poetic license or whatever and then praises Burton for it, but those leaps in real world logic are more forgivable in the more stylized Burton version of things.

Believable or not, expressionism or not, poetic or not, all that matters in the final moments of Batman Returns, when you get down to it, is: Does it affect you emotionally? Are you happy or excited or intrigued that Selina seems to have survived? Are you wondering if she did? Are you still thinking about it afterward? Emotional resonance is what counts, and it sure has it for me.

 

[Cain]

Believable or not, expressionism or not, poetic or not, all that matters in the final moments of Batman Returns, when you get down to it, is: Does it affect you emotionally? Are you happy or excited or intrigued that Selina seems to have survived? Are you wondering if she did? Are you still thinking about it afterward? Emotional resonance is what counts, and it sure has it for me.

Exactly. Like I could get caught up in the massive batmobile hijacking plothole but then I also cheat myself of enjoying this movie for the visceral experience it was intended to be. Presented in it's cartoonish manner it was still a fun setpiece and had some good humor in it too. Comic books have gotten away with much worse. It's a fairy tale so it's inherently and emotive experience above all. You laugh, you cry etc. this movie was about the emotional core of it's 4 main characters. Filtered through a kaleidoscope of pure fantasy.

That's why I've always said you either love it or hate it because it has a lot to do with the emotional connection with the viewer. If it doesn't resonate emotionally with you it doesn't work. The last thing I'd ever try to do is apply logic to any Batman movie though truth be told. Because it becomes a frustrating chore and hinders an otherwise fine movie for no real reason because it always distracts you.

 

[kewlmatto]

I suppose there are those people who excuse Burton for doing things they criticize Nolan for doing. In a way, though, that does make sense, because Burton's Batman movies weren't going for the same kind of heightened-realism that Nolan's were. They weren't as silly as Schumacher's, of course, but plot holes or unexplained events didn't stand out as much in Burton's as in Nolan's because his series was tonally and stylistically so different. They are two different series that should be judged in different ways. Now, I'm not one of those people who bashes Nolan for plot holes or poetic license or whatever and then praises Burton for it, but those leaps in real world logic are more forgivable in the more stylized Burton version of things.

Believable or not, expressionism or not, poetic or not, all that matters in the final moments of Batman Returns, when you get down to it, is: Does it affect you emotionally? Are you happy or excited or intrigued that Selina seems to have survived? Are you wondering if she did? Are you still thinking about it afterward? Emotional resonance is what counts, and it sure has it for me.

Perfectly said.

 

[CConn]

Yeah, I agree with that implicitly. Even highly intellectual filmmakers like Ingmar Bergman process that emotional resonace is the most important factor in filmmaking.

Honestly, I wish more directors and audiences paid more attention to that sentiment rather than dwelling on plot holes or continuity errors.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Some sweet behind the scenes photos of Danny DeVito's transformation into Penguin.

https://www.stanwinstonschool.com/blog/batman-returns-the-penguin-danny-devito-makeup

 

[Kane52630]

Check out the last page Hob.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Yeah, well....my first post is still valid!

 

[kewlmatto]

Possibly my favourite shot from the film...

 

[OutRiddled]

Some sweet behind the scenes photos of Danny DeVito's transformation into Penguin.

https://www.stanwinstonschool.com/blog/batman-returns-the-penguin-danny-devito-makeup

Thanks for that. Love Danny DeVito's Penguin character. The most underrated villain of the movie franchise.

 

[CConn]

Possibly my favourite shot from the film...

She looks so aroused in that shot.

 

[kewlmatto]

She looks so aroused in that shot.

I cannot for the life of me imagine Annette Bening in that role. I guess we're lucky it changed last minute.

I love Annette Bening...but she just wouldn't have done it like Michelle.

 

[Two-Face]

Michelle P is one of a kind. I'm glad Burton chose her.

 

[the amazing fro]

I love this movie and it vies with TDK and BB for my favourite Batman movie. There is one scene in particular that I adore and that is penguin's death scene.

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The penguins give him a funeral. It should be ridiculous, it should be hilarious and if you think about it, it kind of is. But on top of all that it is just so horribly tragic. It's the last moments of a man who is destroyed by his own bitterness and hate for the rest of the world. There is no redemption or poignant last words. He saves up the last of his strength just to try and kill Batman. He doesn't even get that cool drink of ice water. He dies with such hate in his heart and then is "buried" by the only creatures that ever showed him genuine kindness (and whom he was willing to sacrifice to get back at Gotham). Plus the score here is amazing and some of Elfman's best work on Batman.

 

[Kane52630]

It's a very Tim Burton move, which was awesome. It's his take on Batman, that's what i've always thought just like Nolan has his take on Batman.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

It's a very Tim Burton move, which was awesome. It's his take on Batman, that's what i've always thought just like Nolan has his take on Batman.

And all the better for it...

 

[The Joker]

Scene question here; at the public speech Penguin gives which Batman ends up ruining by exposing Penguin's true nature, we see Selina standing in the back of the crowd watching Penguin's speech intently.

Now do you think she was there giving Penguin the evil eye because he had just tried to kill her the night before, maybe even planning to get revenge on him? Because after Batman exposes the Penguin's nature, and the crowd gets riled up, Selina just slinks off into the background, like Penguin just got his just deserts being exposed like that so she doesn't need to exact any vengeance on him.

 

[Ponyboy]

Now do you think she was there giving Penguin the evil eye because he had just tried to kill her the night before, maybe even planning to get revenge on him? Because after Batman exposes the Penguin's nature, and the crowd gets riled up, Selina just slinks off into the background, like Penguin just got his just deserts being exposed like that so she doesn't need to exact any vengeance on him.

I don't think she was planning on letting him leave that little gathering. Batman just did the work for her.

 

[kewlmatto]

Scene question here; at the public speech Penguin gives which Batman ends up ruining by exposing Penguin's true nature, we see Selina standing in the back of the crowd watching Penguin's speech intently.

Now do you think she was there giving Penguin the evil eye because he had just tried to kill her the night before, maybe even planning to get revenge on him? Because after Batman exposes the Penguin's nature, and the crowd gets riled up, Selina just slinks off into the background, like Penguin just got his just deserts being exposed like that so she doesn't need to exact any vengeance on him.

I think you've pretty much nailed it. That's the way I interpret it.

More than anything, this version of Selina Kyle was mistreated by men her entire life. Shreck through her over the edge (literally). She hates almost all men because of what Shreck has done to her. Penguin then does the same thing - tries to kill her. It's a nice subtle moment which shows her frustration - even after her 'liberation' as Catwoman, men are still mysogynists who want to kill her (with the exception of Batman). She hates Penguin very quickly the moment he becomes a little bit like Shreck.

The good thing is Penguin pretty much ruins things for himself, so she doesn't have to actively seek revenge.

 

[returntovoid]

Is it me or did The Dark Knight Rises take ideological deviation of the Batman concept even further than TDK, compared to the Burton films. Nolan's interpretation as it is, already depicted Bruce Wayne as being Batman because of a guilt complex and fighting to protect corrupt Gotham, even going as far as lying. This contrasts with Burton's Batman, who was sociopathic and someone that questioned the status quo.

 

[kewlmatto]

Is it me or did The Dark Knight Rises take ideological deviation of the Batman concept even further than TDK, compared to the Burton films. Nolan's interpretation as it is, already depicted Bruce Wayne as being Batman because of a guilt complex and fighting to protect corrupt Gotham, even going as far as lying. This contrasts with Burton's Batman, who was sociopathic and someone that questioned the status quo.

Yep, I agree.

It's also a sign of the political ideologies of the times as well.

In the 1990s counter-culture which challenged status quo was far more accepted in fiction (and real life as well), after the rather conservative 80s.

Now while I think the 'post-9/11' and 'post-GFC' thing is overwritten in terms of the Nolan trilogy, you can definitely see the influence. The 'lie to continue at all costs' is something that has been present in the last decade in society. And people are willing to accept it. Bank fails? Don't change the system - just give them a bail out. Global warming? No, I'm a skeptic because that's just too difficult for me.

I think Nolan's Batman reflects a cynical time which in many ways is happy for a lie so long as it keeps them content. Not something which would have worked so much in the early 90s. Even after the 'revelation' of the lie from Bane in TDKR, most people in Gotham couldn't care less about it. Besides the Blackgate prisoners and a stern stare from John Blake, it becomes a fairly moot point, which is a shame seeing as the 8-year hiatus is predicated on the ramifications of said lie.

There are a few too many hints of class elitism in Nolan's version because of this issue in particular. The 'I know what's good for them' mentality is clearly there and in many ways Batman and Gordon treat Gothamites like children (then again, public discourse has degenerated so much over the last few decades - mass media much of the problem).

In contrast, Burton's Batman is a reclusive outsider who doesn't try to rewrite society under a new lie, just continues to crusade against corruption.

I like both versions of course in different ways.

I do think some of the things Nolan's trilogy reflects about the nature of Western society in modern times is a little disturbing when you scratch below the surface though.

 

[The Joker]

A neat piece of fan art I found: