Hyperbolic bashing should not be presented as fact, but then again, it wouldn't be hyperbolic bashing otherwise.
This show has made sense - in fact it's made much more sense than most comic book shows on a character development level - up until the end of season 2, with only minor hick-ups (example - Selina's one-episode character assassination in the season one finale.) In fact I have written lots about this and the only thing people come up with in return is ignorance as defense and weapon.
However I am trying to be honest here, assuaging the problems actually here, but as per usual people are only using these qualified admissions as excuses for taking cheap potshots at the show.
The recasting of Poison Ivy may be the first unforgivable mistake of the show. I have explained why in numerous posts. That's what's called jumping the shark.
I've already explained that. This is not like Bruce Wayne or Selina Kyle being recast. This decision on its own isn't going to murder the show. However this is an extremely bad signal. Clare Foley had been on the show for two years and she was just getting to the age where her role could believably be expanded using the same actress. Instead they decide to recast her with someone fourteen years older and the only reason for that is to sex her up and throw her - a 28-year-old woman - at 15-year-old Bruce Wayne as a love interest.
They're skipping all of her evolution from the deadpan, asocial teenager into the psychotic eco-terrorist seductress, instead opting to wave a magic wand at her, and this is a show specifically about the evolution of Gotham's villains and characters.
It's an indication that the show has lost faith in its concept. It's an indication that the show has lost faith in its future. It's an indication that the show has lost respect for its thematic coherence.
I've already explained that. This is not like Bruce Wayne or Selina Kyle being recast. This decision on its own isn't going to murder the show. However this is an extremely bad signal. Clare Foley had been on the show for two years and she was just getting to the age where her role could believably be expanded using the same actress. Instead they decide to recast her with someone fourteen years older and the only reason for that is to sex her up and throw her - a 28-year-old woman - at 15-year-old Bruce Wayne as a love interest.
They're skipping all of her evolution from the deadpan, asocial teenager into the psychotic eco-terrorist seducress, instead opting to wave a magic wand at her, and this is a show specifically about the evolution of Gotham's villains and characters.
It's an indication that the show has lost faith in its concept. It's an indication that the show has lost faith in its future. It's an indication that the show has lost respect for its thematic coherence.
Well said. I feel sad for the kid who lost her role for silly reasons. Apparently Jessica Lucas, Erin Richards, Jaimie Chung and Morena Baccarin don't have enough sex appeal. The kid playing Selena should be safe, for now.
I've already explained that. This is not like Bruce Wayne or Selina Kyle being recast. This decision on its own isn't going to murder the show. However this is an extremely bad signal. Clare Foley had been on the show for two years and she was just getting to the age where her role could believably be expanded using the same actress. Instead they decide to recast her with someone fourteen years older and the only reason for that is to sex her up and throw her - a 28-year-old woman - at 15-year-old Bruce Wayne as a love interest.
They're skipping all of her evolution from the deadpan, asocial teenager into the psychotic eco-terrorist seductress, instead opting to wave a magic wand at her, and this is a show specifically about the evolution of Gotham's villains and characters.
It's an indication that the show has lost faith in its concept. It's an indication that the show has lost faith in its future. It's an indication that the show has lost respect for its thematic coherence.
Here, though, like the rest of the villains on the show, he's being represented as a newcomer, and someone who's just coming into his own as a villain. Hence the watch: he'll use it as part of his hypnotic gimmick. FOX's official description of Mr. Jervis Tetch reads:
"Jervis Tetch is a talented hypnotist teetering on the edge of madness. He arrives in Gotham with an unwavering desire to find his sister, Alice, a young woman who went missing in the city years ago. It is anyone’s guess just how far down the rabbit hole he’s willing to go in order to find her."
Highlights:
- Season 3 will focus on 2 new villains and 2 established villains
- Mad Hatter's storyline will be tied to his sister
- Bruce will have a new guise (playboy billionaire) to throw people off his true motivations
- Selina will meet one of her parents but it isn't what she wished for (why do I have a Very strong feeling that it'll be Falcone's son/ Lee's new love interest?)
- Penguin gets into politics, seeks help/ support from his best buddy Ed but there'll be conflicts/ friction.
Edit: Oh and S3 group pic:
And regarding new Ivy, according to the Fox TCA last Sunday:
Ivy moves from socially odd 15 year old to the mature, maybe more willing to harm people 16 year old.
EP Stephens says they switched Poison Ivy's because one of the themes of Gotham is transformation, citing Fish & even Bruce.
Gotham's Poison Ivy had to be recast to play up the accelerated coming-of=age story and the character's seductive nature.
EP John Stephens: Ivy has a lot of abilities -- there's a coming of age story that happens very fast.
So apparently Ivy was 15 years old in S2 (fine because Claire was 14 and a half when she filmed her last scene), now in S3 she'll turn 16 but she'll look like Maggie Geha (who's 28). I think they drop the "mentally the same girl but physically look 19" (which is reasonable because if she's still mentally 15/16 then what is the point of saying "she looks 19" if she's portrayed by a 28 year old woman?)
Yeah I think the 2 established villains are Penguin and Riddler (I mean who else) but I'm not sure about the 2 new villains, there seems to be several villains in Season 3 that it's difficult to keep track on who they will focus on.
How the show will handle its new Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, Solomon Grundy, Killer Croc, and the return of Hugo Strange and the Falcones.
BY JIM VEJVODA
I spoke with Gotham's executive producers John Stephens and Ken Woodruff and several cast members this week at FOX's Television Critics Association after party about what fans can expect from Season 3, which premieres September 19th. We've already learned that "proto" versions of Killer Croc and Harley Quinn will appear this season, although "you may have already seen Harley as a person that you thought you had met and known for a long time."
Here are nine more things the Gotham brass and cast revealed to IGN about what's in store for Season 3, starting with ...
How and Why Poison Ivy is All Grown Up Now
With Maggie Geha playing a suddenly older version of an Ivy Pepper heretofore depicted as a child, Stevens explained how the character will be aged up and why they chose to do that. "The idea of Poison Ivy came along because one of the escapees from Indian Hill has the power when he touches you he takes away years of your life, he ages you immediately," Stevens explained. "So he touches Ivy early on but he didn’t hold onto her for very long so he does a little bit of aging [to her]. So for us we really wanted to play with the idea of transformation. Version one of the character, version two. And so much of Ivy of the canon that we wanted to play, we had to make her a little older."
So if there's a character who can age someone by years does this open the door for Gotham to age up Bruce so he can become Batman? "We’re not going to be aging Batman up anytime soon," Stevens said firmly.
No, Poison Ivy and Bruce Wayne Will Not Hook Up
"They're definitely going to have a relationship with each other. It's not going to be a romantic one, necessarily. It's going to be more of a sister figure to him," said Bruce Wayne actor David Mazouz. "They'll be very involved with each other. And they will have major influences in each others lives. She will be a major part of his life, especially towards the middle of this season."
Poison Ivy: Of Super Powers and Being a Femme Fatale
"I don’t think we’ll see any super powers stuff. I think that would be way further down the line especially since this is an origin story show," said Maggie Geha, who succeeds Clare Foley in the role of Ivy "Pamela" Pepper. "So I think it’s going to be more about discovering how other people perceive her and what means. A lot of people are focused on her sexuality. I think Ivy, in my opinion, doesn’t really feel sexual about anybody. I think if she notices this person is attracted to me, finds me appealing in a sexual way, I’m going to use that to my benefit. It’s more of a manipulative thing than anything."
Alfred Pennyworth Gets a Love Interest
Exec producer John Stevens revealed that "Alfred finds love. He has a sixteen-year-old boy [Bruce] who, as these things happen, naturally kind of grows away from him. And suddenly someone enters his life who is connected to another character and Alfred is left with the idea of the possibility of another life there and it gives us a great storyline."
Lee Thompkins Trades a Cop for a Crook
The Gotham brass previously revealed that Dr. Leslie Thompkins (played by Morena Baccarin), who has broken up with Jim Gordon even as she expects his child, will have a new love interest this season. And it's a fella from the opposite side of the law than her ex. "He’s the scion of a particular Gotham crime family. I think hardcore fans their minds will immediately go to one person," said Stevens.
Could that "one person" Stevens is alluding to be either Alberto Falcone or his brother Mario? Possibly, considering what Stevens' fellow writer and exec producer Ken Woodruff said to me in a separate conversation: "You will definitely see family of Carmine Falcone and you will definitely see Carmine Falcone. He is not gone. He’s definitely still around."
How and When Solomon Grundy Will Appear
John Stevens was coy about how exactly the show would realize the zombified character, who will appear later in Season 3: "It’s difficult to do that without giving too much away but the idea of one is reincarnation, which is one where we obviously already crossed that hurdle. And the idea that someone would want to create reincarnation? Who out there would want to be interested in reincarnation?" Oh, say maybe Hugo Strange or Fish Mooney? Stevens also ruled out Grundy being an existing, living character who gets killed and is then brought back as Grundy: "When Solomon Grundy comes on, he will be a character we have not yet met."
How Soon Will We See Killer Croc?
"The Killer Croc thing we’ll see right at the beginning of the series. We’ll see like a proto version of that," said Stevens. Croc has already been cast but "he’s not somebody famous right now," according to Stevens, who declined to reveal the actor's identity.
The (Brief) Return of Professor Hugo Strange
"He’s back in the second episode," Stevens said, but don't expect B.D. Wong to be in this season as much as last season. "Right now it’s a shorter arc. It’s like I said on the panel of the idea that we want to continually populate our world so we can pull those people in, especially when we can use New York actors and they’re available and we can bring them in. Because if you can bring Fish in and Hugo Strange in again and again, I think it makes the world seem full."
Will Their Mad Hatter Be Influenced by the Arkham Games?
The Walking Dead's Benedict Samuel will play the Mad Hatter, aka Jervis Tetch, in Season 3. Given how creepy Tetch was in the Arkham video games -- a series that also popularized future Gotham villain Hugo Strange -- have the games influenced the show's take on the character at all? "No, not really honestly," said Stevens. "I feel like the character’s an amalgam as much anything. There’s a little bit of the reality from the Brubaker books but also from the New 52 and the Snyder books. There’s some of that, too. From the Batman Mad series in terms of the emotional drive that he has. Benedict is definitely taller than most versions of Jervis but he plays it with a level of naturalistic insanity that I think, he really fills out that pantheon really, really well. But, no, there’s no influence from the games."
Highlights:
- "The idea of Poison Ivy came along because one of the escapees from Indian Hill has the power when he touches you he takes away years of your life, he ages you immediately," Stevens explained. "So he touches Ivy early on but he didn’t hold onto her for very long so he does a little bit of aging [to her].
- "We’re not going to be aging Batman up anytime soon," Stevens said firmly.
- "[Bruce and Ivy] definitely going to have a relationship with each other. It's not going to be a romantic one, necessarily. It's going to be more of a sister figure to him," said Bruce Wayne actor David Mazouz. "They'll be very involved with each other. And they will have major influences in each others lives. She will be a major part of his life, especially towards the middle of this season."
- "I don’t think we’ll see any super powers stuff. I think that would be way further down the line especially since this is an origin story show," said Maggie Geha, who succeeds Clare Foley in the role of Ivy "Pamela" Pepper. "I think Ivy, in my opinion, doesn’t really feel sexual about anybody. I think if she notices this person is attracted to me, finds me appealing in a sexual way, I’m going to use that to my benefit. It’s more of a manipulative thing than anything."
- Bruce is confirmed to be 16 years old in Season 3
- "You will definitely see family of Carmine Falcone and you will definitely see Carmine Falcone."
- Stevens also ruled out Grundy being an existing, living character who gets killed and is then brought back as Grundy: "When Solomon Grundy comes on, he will be a character we have not yet met."
- "The Killer Croc thing we’ll see right at the beginning of the series. We’ll see like a proto version of that," said Stevens. Croc has already been cast but "he’s not somebody famous right now," according to Stevens, who declined to reveal the actor's identity.
- "[Hugo Strange]’s back in the second episode," Stevens said, but don't expect B.D. Wong to be in this season as much as last season."
I have said this before...But, the more the show progresses. The more I believe it. The story plots (with regards to the villains) would have made a great starting point to a Batman: Year One show. You have a 20yr old Bruce seeing all the crap going on in Gotham..including the villains begins to become Bats.
In Fox TCA Jessica Lucas said that the villains will unite with each others in Season 3, and she specifically said the villains also include new Ivy. Considering Tabitha and Barbara will open a club "Sirens" and Barbara did know Ivy previously, I think that Barbara will sort of adopt Ivy and give her a new wardrobe. I remember when Ivy and Selina lived with Barbara in Season 1 when Babs gave Selina a lecture about using her look and charm as a weapon, Ivy had a sort of curious (jealous?) expression while trying on some of Babs' clothes. So I think that after being "transformed" if Ivy wants to weaponize her look (especially with Babs' guideline) it isn't a stretch. And Maggie Geha also said that Ivy will only use her look to manipulate people but doesn't have any sort of sexuality, which is quite consistent with Claire's portrayal (except when she said Bruce was cute)
Well I think his statement was in response to a question "Will you guys age up Batman?", and if the EPs still haven't got any concrete plan beyond season 3, then I think his statement indicates nothing (and I think that "firmly" was just the writer's intention to emphasize, not that Stephens being absolutely adamant about that). Like, yeah if he said "We will never recast Bruce" without prompt then maybe they already have plans to recast, but I think he just meant what he said (that they won't recast soon). So while David being replaced is definitely on the table (and Season 3 is also the first time Bruce is older than David) I think TPTB don't have any concrete plan for that (though if Season 3's rating plummet then I totally see them trying to go for a 20-year-old proto-Batman in Season 4 to save the rating and renew the show for at least 1 more season).
Btw
While Stephens was a bit more cautious in what he had to say about the character -- stressing that she would not appear until later in the season -- his colleague Woodruff suggested Harley may have already appeared on the show.
"You may have already seen Harley as a person that you thought you had met and known for a long time. So we always reserve the right to sort of do that as well," said Woodruff. To which Bicondova, who was standing beside Woodruff, reacted with a genuinely surprised, "Ummm, I didn’t know that!"
Stephens said that, unlike the proto Killer Croc who will be introduced right at the start of Season 3, "the Harley Quinn of it all is a bit more of a sticky wicket but it’s one we’ve already thought about for the character. We don’t want to give too much away but it will definitely be someone connected to the Joker cult world that we have set up. But it’s down the road, later in Season Three right now."
So Harley Quinn will be later in Season 3 (not early season 3), is someone we have known for a long time, is connected to the Joker cult world that has been set up (the Joker's cult has Already Been Set Up, not that it Will Be Set Up, and I think it's safe to assume that the Joker's cult now means the Jerome's cult). So who could be Gotham's proto-Harley? Off the top of my head I can only think of Barbara and Silver, assuming she'll be a female character we have know for quite a while.
"Penguin has found himself again after going through Arkham Asylum and all of that," Lord Taylor said. "And then, also, with the emergence of the monsters and Fish Mooney, it gives him a direction -- in a way it got him to focus on something, so now he’s back to himself, he has a purpose. To rid Gotham of the monsters."
Lord Taylor went on to tease a "unifying mission" for "Gotham's," foes, saying, "Going forward, it’s an interesting storyline in the sense that now all of the villains have a unifying mission -- which is, again, to get rid of the monsters. And you’ll see our three characters reconcile each other — and they need each other in order to accomplish this. Alliances, as they have been since the beginning of 'Gotham,' have been changing, and we’re all working together now for this unified call."
As for Tabitha's path in Season 3, Lucas teased, "...Tabitha and Barbara unite this year, and they have their own..."
Interrupting, Powell remarked, "Girl Power!"
Lucas continued, "They have their own lair called Siren, it’s a night club. So they have some power now -- the two of them together."
They’re definitely going to have a relationship with each other. It’s not going to be a romantic one, necessarily. It’s going to be more of a sister figure to him. They’ll be very involved with each other. And they will have major influences in each others lives. She will be a major part of his life, especially towards the middle of this season.
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