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The Official Batman TAS Thread - Part 2

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I'm interested in learning. So, what makes this the definitive take? Does this show borrow or use actual storylines from the comics? Examples? Are there many changes made from the source and if so, are those changes better/worse or no different? Examples?
I'd say it's because it encompassed many aspects of the Batman mythos, for example; sidekicks, wide array of villains, and the ability to make anything happen all thanks to it being a long-running animated series. B:TAS was able do things that a live action film series wouldn't be able to match.

Then there's universal praise of the characters and the voices provided with them, specifically Conroy as Batman and Hamill as the Joker. With different writers and several episodes, characters like Batman and the Joker, but also Two-Face, the Riddler, Clayface etc. were given many shades to make them more complex.

The show was pretty much faithful all around to the source material, even adapting a few issues from the comics straight into the show (The Demon's Quest, The Laughing Fish). B:TAS is pretty much the comic put in motion.
 
I'm interested in learning. So, what makes this the definitive take? Does this show borrow or use actual storylines from the comics? Examples? Are there many changes made from the source and if so, are those changes better/worse or no different? Examples?

For most comic book fans, there is no comparison. More than the live-action movies, more than the 1960s TV series, more even than the original comic books, Batman: The Animated Series was and remains the definitive presentation of Batman or any superhero in an animated medium. Taking bits and pieces from the best that had come beforehand, Bruce Timm and Co ushered in a whole new era of childrens’ animation and created frankly one of the finest television programs ever aired. It borrows from many iconic and brilliant Batman storylines like The Laughing Fish, The Crime Doctor, The Joker's Five Way Revenge, No Hope in Crime Alley, The Demon's Quest to name a few.

The voice acting is beyond compare. For many (including myself), when they read the comic books, the voices they hear for the good guys are Kevin Conroy (Bruce Wayne/Batman), Efrem Zimbalist Jr (Alfred), and Bob Hastings (Jim Gordon). Conroy knew how to differentiate his voice as Batman. And Loren Lester even managed to make Robin/Nightwing sound cool. And let’s not forget that the show invented the long-running character of Renee Montoya.

As for the villains, more than enough has been written about Mark Hamill’s incredible work as The Joker, as well as Arleen Sorkin as Harley Quinn (who was later ret-conned into the Batman comic book world just like Renee Montoya). But let’s take a moment to remember Michael Ansara’s cold-bloodedly monotone Mr. Freeze (who also helped re-invent the comic book character as a serious villain), Paul Williams' aristocratic and menacing Penguin, Adrienne Barbeau's sensual and seductive Catwoman, David Warner’s deliciously arrogant Ra’s Al Ghul, John Glover’s deadly serious Riddler, and Richard Moll’s terrifically likable and sympathetic Harvey Dent and his cruel, conflicted Two-Face. Special mention must be made of Roddy McDowall. His stunningly touching and operatically emotional Jervis Tech was a highlight, especially in a powerful moment later in the series where The Mad Hatter explains just what lengths he would go to to get Batman out of his life.

Tonally, the show seemed to put itself mainly in a 1970s Dark Knight Detective template, but also tossing in bits from the Tim Burton movies, the 60s TV show, the Dick Sprang/Bill Finger 1940s stories, and the darker late 1980s comic books. Like those Dennis O’Neil/Neal Adams stories, Batman was a dark and brooding adventurer, and a whip-smart detective. But he was not obsessive and not a psychopathic jerk incapable of having formed relationships. And Bruce Wayne was just foppish and playboy-ish enough to get giggles from his fellow socialites, but he never went so far as to render Bruce Wayne impotent in the business world and useless as a force for good. Conroy’s Bruce Wayne was a publicly respected figure and a genuine philanthropist. The villains were menacing and (within the limits of BS&P) murderous, but their violence was never so grotesque as to render Batman’s efforts futile. There was plenty of action and adventure, but never at the expense of story and character.

The groundbreaking designs were straight out of 1940s art deco, taking a bit of inspiration from the 1940s Fleischer Superman cartoons but with a twist. In order to capture the darkness and shadowy mood of Gotham City, the artists actually worked from a black canvas, adding color to the already existing blackness. The Gotham City of this show is a timeless one, with black and white TVs and tommy guns mixed with computers and cell phones.

The stories are timeless too. In fact, that is the key to the show’s lasting success. Take away the artwork, the acting, the music, the violence, action, and suspense, and you still have something has yet to be replicated in American childrens’ animation. I’m talking about the scale of the storytelling. It was rarely epic and it was rarely larger than life. The storytelling was exactly to scale of human experience.

While there were plenty of escapades involving battles with Batman and his gallery of rogues, as well as gritty crime stories involving the less flamboyant outlaws, many of the episodes stepped back and took a look at the regular people living in Gotham. Some of the very best episodes involved the smallest of stories involving these always three-dimensional characters.

A typecast actor, struggling to survive after a role in superhero show has rendered him unemployable (Beware The Grey Ghost). A divorced ex-convict, willing to go to dangerous lengths to see his daughter (See No Evil). A mob moss deciding whether to turn state’s evidence after his son gets hooked on drugs (Never Too Late). A disgraced doctor, forced to kidnap a colleague to assist in life-saving surgery on his crime-boss brother (Paging The Crime Doctor). A veteran cop coming to terms with his loneliness and emptiness as someone from his past marks him for murder (A Bullet For Bullock). The Gotham City of Batman: The Animated Series was a real city, filled with real people living lives not unlike you and I. But in this city, that guy who you cussed out after he cut you off on the Freeway — he might just be The Joker (Joker’s Favor).

Nearly 23 years later (dear God), the show still holds up as an intelligent, exciting, tragic, funny, and moving action drama. It is the highest quality adult entertainment, that just happens to be pitched at a level that still renders it appropriate for children. It is easily one of the finest cartoons ever made, and perhaps the very best adaptation of a comic book in any medium.

It had a loose continuity with several of it's villains, such as Clayface, Mr. Freeze, Man Bat, The Clock King, and the on going relationship between Batman and Catwoman. One of the reasons why the show is so easy to watch is that you can slot in any episode and watch it without worrying having missed the previous episode or episodes, unless it's a 2 parter.

To answer your question about improvements, I'd say Mr. Freeze is a no brainer. He was a gimmicky shallow villain in the comics until BTAS turned him into a deep tragic character with a whole new back story involving his sick wife. Harley Quinn is another gift from this show. So is Renee Montoya.
 
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Excellent post Joker. And couldn't agree more.
 
Wow, amazing post Joker. Respect. Possibly the most eloquent summation of BTAS' greatness I've ever read.
 
I'd say it's because it encompassed many aspects of the Batman mythos, for example; sidekicks, wide array of villains, and the ability to make anything happen all thanks to it being a long-running animated series. B:TAS was able do things that a live action film series wouldn't be able to match.

Then there's universal praise of the characters and the voices provided with them, specifically Conroy as Batman and Hamill as the Joker. With different writers and several episodes, characters like Batman and the Joker, but also Two-Face, the Riddler, Clayface etc. were given many shades to make them more complex.

The show was pretty much faithful all around to the source material, even adapting a few issues from the comics straight into the show (The Demon's Quest, The Laughing Fish). B:TAS is pretty much the comic put in motion.

For most comic book fans, there is no comparison. More than the live-action movies, more than the 1960s TV series, more even than the original comic books, Batman: The Animated Series was and remains the definitive presentation of Batman or any superhero in an animated medium. Taking bits and pieces from the best that had come beforehand, Bruce Timm and Co ushered in a whole new era of childrens’ animation and created frankly one of the finest television programs ever aired. It borrows from many iconic and brilliant Batman storylines like The Laughing Fish, The Crime Doctor, The Joker's Five Way Revenge, No Hope in Crime Alley, The Demon's Quest to name a few.

The voice acting is beyond compare. For many (including myself), when they read the comic books, the voices they hear for the good guys are Kevin Conroy (Bruce Wayne/Batman), Efrem Zimbalist Jr (Alfred), and Bob Hastings (Jim Gordon). Conroy knew how to differentiate his voice as Batman. And Loren Lester even managed to make Robin/Nightwing sound cool. And let’s not forget that the show invented the long-running character of Renee Montoya.

As for the villains, more than enough has been written about Mark Hamill’s incredible work as The Joker, as well as Arleen Sorkin as Harley Quinn (who was later ret-conned into the Batman comic book world just like Renee Montoya). But let’s take a moment to remember Michael Ansara’s cold-bloodedly monotone Mr. Freeze (who also helped re-invent the comic book character as a serious villain), Paul Williams' aristocratic and menacing Penguin, Adrienne Barbeau's sensual and seductive Catwoman, David Warner’s deliciously arrogant Ra’s Al Ghul, John Glover’s deadly serious Riddler, and Richard Moll’s terrifically likable and sympathetic Harvey Dent and his cruel, conflicted Two-Face. Special mention must be made of Roddy McDowall. His stunningly touching and operatically emotional Jervis Tech was a highlight, especially in a powerful moment later in the series where The Mad Hatter explains just what lengths he would go to to get Batman out of his life.

Tonally, the show seemed to put itself mainly in a 1970s Dark Knight Detective template, but also tossing in bits from the Tim Burton movies, the 60s TV show, the Dick Sprang/Bill Finger 1940s stories, and the darker late 1980s comic books. Like those Dennis O’Neil/Neal Adams stories, Batman was a dark and brooding adventurer, and a whip-smart detective. But he was not obsessive and not a psychopathic jerk incapable of having formed relationships. And Bruce Wayne was just foppish and playboy-ish enough to get giggles from his fellow socialites, but he never went so far as to render Bruce Wayne impotent in the business world and useless as a force for good. Conroy’s Bruce Wayne was a publicly respected figure and a genuine philanthropist. The villains were menacing and (within the limits of BS&P) murderous, but their violence was never so grotesque as to render Batman’s efforts futile. There was plenty of action and adventure, but never at the expense of story and character.

The groundbreaking designs were straight out of 1940s art deco, taking a bit of inspiration from the 1940s Fleischer Superman cartoons but with a twist. In order to capture the darkness and shadowy mood of Gotham City, the artists actually worked from a black canvas, adding color to the already existing blackness. The Gotham City of this show is a timeless one, with black and white TVs and tommy guns mixed with computers and cell phones.

The stories are timeless too. In fact, that is the key to the show’s lasting success. Take away the artwork, the acting, the music, the violence, action, and suspense, and you still have something has yet to be replicated in American childrens’ animation. I’m talking about the scale of the storytelling. It was rarely epic and it was rarely larger than life. The storytelling was exactly to scale of human experience.

While there were plenty of escapades involving battles with Batman and his gallery of rogues, as well as gritty crime stories involving the less flamboyant outlaws, many of the episodes stepped back and took a look at the regular people living in Gotham. Some of the very best episodes involved the smallest of stories involving these always three-dimensional characters.

A typecast actor, struggling to survive after a role in superhero show has rendered him unemployable (Beware The Grey Ghost). A divorced ex-convict, willing to go to dangerous lengths to see his daughter (See No Evil). A mob moss deciding whether to turn state’s evidence after his son gets hooked on drugs (Never Too Late). A disgraced doctor, forced to kidnap a colleague to assist in life-saving surgery on his crime-boss brother (Paging The Crime Doctor). A veteran cop coming to terms with his loneliness and emptiness as someone from his past marks him for murder (A Bullet For Bullock). The Gotham City of Batman: The Animated Series was a real city, filled with real people living lives not unlike you and I. But in this city, that guy who you cussed out after he cut you off on the Freeway — he might just be The Joker (Joker’s Favor).

Nearly 25 years later (dear God), the show still holds up as an intelligent, exciting, tragic, funny, and moving action drama. It is the highest quality adult entertainment, that just happens to be pitched at a level that still renders it appropriate for children. It is easily one of the finest cartoons ever made, and perhaps the very best adaptation of a comic book in any medium.

It had a loose continuity with several of it's villains, such as Clayface, Mr. Freeze, Man Bat, The Clock King, and the on going relationship between Batman and Catwoman. One of the reasons why the show is so easy to watch is that you can slot in any episode and watch it without worrying having missed the previous episode or episodes, unless it's a 2 parter.

To answer your question about improvements, I'd say Mr. Freeze is a no brainer. He was a gimmicky shallow villain in the comics until BTAS turned him into a deep tragic character with a whole new back story involving his sick wife. Harley Quinn is another gift from this show. So is Renee Montoya.

Thanks for the responses! :woot:

After just finishing my rewatch of the 1st season, my favorite ones so far:

(no order)

Joker's Favor
Heart of Ice
Beware the Grey Ghost
The Cat and the Claw 1 & 2
 
I read Batman Adventures volume 2, the comics that had mayor Cobblepot for 12 issues out of the 17 issues run.
And there is nothing more about Red Hood, or The Phantasm.
Talk about a comic run that ended too soon.
 
Is BTAS the definitive take on Batman? No, it's not, but nothing ever will be. It's impossible for that to happen at this point.

However, BTAS is as close to a definitive take on Batman that we'll ever get.
 
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Excellent post Joker. And couldn't agree more.

Wow, amazing post Joker. Respect. Possibly the most eloquent summation of BTAS' greatness I've ever read.


Thanks everyone.

Is BTAS the definitive take on Batman? No, it's not, but nothing ever will be. It's impossible for that to happen at this point.

However, BTAS is as close to a definitive take on Batman that we'll ever get.

I'm curious what makes you think it's impossible for there to ever be a definitive take on Batman?
 
Thanks everyone.



I'm curious what makes you think it's impossible for there to ever be a definitive take on Batman?


Well, it's simple. After almost 100 years of comic book mythology that will only continue to grow and stretch on forever, there isn't even a definitive comic book take on Batman.

Let's use a series like Lord of the Rings as an example. The Peter Jackson films are essentially definitive takes on that book series. For the most part, they are the books brought to life as described and imagined by Tolkien originally. Some might argue about small changes or additions here or there, but all will agree that it's unlikely that another film series could ever be more true to the source material. Same goes for the Harry Potter films adapted from the books.

A character like Batman, however, has existed through multiple eras of comic books, drawn and written by countless artists and writers, reimagined over and over again. Because of this, we all have different ideas and visions of what constitutes as a "definitive" Batman. This is one of the main reasons that no matter how a live-action Batman is executed, and no matter how close he comes to a specific comic era, there will always be people who are unhappy with how he looks, talks acts, and is portrayed within the context of that film universe. Even since BTAS and the Timm-verse concluded, we've already seen more reimaginings and canonical Batman events in the comics along with the creation of the New 52, that weren't reflected in BTAS.

BTAS did an amazing job of representing the Batman and his supporting characters. The series often perfectly lifted major comic book arcs and emulated others pretty damn well, sometimes improving upon the source material and characters. But key aspects of the definition of "definitive" are for something to be complete, accurate, authoritative, and not to be argued about. While I agree that BTAS nearly reached that point, the fact is that no Batman adaptation ever will because with a character like Batman, there will always be something that could be argued about or told in a different way. Furthermore, the only thing that could ever have a shot at being an authoritative representation of the Batman source material would be an all-encompassing encyclopedia.

What I said wasn't meant to be a slight against the BTAS universe, and it certainly wasn't my intention to argue over the merits of BTAS. It definitely is the closest thing to a "definitive" Batman adaptation outside of the comic books that we'll ever get. My point, however, is that creating something definitive from the Batman source material is pretty much impossible since, like I said, we wouldn't even likely be able to agree on what the definitive comic book Batman is, nor should we be able to.

An equation like 2 + 2 has a definitive answer: 4. A character like Batman doesn't have a definitive answer or representation, and likely never will. It's one of the things I love about the character and superheroes in general.
 
I understand your logic, it's a good one. I can't fault you for having that opinion. I never saw your comment as a slight against BTAS either. Something doesn't have to be definitive to be great.

But I also understand the logic of people who feel BTAS is a definitive take because it covered so much ground, so many characters, and took elements from just about every era of Batman. You can see so many takes on Batman's mythology in BTAS.
 
I understand your logic, it's a good one. I can't fault you for having that opinion. I never saw your comment as a slight against BTAS either. Something doesn't have to be definitive to be great.

But I also understand the logic of people who feel BTAS is a definitive take because it covered so much ground, so many characters, and took elements from just about every era of Batman. You can see so many takes on Batman's mythology in BTAS.

I, too, find it to be pretty definitive. I really wish it never ended.

Although, like I said, there's no such thing as THE definitive take on Batman. That's not so much an opinion, but a technical fact.
 
I honestly think, it’s the closest thing we’re ever going to get to have a definitive Batman.
 
That's the thing though. "Pretty definitive" or "closest thing to definitive" isn't quite the same thing as "THE definitive". I tend to agree with TheShape in that I don't think that quite exists for Batman, not when the character has thrived so much on reinvention and being "redefined", if you will, over the decades.

I would say that BTAS and the DCAU Batman is definitely the most inclusive and comprehensive version of mythology aside from the comics. It's like a giant melting pot of Batman goodness. So I could certainly see why many are inclined to label it definitive.
 
I consider this version of Batman's story and what's not to be the best.
Proper adaption, and added bonus.
 
This may be killing the mood, but I felt I should contribute to the thread. I don't know if these pictures have been posted up yet, but here are the original designs for Penguin and Catwoman that went unused. I think they both look awesome, and much more appealing than the ones that were used.

112px-Beta_Penguin.gif


dcau-catwoman-001.gif


tumblr_mz9vs9zO9J1tp6rxbo1_500.jpg
 
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And they used the Burgess Meredith lookalike design for TNBA
 
The only reason they used the Danny DeVito type Penguin design is because WB forced them to in order to help promote Batman Returns. Same with the blond Selina Kyle. I much prefer the classic Penguin look they originally wanted there. At least they got to use it in TNBA.
 
That fourth drawing of Catwoman is beautiful, it's the perfect mix of BReturns and Cooke.
 
The only reason they used the Danny DeVito type Penguin design is because WB forced them to in order to help promote Batman Returns. Same with the blond Selina Kyle. I much prefer the classic Penguin look they originally wanted there. At least they got to use it in TNBA.
Hhmmm.
Movies influenced cartoons even back in the early 90s.
At least the designs don't feel too much like "look, movie cool, right? Here's this"
 
For a character with such a long history I would imagine coming up with THE definitive take is something that would be problematic. It's like, which stories, character traits do you draw from?? Do you try and combine certain elements or just pick and choose separate ideas and stick with those?? Lots of options.

So...I'm sure this has been roundtabled before but what is everyone's top 5 episodes?
 
What's the fourth Catwoman design supposed to be? An early TNBA design? Even though it has the same stupid pale skin, it looks much better than final one. Same with the original Penguin. Pity that they didn't give it much use in TNBA. Stupid executive meddling, I always hated deformed Penguin and blonde Catwoman. They were among the very few BTAS designs I disliked.
 
My top 5 episodes would have to be..

#1-The Demon's Quest
#2-Over The Edge
#3-The Man That Killed Batman
#4-Heart of Ice
#5-Almost Got I'm
 
#1 Feat of Clay 1&2
#2 Almost Got 'Im
#3 The Joker's Favor
#4 Heart of Ice
#5 Two Face 1&2
 
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