Gotham The Official Cameron Monaghan As Jerome Valeska/(Possibly) The Joker

[Arachnerd]

Didn't know there was a previous thread for Cameron Monaghan, so good call to whoever merged this with mine and the other Jerome thread.

 

[Wildcard]

It would be so cool if his face turns white since its been detached for so long.

Except his face was only detached for less than a day and that'd be an overall horrible way of explaining how he gets perma-white skin. It just doesn't fit...and especially with it being reattached properly, after healing the color would ultimately return in full anyway.

Just drop his ass in chemicals and call it a day.

 

[gdw]

As much as I am LOVING Cameron as Jerome, and enjoying Gotham in general, I still feel like they're going too far too soon.

With the Joker, in particular, one of the great things is that no one really knows who he is. I don't mind him having (potential) back stories, ala Killing Joke, but never actually knowing for certain which, if any, are real.

They kind of implied they would be doing similar in the series, at least by having several red herrings along the way, and they have, sort of. There were nods early on, like with the comedian at Fish's club, but they were always more Easter Eggs, rather than any sort of real "potential Jokers."

When they killed Jerome, it felt like they finally were actually going that route, but then they doubled down by saying Jerome would be the "inspiration" for the Joker. Because, as we all know, if there's anything that defines the Joker, it's that he's a copycat.

Of course, now they've resurrected him, which all but confirms he's not the inspiration for the Joker, he IS the Joker.

Cool, whatever, but now were back to, not only the audience knowing who the Joker really is, but Bruce, Gordon, and ALL OF GOTHAM now will know who he really is.


To be fair, I felt like Scott Snyder was sort of doing something similar with Zero Year, wherein there was a clear "candidate" the whole arc, with Bruce even tracing down the supposed "real" identity of the Red Hood leader.
However, they managed to, more or less, pull that rug out from under us, leaving it open as to who REALLY is the Joker.

'But, gdw, couldn't they just be doing exactly the same thing on Gotham?'
Yes, of course, except they kinda already shot themselves in the foot once they resurrected Jerome.
Now, I don't mind that they've established they can resurrect people. I don't mind Jerome being resurrected, or the Joker constantly coming back from the seemingly impossible. That's always been a part of his stories.
The problem is the fact that EVERYONE KNOWS Jerome has been brought back already. Hell, they even had a throw away line in the last episode about how, if they did kill him, he'd probably just come back to life again.

This makes it all but impossible for them to truly create any doubt over who really is the Joker.
The only way they COULD have put any real doubt on the notion of Jerome being the actual Joker would be to "kill" him off again. However, as everyone already has seen him come back once, no one in Gotham could seriously have any doubt, once the FINAL Joker shows up, that he isn't actually Jerome, resurrected again.

 

[Arachnerd]

Here's the problem though. You're still stuck with the real Joker being nothing but a copycat of Jerome. And realistically, people wouldn't be as terrified as him because of how unique and a wildcard he should be, and in the end always compare him to "that ginger maniac who tried to spread anarchy a few decades ago".

The Joker would always be in Jerome's shadow, and that wouldn't be a good thing. I'd rather they keep Cameron Monaghan as the Joker because of how terrific and entertaining he is despite the origin story. He hits all the right notes and it'd be a great shame if they didn't take that path with him due to the fanboys crying: "Joker isn't supposed to have an origin!". Because different interpretations don't exist, apparently.

Gotham has become an Elseworlds tale. It's not canon, so it may as well have the choice to do what it wants as long as any significant characters and major villains from the comics aren't killed off.

 

[ZIPBAGS]

I agree with SkullDevil. If Joker is not Jerome...He will always be a copycat.

 

[Wildcard]

Let's not forget the backlash that would likely come with deciding to not make Jerome THE Joker. He's put in a critically acclaimed and universally loved performance. All of a sudden saying he isn't the real deal wouldn't sit well with anyone.

At this point it'd be like revealing Jim Gordon isn't the real Jim Gordon and that he has a twin brother somewhere that's gonna step in for him.

 

[Arachnerd]

Well, Marvel sorta pulled that trick with Mandarin, and we all know how that turned out.

But yeah, the backlash would not be a pretty sight. They don't have to officially confirm him as the Joker (though Cameron is basically doing that with his recent statements), but it's 99% obvious at this point that someday he'll evolve into him. Think a mirror contrast to Bruce's progression into Batman.

 

[Wildcard]

^ That's exactly what I like about them actually giving Joker an origin this time. It's been done in a way that reflects Bruce's ascension to hero status, but most importantly, it's been done without taking away the intrigue of the Joker's character.

Even in knowing where he comes from and knowing how he gets to where he'll ultimately be, it was done in a captivating way that didn't take away from the character.

In fact, I'd say that the introduction of Jerome has only been beneficial to Joker's mythos, rather than a detriment as most believed it would be when he was first brought on.

 

[Arachnerd]

Not only that, but this time, it seems Jokerome has sown the seeds for Batman rather than the usual vice-versa, which I find refreshing.

 

[Wildcard]

Not only that, but this time, it seems Jokerome has sown the seeds for Batman rather than the usual vice-versa, which I find refreshing.

Didn't even think about that but yeah, it is certainly a nice change of pace.

One other thing I keep wondering about, though, is how much they'll change Cameron's appearance when he goes full on Joker. Given what he's done, unless he has dramatic change to his look beyond green hair and white skin, they'll still know it's Jerome.

Or will tptb make no attempt to have Gotham shy away from knowing they're one in the same when that time comes?

 

[Steelsheen]

Well, Marvel sorta pulled that trick with Mandarin, and we all know how that turned out.

But yeah, the backlash would not be a pretty sight. They don't have to officially confirm him as the Joker (though Cameron is basically doing that with his recent statements), but it's 99% obvious at this point that someday he'll evolve into him. Think a mirror contrast to Bruce's progression into Batman.

#THIS

what we saw in the Winter Finale is the birth of the forever-locked-in-constant-struggle archnemesis Batman V Joker. which i very much appreciated and i think is the first time seen on screen.

Not only that, but this time, it seems Jokerome has sown the seeds for Batman rather than the usual vice-versa, which I find refreshing.

exactly. and what i was happiest about this is the explanation of how and why Batman has a no-kill code. just brilliant writing and filming all around




edit: ok might as well ask this here since this is the Cameron thread, but in the even that Gotham S4 gets the go ahead, and Jerome's role will likely get bigger, how will Cameron balance Gotham and his other show Shameless? i mean that other show is just as popular and in demand as Gotham is over at the other network.

 

[Arachnerd]

Didn't even think about that but yeah, it is certainly a nice change of pace.

One other thing I keep wondering about, though, is how much they'll change Cameron's appearance when he goes full on Joker. Given what he's done, unless he has dramatic change to his look beyond green hair and white skin, they'll still know it's Jerome.

Or will tptb make no attempt to have Gotham shy away from knowing they're one in the same when that time comes?

Hard to say at this point. I remember reading an interview a couple days back where Cameron stated he had a few ideas for Jerome's appearance when he comes back. Don't recall from what site, though.

 

[Kathemy]

Not only that, but this time, it seems Jokerome has sown the seeds for Batman rather than the usual vice-versa, which I find refreshing.

I had a take on that in the review I just posted.

 

[Wildcard]

Hard to say at this point. I remember reading an interview a couple days back where Cameron stated he had a few ideas for Jerome's appearance when he comes back. Don't recall from what site, though.

I saw headlines for it but haven't read it yet. Gonna go find it later and give it a read.

 

[gdw]

That's a valid point, that no matter what, a Joker who's not explicitly Jerome will be viewed as a copy cat.

This is, ultimate, probably more of a personal issue, than anything else.

As much as I'm enjoying it, and Gotham was always going to push this territory delving into the "secret origins" of Batman's rogues, I guess I just worry about it pushing things and muddying them up like Smallville. Wherein you are forced to make many leaps in logic to accept where the show will ultimately head.

As much as Bruce will know that the Joker is Jerome, it's hard not to believe that the Joker wouldn't know, or at least suspect Bruce under the cowl, after their encounters. Specifically the last one.

Same with Gordon. He's definitely going to know it's really Bruce. Though this I don't mind as much, as I've always been open to the idea that he knows, and Bruce even knows he knows, and they just don't acknowledge it. r, Gordon chooses to remain wilfully "ignorant."

Just had a thought regarding Jerome actually. How they could sort of invert the "anonymity" thing, while still drawing from the comics.
When he emerges from his chemical bath, his mind is a mess, and Jerome has no conception of (or refuses to acknowledge) the Jerome identity. Only his knew identity as The Joker.
He would certain resent the implication that he was derivative of anyone before him, combined with his mental mess, and lack of coherence in his own mind about his past, this would make sense.
He could even get angry at even the suggestion that he could have been someone else "before."

 

[Arachnerd]

That's pretty much the only way I could somewhat see the chemical bath idea working. Jerome "dying" and Joker being born. Problem is, Jerome already has a lot of Joker traits, so I don't think it would work.

In the comics, when Joker found out that Bruce was Batman, he really didn't give a crap.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Everyone knew Joker's origin in the 1989 Batman movie and no one had a problem with that. So I'm not sure why all of a sudden this is a big deal other than just another way to hate on Gotham because it isn't a slave to the comic books.

 

[Mindreaper21]

Joker has no definitive origin, its just that the chemical bath is very popular. I never liked that origin anyway.

 

[Wildcard]

That's pretty much the only way I could somewhat see the chemical bath idea working. Jerome "dying" and Joker being born. Problem is, Jerome already has a lot of Joker traits, so I don't think it would work.

In the comics, when Joker found out that Bruce was Batman, he really didn't give a crap.

That's true sometimes, but not all the times. In Endgame when he found out he went to extra lengths to make Batman's life a true living hell. The result? One of the best Batman stories ever told (imo).

I've always seen the Joker as someone who, unlike Green Goblin, wouldn't necessarily go out of his way to find out the true identity of his nemesis, but would certainly use it to his advantage if he did.

 

[ZIPBAGS]

I really like this way of Joker being created....You can see his decent into total madness.

 

[Kathemy]

Everyone knew Joker's origin in the 1989 Batman movie and no one had a problem with that. So I'm not sure why all of a sudden this is a big deal other than just another way to hate on Gotham because it isn't a slave to the comic books.

Yeah, it's just another way to hate on Gotham. People go anal trying to find reasons to hate on this show.

 

[Wildcard]

Gotham has experimented with some things that don't work and others that made no sense at all, but I honestly can't fathom how anyone could try to argue that Jerome isn't the show's strongest development thus far. The kid's gotten critical acclaim & imo, his origin here is far more interesting than in '89 where he's more or less a common thug.

 

[NotNickFury]

I can. Particularly given how much screen time Jerome has had compared to other characters. I'd argue that the likes of Nygma, Oswald, heck, even Barbara have had stronger character development than Jerome, partly because we've spent more time with them than Jerome.

So yeah, I like Jerome and all, but I wouldn't even begin to call him Gotham's strongest development. And really, it's not hard to top the Joker in '89.

 

[Arachnerd]

To be fair, you can't exactly have a heck lot of developtment with Jerome compared to those characters, who appear in nearly every episode, compared to him since he's only popped up in seven episodes so far and one of the major reasons why is due to Cameron being busy with other projects/shows.

 

[Wildcard]

I disagree wholly and think Jerome is greatly developed, even more so than other characters that have appeared in more episodes. So I'd definitely disagree that Barbara has more/better development. A lot of the times the actress comes across as trying too hard & despite having a larger role, has left a rather small impact compared to Jerome, who is a certified show stealer.

There's a great deal of development with Jerome and each time he's appeared he's evolved and Cameron's done a superb job of hitting new beats with every outing. So I definitely can't agree that he's underdeveloped in any way.