The Avengers The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 6

[Doc Samson]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I always found it stupid that Banner hated changing into the Hulk so much that he didn't want to change in situations that called for.

It's get to a point where I'm like, "alright come on dude, let's be reasonable here".

Depends on the depiction of the Hulk, which comes back to my issue with TIH.

That version possibly (probably) killed men in the bottling factory, especially that guy he ran over and smashed into the wall. He brought down that gunship that exploded & He tried to kill Blonsky with only the formula saving his life. Not to mention he might've killed the Abomination had it not been for Betty at the end.

So when the Hulk himself is displayed with the heroic qualities we expect, I can agree with what your saying, but that hasn't really been the case in this Cinematic Universe yet.

 

[Oruku Saki]

I know, but I still found it stupid and highly annoying.

Same here. On repeat viewings two things stand out about the Hulk t.v. show. Bixby makes the transformation "real". And the show rehashing the same thing every episode. It is very annoying to have Banner trying to get rid of Hulk and basically treating him as a "monster" but every time the Hulk is on screen he is kickin bad guy ass and being nice to good people....i know there are more than a few episodes where the Hulk is raging and the "good person that Banner befriends for the week" looks like they are in danger and the Hulk makes no play to hurt them...he always helps etc...then takes off to be left alone.

I NEVER said I wanted a Banner in control of Hulk...I would rather it be one of two ways...either the EMH route where Hulk and Banner are two different personalities that have to get along and talk to each other behind the "curtain" to figure out who is more suited for the situation....or the WWH, which is basically Bruce and Hulk in harmony wanting the same thing so Banner lends his brains to the Hulk's personality.

I mean Hulk is basically a separate personality...If Bruce ever accepts the Hulk then basically the personalities merge and you get the Worldbreaker.

 

[sabetoonth]

Depends on the depiction of the Hulk, which comes back to my issue with TIH.

That version possibly (probably) killed men in the bottling factory, especially that guy he ran over and smashed into the wall. He brought down that gunship that exploded & He tried to kill Blonsky with only the formula saving his life. Not to mention he might've killed the Abomination had it not been for Betty at the end.

So when the Hulk himself is displayed with the heroic qualities we expect, I can agree with what your saying, but that hasn't really been the case in this Cinematic Universe yet.

Deleted scene confirms three of the guys with Blonsky died, on the way back there's three body bags in the plane

 

[Doc Samson]

Deleted scene confirms three of the guys with Blonsky died, on the way back there's three body bags in the plane

Indeed, I forgot about that.

 

[Kirmit]

Deleted scene confirms three of the guys with Blonsky died, on the way back there's three body bags in the plane

True but it's a deleted scene for a reason, Marvel must've felt in the end they didn't want Hulk portrayed as a stone cold killer.

 

[Gunga Diner]

The "let hulk be hulk" comment means we've never seen Hulk do much more than just fight things or have awkward romantic moments. This time, Hulk is cooperating with others.

 

[El Payaso]

Loved all those transformations. And let's not forget possibly the longest transformation of them all...'747'....when Banner's struggling to control the metamorphosis while trying to pull back on the plane's yoke. Great stuff.

I still don't get how they could have had thrilling transformations back in 1977 and nothing but puffy plastic-looking CGI inflating man.

I'm 41, and I remember reading that same article when the show was on. Definitely not a rumor or an urban legend.

Well, an article doesn't make it true or any less of an urban legend. What was that source btw?

I don't want Banner being in control of the Hulk. I also don't want him enjoy the fact that he turns into the Hulk. What i LOVED about the tv series, was how Banner really loathed turning into 'the creature'; even in situations where he knew changing would greatly benefit his situation, i.e when he was paralized from the waist down, or when he was serving time in a prison hot box on a chain gang.

I really hope they keep this aspect of the character alive and well.

I totally agree with you. Banner in control and making Hulk another day-saver superhero is like a Superman that's a deppresive loner or a Batman who's happy to be Batman.

Having banner not wanting to hulk-out is what adds the basic Jekyll-Hyde/Frankenstein conflict, otherwise is just another superhero.

But I don't see that happening in The AVengers. Then again, a superhero collaborative group is like the last place I'd put Hulk in.

The main problem with that way of displaying Banner's story is that it gets old really fast, and you never get to really feel how very good the Hulk really is!

I don't see how that could get old faster than the (already) old "Someone's in danger, It'll become the superhero" formula. If anything Hulk would become 'just another one' of those.

When Dr. Banner doesn't want to become the Hulk you have what's essential: conflict. Hulk helps, but Banner doesn't want to spend his life a monster but a normal man so he can be with Betty.

And, as long as I remember, in the TV series Hulk was the 'good guy' anyways.

I mean, you want the audience to love the Hulk, not Banner so as much.

I'd say in a Jekyll and Hyde type of story you have to feel identified with Jekyll too.

To do that you can't always have him be the "bad guy" to Bruce's "good guy". Then, what's the point of a villain in any of his movies.

That's just making everything black & white. You don't have to completely dislike one in order to like the other. You can feel for Frankenstein monster, but you should also understand and like Dr. Frankenstein too.

To do that you can't always have him be the "bad guy" to Bruce's "good guy". Then, what's the point of a villain in any of his movies. I mean, the T.V. show kinda got it wrong in my view when they constantly had Banner fighting to get rid of the Hulk; yet every episode Hulk was saving good people and putting criminals and bad guys out of action.....after awhile I'm kinda wondering why he doesn't want to change into the Hulk.

Excuse me, you said Hulk should be the good guy. The TV series did just that and somehow it "got it wrong"?

The TV series did the best when it didn't set things black & white. Hulk was not the bad guy, it was the hero but if you put yourself in Banner's shoes, you wouldn't want to live like a monster all your life.

The good thing about Hulk was that, as a monster he could be heroic but he could also accidentally kill someone. That's when you find conflict: he helps but he can be dangerous, he's a double-edged knife. That way the story is not immediately solved like most of superheroes.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I always found it stupid that Banner hated changing into the Hulk so much that he didn't want to change in situations that called for.

It's get to a point where I'm like, "alright come on dude, let's be reasonable here".

Reasonable is not wanting that a savage beast might kill someone by accident.

I mean, even in TIH, Hulk killed people when he destroyed that helicopter that was attacking him and Betty. And then when he kicked Blonsky. Sure, Blonsky had the super soldier serum but

Hulk didn't exactly know that. It wasn't addressed in the movie and Banner never knew it nor was interested in knowing what casualties Hulk could have caused, but it did happen.

It's but reasonable to try and fix the situation without Hulk causing more deaths. Now, at the end of TIH it was reasonable to bring Hulk in because Abomination was beyond anything in the TV series. There, Banner tried to save people himself. If he really did anything to avoid the transformation he would have kept running from trouble, but he didn't.

I hear what you're saying, but think about it; if it wasn't for the Hulk, Banner wouldn't be in those bad situations to begin with . The reason he ran into trouble all the time, was because he had to keep traveling...because of the Hulk. The Hulk was a curse to him. He also hated the fact that he had no control over what he did as Hulk, nor did he remember any of it. That's really loosing control of yourself. Then there's instances where Hulk, during a rampage could accidently hurt/kill someone. The Banner of the tv show had a conscience. There was even an ep when he was about to commit suicide, because he thought the Hulk had killed a kid -' The Psychic'.

Exactly. Banner was still a hero, he didn't avoid danger when it was about saving someone innocent, but he was aware that Hulk could be dangerous too. Hulk used to tear walls down not knowing if there were people on the other side. He sent someone to the hospital in episode two. that was the beauty of the story, it was the hero that has a tremendous conflict with having superpowers. Very much like in life, where everything ahs two sides and nothing is 100% easy and happy.

It was a very good Dr.Jekly and Mr.Hyde Scenerio. I think that's what Stan Lee based Hulk off of. Having Banner turn into Hulk at will, loving it and being in control the whole time, makes Hulk just another run-of-the-mill hero, who changes into his alter-ego in a phone booth, and saves the day. :

Totally. Stan Lee absed Hulk in Frankenstein, Jekill & Hyde, Wolf Man, because, precisely, it was a curse, but he added something else: Hulk is the monster, Banner wants to get rid of him... but he's a hero, so it's not that easy.

I tell you seriously that the concept of Hulk has little to envy the sources he was inspired on.

That may be, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it's more because of General Ross and his relentless pursuit of Banner that forced him to run away? I mean if Ross and the military weren't so much on his case about wanting to get the Hulk's powers for their own greedy intentions, then Banner wouldn't have to run away as much, let alone stay off the grid.

In any case, from what Whedon has stated for the film's interpretation along with the info that we've gotten, Banner doesn't seem to be in the position where he sees the Hulk has a complete menace to society as we've heard on how Banner isn't as obsessed in trying to find a cure for himself and that he's trying to actually find a way where the Hulk can be used for the goodness of mankind.

He's even gotten to the point where he can get angry now without turning into the Hulk right away.

I agree, if you put Hulk - for whatever the reason - in a superhero group, then yes, it must be all about being a superhero.

I know, but I still found it stupid and highly annoying.

Because...?

Same here. On repeat viewings two things stand out about the Hulk t.v. show. Bixby makes the transformation "real". And the show rehashing the same thing every episode.

I always recommend to see certain episodes (The pilot, Married, Mistery Man, Prometheus and some others) that are not the usual structure but were only about Banner and the Hulk. It was a different thing.

It is very annoying to have Banner trying to get rid of Hulk and basically treating him as a "monster" but every time the Hulk is on screen he is kickin bad guy ass and being nice to good people....i know there are more than a few episodes where the Hulk is raging and the "good person that Banner befriends for the week" looks like they are in danger and the Hulk makes no play to hurt them...he always helps etc...then takes off to be left alone.

Yes, when you - as in "the audience" - know that writers won't have the Hulk killing accidentally someone then it's okay. But Banner doesn't know it.

 

[Oruku Saki]

Yes, when you - as in "the audience" - know that writers won't have the Hulk killing accidentally someone then it's okay. But Banner doesn't know it.

Well, to me, that's crappy storytelling...even in the intro to the show it says that banner is on the run for a murder the "monster" didn't commit. The comics have gotten more right recently...look, the longer the banner/hulk story goes it becomes obvious that Hulk is a good guy...and Banner will eventually accept this and they will work as a team. The T.V. show never got that far....keeping on the path of getting rid of Hulk can only go so far.

Jekyl and Hyde works because Hyde is a maniac that does "KILL" people, has no conscience etc....Hulk is a good entity that just happens to be endlessly powerful. The Hyde dynamic doesn't work as well for Hulk unless you make him more like Ultimate Hulk. Banner hating a creature that saves his ass and many others on a regular basis makes no sense to rehash over and over. Hey, David B. you reap what you sow buddy! Stop experimenting on yourself I say! (such a crap way to set up banner/Hulk to begin with imho) Banner needs to be saving Rick at the beginning, period.

Marvel will never do a Maniacal killer Hulk on screen; so they have gone the comics route and are making Hulk and banner work together; which they have to anyway in order to defeat their enemies...i mean, if we get another Hulk movie, if Hulk fights the Leader, Banner ought to be pitching in to combat the intellect of the Leader...it only makes sense that they "team up" eventually.

If that's boring then why even watch "The Avengers" at all...i mean, it's just a bunch of heroes teaming up to defeat a "bad" guy. Pretty black and white if you ask me.

 

[Doc Samson]

Jekyl and Hyde works because Hyde is a maniac that does "KILL" people, has no conscience etc....Hulk is a good entity that just happens to be endlessly powerful. The Hyde dynamic doesn't work as well for Hulk unless you make him more like Ultimate Hulk. Banner hating a creature that saves his ass and many others on a regular basis makes no sense to rehash over and over.

Well apparently, TIH incarnation does have the capacity for murder, perhaps not in a bloodthirsty manner like the Ultimates, but he has already killed.

I believe Whedon will keep the focus squarely on the team dynamic as he should, which by default, changes the nature of Banner's relationship with the Hulk. But I can't agree that he should just willingly accept his plight, especially when the possibility of murder isn't as far fetched as it was for the TV show.

 

[Herolee10]

Now this is something you don't see everyday on Banner's face; a smile.lol

 

[Gamma Ra]

Its in the air if the Hulk is even mortal. It has been implied that his body lasts forever.

Hulk in the comics can live indefinitely. It was first shown in Hulk The End.

Thor is the only supernatural guy on the team. Hulk is a monstrous creature, but he's still a mortal.

He may not be a 'god' but Hulk does have many super natural type abilities. He can see ghosts, find the location of his gamma bomb birth and detect magic. He could always find Doctor Strange's mystically cloaked home, which even baffled Strange.

The Mightest Motral on Earth! - always loved that tagline.

Tell that to his alternate reality self, Maestro, who told the Hulk that they always return from death. Whether it's 3 months, 3 days or 3 years they always return...which Maestro did, by the way, after being atomized.

The Hulk is functionally immortal but he's still mortal. He can be killed but it’s all most impossible to get him to that point by natural means. The only way to kill the Hulk is to destroy every last cell in his body.



DBZ reference! He's kind of like Perfect Cell.

Good likeness.

Hulk can be killed, but his power allows him to regenerate completely. Hulk in a What If Planet Hulk story landed on a planet where the dominate species was still in it's earliest animal stage of existence. Hulk and Banner were still alive in a new amalgam form that appeared youthful due to them agreeing and becoming one in mind, and were still alive when that species reached an advanced scientific stage.

Hulk is immortal...if you let Maestro tell it.

 

[HUMANIMAL]

yeah and santa exists as well....seriously i think some writers take it way too far with was is possible and what not....not saying that it is not enjoyable but you cant copmare comic book characters with the movie characters this far....
at least if you aint got the money and effort to go this whole distance till to a movie where everything is explained in a for a fanboy axceptable manner and even in the comics its getting way over the top and over done as well....

 

[El Payaso]

Well, to me, that's crappy storytelling...even in the intro to the show it says that banner is on the run for a murder the "monster" didn't commit.

So you just didn't read anything I posted.

Again, from scratch.

Hulk doesn't have to be mean. Hulk can kill accidentally.

Hulk just have to be a nightmare to Banner so he wants to get rid of him.

In real world people would be scared of a man who can turn into a savage beast. No, no matter if he saves people. That's why Hulk was created to be a misunderstood monster. People are afraid because of what he loooks like. Like Karloff's Frankenstein, who wasn't actually bad but had bad reactions and was constantly harrassed.

Hulk = no normal life for Banner => Banner must get rid of him.

The comics have gotten more right recently...look, the longer the banner/hulk story goes it becomes obvious that Hulk is a good guy...and Banner will eventually accept this and they will work as a team. The T.V. show never got that far....keeping on the path of getting rid of Hulk can only go so far.

And Hulk as a superhero can only go so far too. Or maybe as long as there are powerful enemies he can go on working in a superhero team the same way as long as Banner's living a nightmare with Hulk he can go on searching for a cure.

Hulk working as a member of a superhero group might be a way to do it. Doesn't mean any other way that's closer to what Stan Lee intended with Hulk is wrong.

Personally, having Hulk working in a team is absurd. He can't be controlled, but well, let's see what happens if he can be.

Jekyl and Hyde works because Hyde is a maniac that does "KILL" people, has no conscience etc....Hulk is a good entity that just happens to be endlessly powerful. The Hyde dynamic doesn't work as well for Hulk unless you make him more like Ultimate Hulk. Banner hating a creature that saves his ass and many others on a regular basis makes no sense to rehash over and over. Hey, David B. you reap what you sow buddy! Stop experimenting on yourself I say! (such a crap way to set up banner/Hulk to begin with imho) Banner needs to be saving Rick at the beginning, period.

Lol, that's exactly the paradox, the conflict the core point here! He did it to himself. In the comics, he can blame Rick Jones, fate, God, etc. In the TV series he was totally responsible for his condition and therefore anything Hulk does is on Banner. A much better, extreme and conflictive way to develope the character than just heroism went wrong.

I could go as well as saying 'Yo, Frankenstein, stop making that artificial man, or at least don't abandon him.'

In the TV series, Banner's life would have never been endangered if he didn't become Hulk to start with.

Marvel will never do a Maniacal killer Hulk on screen; so they have gone the comics route and are making Hulk and banner work together; which they have to anyway in order to defeat their enemies...i mean, if we get another Hulk movie, if Hulk fights the Leader, Banner ought to be pitching in to combat the intellect of the Leader...it only makes sense that they "team up" eventually.

That way, eliminating the whole tragedy of Hulk.

Banner enjoys to be Hulk, he becomes a hero through the monster. The hero is cheered by people. That's all the Hulk concept is not. It's the actual opposite.

If that's boring then why even watch "The Avengers" at all...i mean, it's just a bunch of heroes teaming up to defeat a "bad" guy. Pretty black and white if you ask me.

I didn't say it was boring. I said it'd make Hulk the same as any other superhero.

 

[wobbly]

Well, an article doesn't make it true or any less of an urban legend. What was that source btw?

Interviews with the cast and producer and direct quotes from them if I remember right (pretty sure both Bixby and KJ said the same thing about it). The reason given was that they thought Bruce was not masculine enough and there was nothing about them avoiding a 'comic booky' alliterated name at the time (They have a big green dude running around and they got all worried about an alliterate name? Hmmm...)

Anyways I remember it was printed in the 'TV Times' (back then there were 2 mags for tv listings in the UK. Radio times for BBC channels and the 'TV Times' for ITV - ITV aired the Hulk and ran the article the week the show came out over here). Recall seeing the same thing in one of the Sci-Fi mags of the time as well (may have been 'Starburst', but it's so long ago I can't be sure).

If you want the actual article it I guess it might be somewhere out there on the web, but remember this was something printed back in the late 70's, so it make take some hunting down.

Bottom line for me, as I was around when the show first aired and it was a pretty big deal for my 9 year old self (so I was eating up all the articles, photos, interviews, etc, I could find), is that I place more stock in what was said at the time the show came out than anything anyone says a couple of decades later blessed with the hindsight of knowing that original reason will be seen as possibly homophobic by the overly sensitive PC thought police.

It smacks of PC revisionist hindsight at its worst (imo). The 'not masculine enough' excuse was and remains a lame one, but I don't see why anyone need get bent out of shape at a decision that was made over 30 years ago when attitudes were undeniably a lot different.

 

[terry78]

That line from Falcon in Civil War when She-Hulk goes nuts always cracks me up.

"You guys keep putting Hulks on the team and then act all surprised when it backfires."

 

[El Payaso]

Interviews with the cast and producer and direct quotes from them if I remember right (pretty sure both Bixby and KJ said the same thing about it). The reason given was that they thought Bruce was not masculine enough and there was nothing about them avoiding a 'comic booky' alliterated name at the time (They have a big green dude running around and they got all worried about an alliterate name? Hmmm...)

Anyways I remember it was printed in the 'TV Times' (back then there were 2 mags for tv listings in the UK. Radio times for BBC channels and the 'TV Times' for ITV - ITV aired the Hulk and ran the article the week the show came out over here). Recall seeing the same thing in one of the Sci-Fi mags of the time as well (may have been 'Starburst', but it's so long ago I can't be sure).

If you want the actual article it I guess it might be somewhere out there on the web, but remember this was something printed back in the late 70's, so it make take some hunting down.

Bottom line for me, as I was around when the show first aired and it was a pretty big deal for my 9 year old self (so I was eating up all the articles, photos, interviews, etc, I could find), is that I place more stock in what was said at the time the show came out than anything anyone says a couple of decades later blessed with the hindsight of knowing that original reason will be seen as possibly homophobic by the overly sensitive PC thought police.

It smacks of PC revisionist hindsight at its worst (imo). The 'not masculine enough' excuse was and remains a lame one, but I don't see why anyone need get bent out of shape at a decision that was made over 30 years ago when attitudes were undeniably a lot different.

I ask because some other member quoted Lou Ferrigno, who actually joined the production a long time after the decision was made.

That and I posted a youtube video with Kenneth Johnson, the producer and creator fo the series, not to mention the man who made that decision and he said it was because of the comic booky sound of Bruce Banner.

Oh and the name Bruce was kept and it was shown in every episode during the intro.

 

[wobbly]

I ask because some other member quoted Lou Ferrigno, who actually joined the production a long time after the decision was made.

That and I posted a youtube video with Kenneth Johnson, the producer and creator fo the series, not to mention the man who made that decision and he said it was because of the comic booky sound of Bruce Banner.

I know, and Like I said, it smacks of being revisionist hindsight. The BB alliteration might well have been a consideration as well but that is not what KJ and others were saying when they aired the show the first time round. I mean really? We have a small dude changing into a Big angry Green dude, no problem. But BB crosses the line between between being 'realistic' and too comic booky?

Nah...Personally (and I stress this is my own take on the matter), I think the 'not masculine enough' reason that was given in the late 70's was the truth. Daft or not I think that is what they thought at that time, and they just don't like to admit it in these oh so sensitive can't say boo to a goose times that we are living in today.

Oh and the name Bruce was kept and it was shown in every episode during the intro.

Yes, on a tombstone. In every episode he was called David (did anyone ever actually say his middle name in the show? I honestly cant remember if they did) and that's what counts in the end.

 

[Kirmit]

One thing I like about having Ruffalo as Banner is the fact he has dark eyes, so when he's going to change and they do the Hulk eyes it's more obvious and instanty changes the appearance of the actor imo.

 

[El Payaso]

I know, and Like I said, it smacks of being revisionist hindsight. The BB alliteration might well have been a consideration as well but that is not what KJ and others were saying when they aired the show the first time round. I mean really? We have a small dude changing into a Big angry Green dude, no problem. But BB crosses the line between between being 'realistic' and too comic booky?

Nah...

Actually... Yaah.

You probably noticed the name was maybe the least of a long list of changes directed at making the TV series non comic booky. You don't see changes directed at making the TV series more masculine, but you do at making it realistic. You have a pattern there, not to mention the man who made the decision confirms you that.

If, as you claim, Ken Johnson had no problems admitting it back then (IF he did) why is he not admitting it today?

Maybe some executive came up with that but show me where Ken Johnson said that.

Personally (and I stress this is my own take on the matter), I think the 'not masculine enough' reason that was given in the late 70's was the truth. Daft or not I think that is what they thought at that time, and they just don't like to admit it in these oh so sensitive can't say boo to a goose times that we are living in today.

Ok then, facts are no longer of any importance here I guess. We all might as well choose whatever the reality might please us the better. I mean, at least I provided a reliable source but who cares about sources anymore.

Yes, on a tombstone. In every episode he was called David (did anyone ever actually say his middle name in the show? I honestly cant remember if they did) and that's what counts in the end.

You don't have to remember. You can watch it on youtube. And it would have been so easy to have left "Bruce" out of the grave and that grave out of every intro. But they didn't, they kept a name that was so un-masculine.

And that is something that also happened in the comics. The name is Robert Bruce Banner. Nobody called him Robert though. I might invent my own "take" as to why they never called him Robert?

 

[samsnee]

Now this is something you don't see everyday on Banner's face; a smile.lol

Man, ILM is so good. That looks so real!

 

[Quasimod0]

HULK NO LIKE LENGTHY DISCUSSIONS!

 

[Xeno]

Now this is something you don't see everyday on Banner's face; a smile.lol

I swear Ruffalo looks a bit like Peter Falk there.

 

[Smashlilman]

Well apparently, TIH incarnation does have the capacity for murder, perhaps not in a bloodthirsty manner like the Ultimates, but he has already killed.

I believe Whedon will keep the focus squarely on the team dynamic as he should, which by default, changes the nature of Banner's relationship with the Hulk. But I can't agree that he should just willingly accept his plight, especially when the possibility of murder isn't as far fetched as it was for the TV show.

TIH's Hulk don't murder. It was all in self defense. Killing in self deffence isn't murder. At the most it was manslaughter.

 

[BigThor]

TIH's Hulk don't murder. It was all in self defense. Killing in self deffence isn't murder. At the most it was manslaughter.

I agree, what do you expect to happen when you're shooting guns and grenades at a nine foot green man with super strength and invulnerability?

HULK NO LIKE LENGTHY DISCUSSIONS!

Hulk's face looks MUCH better in this shot than it does during his roar in the group shot of the team at the end of the trailer/tv spot.

 

[Doc Samson]

TIH's Hulk don't murder. It was all in self defense. Killing in self deffence isn't murder. At the most it was manslaughter.

Whatever terminology you deem fit, the fact is he killed people. Besides that going fundamentally against who the Hulk is as a character, its reason enough for Banner to be concerned about his mutation, unlike the theory some of you've tossed around where he should just embrace and fall in love with the situation.

I agree, what do you expect to happen when you're shooting guns and grenades at a nine foot green man with super strength and invulnerability?

You have issues with the depiction of Thor's strength, for pete's sake. What if he killed a human or two, would you be cool with that?