The Avengers The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 7

[Gamma Ra]

It makes it stupid because it cheats Hulk out of depth and development . Not to mention any sense of tension or danger. Also, any time we have actually seen people hurt by one of Hulk's rampages (which is many) it means he did it on purpose.

Why does it cheat in his character development?

Where were these many times people were shown in Hulk rampages?

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Good point, Cap'n.

Thanks. I almost had a freaking heart attack when i read the issue (i don't remember which title, i've since tried to block it out of my mind) where Maria Hill reports to Stark that "this time" the Hulk's rampage has killed 23 people and a dog.

I went up to Greg Pak at a con and thanked him profusely for tossing that **** out the window. t:

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

It cheats him out of development because Hulk is not making conscious decisions. Who needs a sense of morality when some silly magic calculations give you an easy out?

Besides all that the idea of someone having what amounts to a giant hissy fit being able to subconsciously calculate ways to destroy buildings without hurting anyone is just ****ing stupid, even for comic books. He's not a reality warper, he's a guy having a fit of rage.

Dude, Hulk fighting subconciously to protect innocent civilians IS a sense of morality. How can you not get that?

 

[Gamma Ra]

So let me get this straight....you're perfectly cool with a man getting hit by a gamma (nuclear) blast, somehow surviving, and then gaining the ability to pack on 800 lbs of size and mass when under stress, gaining the ability to heal nearly instantaneousy, possessing UNLIMITED strength, punch into other dimensions, perceive astral forms, able to leap from earth up into the upper stratosphere...but subconciously estimating how long it takes civilians to evacuate a building is..."stupid"?

Yeah.

And it most certainly doesn't make the character "shallow". One of the Hulk's main attraction for his fans is the whole misunderstood monster theory; a gentle giant who just wants to be left alone. He's hunted by friends, family, and even other superheroes who say he's a threat. Guess what? if people are dying because of his actions, even indirectly, then he IS a threat, and needs to be put down. Pak's retcon of Bendis and Millar's nonsense had to happen.

Hulk was created to be a hero, and a hero he is.

Hey CaptainStacy...what are you doing in my line of thought...you're scaring me.

 

[The Morningstar]

I just think it'd be more interesting for him to actively make those decisions. Instead of some magical plot device crap that excuses him from all responsibility and eliminates any sense of tension and danger from his rampages.

When Hulk goes on a rampage there should be a real sense of "Holy ****!" not "Oh it's ok, no one will get hurt".

Action without tension is just... boring.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Please produce the evidence that Hulk has killed loads of people from a comic scan or tell me where you got that.

Bendis wrote that in the Illuminati book and as you know retconned.

What makes Hulk's ability any more ridiculous than shooting eye beams, humanoids flying through space at the speed of sound or light unaided by a vehicle, guys impervious to bullets, mind controlling millions with a simple thought, a lasso that makes you tell the truth, a ring that allows a person to do almost anything they can mentally conceive, a guy who swings through cities with home made web shooters, etc...you name some more.

This is how I view it in comic book physics. When Banner becomes the Hulk, his advanced calculating scientific intelligence now becomes the innate ssubconscious mind and it's well known that the different Banner-Hulk incarnations are different facts of his Ego, Id and Super-Ego. So why is that so silly?



True. He has never attacked or killed anyone who didn't have it coming, even most of the time when fighting the heroes, it's because they view him as a threat and provoked him.

In battle with another character, Hulk has caused no more damage than any other hero who's been tossed through a building killing bystanders.

Thank you!

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Hey CaptainStacy...what are you doing in my line of thought...you're scaring me.

great minds think alike! t:

 

[wobbly]

If the Fantastic Four, Thor, Iron-Man, etc, call all be involved in crazy battles in the middle of New York City, smashing enemies through buildings for fun and so on, without causing a single fatality, I see no reason why the same cannot be said of the Hulk.

And at least Pak offered an explanation. The FF, The Avengers, etc? They just get damn lucky.

 

[wobbly]

Thanks. I almost had a freaking heart attack when i read the issue (i don't remember which title, i've since tried to block it out of my mind) where Maria Hill reports to Stark that "this time" the Hulk's rampage has killed 23 people and a dog.

I went up to Greg Pak at a con and thanked him profusely for tossing that **** out the window. t:

Bendis casual disregard for established canon at work, the arrogant arse.

 

[Gamma Ra]

I just did

To expand, it means Hulk isn't really this rage monster that is a gift and a curse. Taking away the danger, the tension of Hulk and his rampages takes away any pathos for Bruce and how he deals with it. It also means that Hulk isn't CONSCIOUSLY making decisions on morality. Having it all done subconsciously like some stupid plot device is just incredibly contrived and shallow. It takes away any development or responsibility for Hulk, as an individual. It takes away from any guilt and pain for Banner, as an individual.

It doesn't take away any threat. In comics Hulk only goes after the person that he wants. He doesn't just go through innocent people to do it.

Read Incredible Hulk annual #8 to understand how Hulk thinks.

Hulk has feelings and it would bother him if an innocent was hurt due to him. He is not the wreck less mess that some once in a while readers think he is.

Stan Lee earliest stories stated that Banner influenced Hulk's thinking to minimal degree, Greg Pak explained it as Hulk being able subconsciously know...Now that character growth. Peter David even wrote a stori in issue #353 of TIH, saying Hulk had many abilities that he did not know of...all that to say that that revelation is within the scope of Hulk long history.

It cheats him out of development because Hulk is not making conscious decisions. Who needs a sense of morality when some silly magic calculations give you an easy out?

Besides all that the idea of someone having what amounts to a giant hissy fit being able to subconsciously calculate ways to destroy buildings without hurting anyone is just ****ing stupid, even for comic books. He's not a reality warper, he's a guy having a fit of rage.

We did it again.

I just think it'd be more interesting for him to actively make those decisions. Instead of some magical plot device crap that excuses him from all responsibility and eliminates any sense of tension and danger from his rampages.

When Hulk goes on a rampage there should be a real sense of "Holy ****!" not "Oh it's ok, no one will get hurt".

Action without tension is just... boring.

he does consciouly make his decisions with Banner having the ability to influence them to some degree and vice versa. That's not plot device, it's in his earliest Stan Lee days history though tweaked.

 

[Gamma Ra]

Thank you!

You're welcome.

great minds think alike! t:

Truer word have never been written.

Bendis casual disregard for established canon at work, the arrogant arse.

Which is my biggest issue with that one throw away line from the Illuminati One Shot that many posters and casual Hulk readers have ran away with. Nothing in any Hulk story suggested it.

Only when Samson separated Banner and Hulk in Byrnes first run did Hulk kill innocents, but it was due to Hulk being reduced to the level of an animal and not being create a thought at that point, due to Doc Samson.

Hulk did kill some Russians on an enemy tanker though. But they were a nuclear threat.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

If the Fantastic Four, Thor, Iron-Man, etc, call all be involved in crazy battles in the middle of New York City, smashing enemies through buildings for fun and so on, without causing a single fatality, I see no reason why the same cannot be said of the Hulk.

And at least Pak offered an explanation. The FF, The Avengers, etc? They just get damn lucky.

They don't level entire cities throwing gamma-powered temper tantrums either.

Why else has everyone been going on about how he's such a monstrous threat all these years? Has Hulk been banished from Earth twice just because he makes everyone's insurance premiums go up?

For me personally it strains believability a bit much to think that there hasn't been any civilian casualties due to Hulk's rampages before. And really imo that goes for every supers fight in a crowded area, I just think it's something the books themselves gloss over. You can't just knock over a ten story building at the drop of a hat and not expect people to be inside. It's just one of the hazards of living in a world with supers. And I think Pak's explanation is a bit silly too but whatever works for the individual reader.

 

[Gamma Ra]

Thanks. I almost had a freaking heart attack when i read the issue (i don't remember which title, i've since tried to block it out of my mind) where Maria Hill reports to Stark that "this time" the Hulk's rampage has killed 23 people and a dog.

I went up to Greg Pak at a con and thanked him profusely for tossing that **** out the window. t:

For me it was one of Greg Pak's defining moments as I loved the reveal. Too many lazy writers these days don't take time enough to do their research and have destroyed my thrill of collecting comics. I don't mind changes but I don't like it when they try to rewrite a history they have no clue about.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

For me it was one of Greg Pak's defining moments as I loved the reveal. Too many lazy writers these days don't take time enough to do their research and have destroyed my thrill of collecting comics. I don't mind changes but I don't like it when they try to rewrite a history they have no clue about.

Same here, man.

 

[Gamma Ra]

If the Fantastic Four, Thor, Iron-Man, etc, call all be involved in crazy battles in the middle of New York City, smashing enemies through buildings for fun and so on, without causing a single fatality, I see no reason why the same cannot be said of the Hulk.

And at least Pak offered an explanation. The FF, The Avengers, etc? They just get damn lucky.

I missed this before...EXCELLENT pont!!!

What's all the other heroes excuse?

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

They don't level entire cities throwing gamma-powered temper tantrums either.

Can you quote ma an issue where a city was leveled due to a mere "tantrum"?

Everytime i've read an issue where there's some collateral damage, The Hulk is usually defending himself from someone ELSE's agression, be they hero, villain, military, or whatever.

 

[wobbly]

They don't level entire cities throwing gamma-powered temper tantrums either.

Afaik, nor has the Hulk. He fights enemies who usually attack him (or Banner) first. The damage to the surroundings is no more and no less than any other big hitting hero would cause in similar battles. Biggest difference is that the other big hitters have not had the military going after them on a regular basis.

Why else has everyone been going on about how he's such a monstrous threat all these years? Has Hulk been banished from Earth twice just because he makes everyone's insurance premiums go up

Because the hulk was tagged as a "misunderstood monster" from early on. He was never trusted the same as other heroes because he openly never respected any attempts at control or Authority of any kind.

For me personally it strains believability a bit much to think that there hasn't been any civilian casualties due to Hulk's rampages before. And really imo that goes for every supers fight in a crowded area, I just think it's something the books themselves gloss over. You can't just knock over a ten story building at the drop of a hat and not expect people to be inside. It's just one of the hazards of living in a world with supers. And I think Pak's explanation is a bit silly too but whatever works for the individual reader.

It's as I said: If we can accept the other heroes have never racked up a body count when they have been engaged in pitched battles in built up areas, then we can accept the same for the Hulk.

Likewise, if anyone thinks the Hulk not causing fatalities is ridiculous, then they should feel just the same for every Super hero battle. It is a double standard to to say that the one rule should apply for the Hulk, but the others all get a pass.

 

[Gamma Ra]

They don't level entire cities throwing gamma-powered temper tantrums either.

Why else has everyone been going on about how he's such a monstrous threat all these years? Has Hulk been banished from Earth twice just because he makes everyone's insurance premiums go up?

For me personally it strains believability a bit much to think that there hasn't been any civilian casualties due to Hulk's rampages before. And really imo that goes for every supers fight in a crowded area, I just think it's something the books themselves gloss over. You can't just knock over a ten story building at the drop of a hat and not expect people to be inside. It's just one of the hazards of living in a world with supers. And I think Pak's explanation is a bit silly too but whatever works for the individual reader.

Just show us the issue where Hulk purposely set out to destroy, or went on a rampage and destroyed a city in his normal (one of them ) mind?

I'll save you the trouble, you'll NEVER find it.

Please explain how other heroes have not indirectly killed bystanders in a battle in a major city.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Just show us the issue where Hulk purposely set out to destroy, or went on a rampage and destroyed a city in his normal (one of them ) mind?

I'll save you the trouble, you'll NEVER find it.

Save the insulted fan routine for someone who's interested in an argument, like I said it works for you, fine. It doesn't for me. Sorry if that burns you but I'm sure you'll figure out how to cope.

Please explain how other heroes have not indirectly killed bystanders in a battle in a major city.

I guess you missed this part

-For me personally it strains believability a bit much to think that there hasn't been any civilian casualties due to Hulk's rampages before. And really imo that goes for every supers fight in a crowded area, I just think it's something the books themselves gloss over. You can't just knock over a ten story building at the drop of a hat and not expect people to be inside. It's just one of the hazards of living in a world with supers.

 

[Gamma Ra]

Save the insulted fan routine for someone who's interested in an argument, like I said it works for you, fine. It doesn't for me. Sorry if that burns you but I'm sure you'll figure out how to cope.

It's no routine, and whether it works for you or not is irrelevant, as it doesn't affect what happened in the comics. I just respectfully know you're wrong on this point. So I'm asking you to prove where you got that from just in case I'm wrong because I may have overlooked something, and if it stands that you're right on the point, I can admit I was wrong and that will be that.

Until then it's just your own fanboy desire and wishful thinking in play.

I guess you missed this part

I did. See how that works?

-For me personally it strains believability a bit much to think that there hasn't been any civilian casualties due to Hulk's rampages before. And really imo that goes for every supers fight in a crowded area, I just think it's something the books themselves gloss over. You can't just knock over a ten story building at the drop of a hat and not expect people to be inside. It's just one of the hazards of living in a world with supers.

Good for you, but the other heroes don't possess Hulk's ability to caculate on his surroundings.

Why aren't they looked at as threats then if their presence can bring this danger to lives?

 

[Kirmit]

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Why aren't they looked at as threats then if their presence can bring this danger to lives?

 

[Gamma Ra]

It was talking about by the posters on this board.

Marvel heroes from the inception were feared by the Marvel Universe general populace. One of my favorite panels in a comic was I think, in Hulk #255 wherein Hulk was fighting Thor in New York. Thor tells a civilian not to worry, he's there to protect them and the guy says running away, "Man you're just as crazy as the other guy" or something to that effect, which is what made me love Marvel Comics.

 

[Gamma Ra]

This looks REALLY nice!!!

 

[FrostBite]

I just did

To expand, it means Hulk isn't really this rage monster that is a gift and a curse. Taking away the danger, the tension of Hulk and his rampages takes away any pathos for Bruce and how he deals with it. It also means that Hulk isn't CONSCIOUSLY making decisions on morality. Having it all done subconsciously like some stupid plot device is just incredibly contrived and shallow. It takes away any development or responsibility for Hulk, as an individual. It takes away from any guilt and pain for Banner, as an individual.

For what it's worth, I'll probably be the only one here to agree. Plenty in here are bigger comic book buffs than me, mainly because I feel that comics (as a whole) have gotten so ludicrous that any semblance of the stories/characters I love have been replaced by endless cheap story arcs. The art is fantastic, and despite having better writers than the likes of Stan Lee ever were, the medium is slowly dwindling into garbage. Characters should have died (yes, died) stayed dead, and new ideas should have come out at least 20 years ago.

You can be a hero, and cause deaths. Collateral damage can (and will) happen. Having him able to do everything completely destroys Hulk as a character. Countless incarnations with varying levels of intelligence/different power-levels/heals automatically/sees astral projections/can birth a son/etc. create a convoluted atmosphere where Hulk turns into a manifestation of the audiences indulgence (which, I suppose, isn't unique to Hulk, but most comics in general).

Without anything at risk for Banner/Hulk, the internal struggle is absolutely pointless. There's no reason to fear/avoid becoming the Hulk. Becoming the Hulk through manifestation of rage and then making him cry and speak in long-winded monologues about how some bad guy hurt kiddies doesn't make even the least bit of sense. I'm not saying the Hulk can't care, I'm saying he's a manifestation of freaking rage.

Hulk is a hero, no doubt, he's also been endlessly tampered with and has been transformed into 800,000 different things throughout the years. In an effort to prove his strength/survival instincts authors have gone completely off the deep end in their explanations of his gifts turning him into this paragon of manliness. The ultimate in resourcefulness, intelligence, and compassion without ever giving a sense of turmoil.

It's like taking the conflict of Uncle Ben's death out of Spider-man. It's lazy pandering that undoes the character's initial appeal and leaves the crazed indulgence of living through the character. After all, if we try to resonate with and live through a -gasp- supposed killer, we'd be sick and horrifying.

As for those saying "But, but, then the military has a valid reason for going after him! He's not a misunderstood monster!"

Well, yeah, they do have a valid reason to go after him. Even if he didn't kill anyone or anything he is causing untold and unpredictable destruction throughout the country. They have every reason to actively pursue and neutralize something that could harm/kill anything in it's path and even if it didn't would put untold amounts of strain financially on a national or local government. Yes, Banner should technically be locked up. The wonderment of the story is that we get to see the good man inside the monster, and how that goodness pours out of the beast itself. We get to see that there is something very human there, and we get to sympathize with his curse rather than live vicariously through him (ala Iron Man/Batman and the playboy lifestyles). Banner's a good man, Hulk's a good alter ego, but they are also relatively unstable. That is what makes their plight so engaging to watch. Strip it away and you are left with nothing; absolutely nothing.