The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 3

[Green Goblin]

Yeah, he works much better as a side villain, which is why I wish Nolan swapped out Scarecrow in place of Penguin. I think it would've made more sense.

Scarecrow was embarrassingly underused in all of the movies.

He could be a main villain but he worked for their story in Begins.

The costume was crap. A bag over his head?

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, I want the whole nine yards Scarecrow, with a big hat and a ****ing scythe.

 

[regwec]

Penguin can easily be the "big bad", but in general (nowadays at least) he is an opportunist rather than an architect of circumstances like The Riddler or The Joker. You see it where he becomes the virtual monarch of Gotham during No Man's Land. In that regard, the circumstances for him to thrive probably have to be built around him, in order for him to break out of comfort zone in the Iceberg Lounge.

He could easily have replaced both Talia and Bane, if the whole League of Shadows thing had been written out of TDKR.

 

[Stu]

​

 

[ThePhantasm]

He could easily have replaced both Talia and Bane, if the whole League of Shadows thing had been written out of TDKR.

But then you would have basically had the plot of Batman Returns!

Penguin rises out of a sewer, threatens the rich elite, steals the batmobile... Catwoman shows up but only teams up with him for a little while...

 

[BatLobster]

Which is pretty much why I think Returns was probably the best way (in theory) to make Penguin the main bad of a movie.

Obviously he's been used as a big bad plenty in the comics, I know that. He's one of the most popular villains. But no matter what, it has to be something more than "funny looking gangster/aristocrat with an inferiority complex" to warrant being the main villain of a 200 million dollar action movie. There has to be something truly insidious about him, otherwise to me he's just a dressed up version of a mobster. Burton got that, whether one agrees or not with his interpretation. There's a depth to the character to be sure, but from a plot standpoint I just tend to think that many of the other villains offer more excitement in terms of the types of plots they can generate.

He could easily have replaced both Talia and Bane, if the whole League of Shadows thing had been written out of TDKR.

I'm assuming you mean if they were replaced by both the Penguin and an earthquake?

 

[regwec]

Yes, or bombs or whatever other plot device is preferred.

It would be similar to BR, but I suppose the point I seek to make is that The Penguin works as a "big bad" only in relatively confined circumstances.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Ra's was a main villain in Begins and he was basically just a guy who ran a league of assassins. But Scarecrow was thrown into the mix to liven things up.

I think Penguin works as the main villain so long as you throw one more eccentric villain into the mix.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

 

[BatLobster]

I feel like Ra's training Bruce in the first act lends a lot more weight to his character though. There's the whole surrogate father/son falling out that adds a lot to the story and you couldn't really get that with Penguin.

I think if Cobblepot could've replaced anyone in Begins it would be Falcone. Bruce could've entered the Iceberg Lounge to have that face to face moment with him.

 

[regwec]

Ra's was a main villain in Begins and he was basically just a guy who ran a league of assassins. But Scarecrow was thrown into the mix to liven things up.

I think Penguin works as the main villain so long as you throw one more eccentric villain into the mix.

But Ra's is prima facie a powerful figure. Everything about him connotes a kind of hidden, mystical, ancient power. The Penguin gives the impression of being rather ridiculous or even pitiful. A cold black heart beats beneath, but it probably takes the intrusion of external factors for his own brand of evil to wax into a serious "force" in a narrative.

He works very well as a more minor and ambiguous character, too. We have seen Harvey Dent tell the tale of a hero who becomes a monster; it would be interesting to see, over the span of a franchise, The Penguin be a petty crook who becomes Gotham's apex crime lord.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Penguin was ridiculous and pitiful in Returns, but not so often in the history of the comics.

 

[Green Goblin]

Yeah, I want the whole nine yards Scarecrow, with a big hat and a ****ing scythe.

Anything is better than a simple bag. I wonder what the costume department were like,

"Scarecrow costume, how can we make it scary?" "Put a bag on his head!"

 

[regwec]

They are lucky that they had the benefit of Cillian Murphy, who was magnetic in the role. But the costume was another missed visual opportunity.

I imagine that Nolan's Penguin would have been about 5'9".

 

[The Shape]

Anything is better than a simple bag. I wonder what the costume department were like,

"Scarecrow costume, how can we make it scary?" "Put a bag on his head!"

Nolan was too focused on "teh realism" with Scarecrow. But overall, I love what they did with his voice and the hallucinations people had of him.

 

[Green Goblin]

Nolan was too focused on "teh realism" with Scarecrow. But overall, I love what they did with his voice and the hallucinations people had of him.

The Batsuit still looked Batman-ish. The characters and setting of Nolan's world is grounded but it's still got fear gas, people comming back from the dead, fancy gadgets etc.

 

[The Joker]

Nobody came back from the dead, and fear gas is just a hallucinogen, which very much exist in the world.

The character of Scarecrow was designed that his Scarecrow persona was a secret. So it made sense for him to slip on just a mask when he did it. Imagine him getting dressed into full Scarecrow garb in scenes like where he visits Falcone in Police custody lol.

His Scarecrow look has been adapted into the comics, too;

it would be interesting to see, over the span of a franchise, The Penguin be a petty crook who becomes Gotham's apex crime lord.

Watch the new Gotham TV show. Looks like that's what they're going to be doing with him.

I imagine that Nolan's Penguin would have been about 5'9".

Again watch the new Gotham TV show to see that.

 

[regwec]

I don't see why the incorporation of something into the comics that was undesirable in a movie is seen as some kind of validation of it. That obviously occurs for purely commercial reasons.

I would love to see the Gotham show, but I barely watch TV and I'm not even sure it is shown in this domicile.

 

[Stu]

​

 

[The Joker]

I don't see why the incorporation of something into the comics that was undesirable in a movie is seen as some kind of validation of it. That obviously occurs for purely commercial reasons.

First of all it wasn't undesirable in the movie. There was no backlash or outcry about it. Second, if it was undesirable then it wouldn't be used in the comics. If they ever start putting nipples on the Bat suits then we can worry. Third, that particular comic panel is from a Batman comic that came out last year. So it's hardly for commercial reasons when Begins came out 8 years ago. It shows that the DC folk think it's a cool valid look for Scarecrow if they're still using it.

I would love to see the Gotham show, but I barely watch TV and I'm not even sure it is shown in this domicile.

Watch it on-line. That's what I do for shows that don't get shown here.

 

[regwec]

Well, they're mistaken.

The last I read of Scarecrow, he was sewing his lips together. I think it represents the focus of the new 52 on a squarely teenage audience, more than anything.

 

[The Joker]

Mistaken about what? Liking something that you don't?

I didn't know teenagers were into sewing lips together. Maybe that's why the Joker cut off his own face. They're into facial mutilation

 

[Travesty]

Who's writing that new take on the Scarecrow in the New 52?

 

[The Shape]

Well, they're mistaken.

Mistaken about what? Liking something that you don't?

 

[regwec]

Well, yes. Is it really necessary to state that an evidently subjective view is a matter of opinion?

Is "in your opinion" really a credible retort outside the school playground?