The Avengers The Official Rate/Review Thread for Marvel's The Avengers! (TAG SPOILERS!!!) - Part 2

[The Morningstar]

At the end when Loki touches Tony on the chest with the staff

That was because it wasn't touching Stark's actual body i thought.

 

[Big and green]

It's all speculation on my part lol it's just kinda what I think

 

[Crimson King]

Loki tried to directly mind-control Tony the same way he did Hawkeye and Selvig during their confrontation at Stark Tower. He tapped his staff against Tony's chest, like he did with the others, only to have it clink harmlessly against the arc reactor. Loki said, "This usually works...." Tony replied: "Performance issues. Happens to everyone. One out of five--" At which point Loki lost it and defenestrated the meddlesome Stark.


Surely you didn't miss that? Loki also tried to mind control Captain America in Germany by touching the staff to the back of Cap's neck and demanding that he kneel. Cap was still for a few seconds, then he said, "Not today!" In an interview Tom Hiddleston said that Captain America was a special case who could resist Loki's control. In Tony's case, it was the fact that Loki's staff contacted the arc reactor and not his flesh that made it ineffective.

Hah! No, I didn't miss that. How could anyone? But I thought it was pretty clear that it was simply that Loki didn't touch his flesh (to get to his heart) and that's why it didn't work. Stark was clearly affected during Loki's attack on the Hellicarrier. He's not immune.

 

[Big and green]

Hah! No, I didn't miss that. How could anyone? But I thought it was pretty clear that it was simply that Loki didn't touch his flesh (to get to his heart) and that's why it didn't work. Stark was clearly affected during Loki's attack on the Hellicarrier. He's not immune.

He touched him twice, I think if it was a skin contact issue he could have just touched him in a different spot. Wouldn't that be kinda dumb? Loki can touch everybody in the chest but has to touch Tony in the kneecap?

 

[C. Lee]

He touched him twice, I think if it was a skin contact issue he could have just touched him in a different spot. Wouldn't that be kinda dumb? Loki can touch everybody in the chest but has to touch Tony in the kneecap?

It wasn't that it needed pure "skin" contact (the others changed were touched on cloth over their flesh) as it was that with Tony it touched metal and just didn't work because of that.

 

[Crimson King]

He touched him twice, I think if it was a skin contact issue he could have just touched him in a different spot. Wouldn't that be kinda dumb? Loki can touch everybody in the chest but has to touch Tony in the kneecap?

He was aiming for the heart and hit metal. Sure, Loki could have hit him somewhere else to accomplish his task, but something tells me the moment wouldn't have been as good.

 

[Big and green]

Well I guess we'll just have to see if the tesseract and Tony's new element are the same maybe they explain it. Or maybe we'll get another drawing in Howard Starks journal of a hyper cube and his words of encouragement for Tony to discover something he doesn't have the technology yet for.

 

[Drummerdude7]

I think there are definitely hints of a relationship between the cube and the Arc reactor, but I doubt we'll see anything 100% explained.

 

[Big and green]

I think there are definitely hints of a relationship between the cube and the Arc reactor, but I doubt we'll see anything 100% explained.

I agree.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

But this has been my whole point from the start. Why does the Hulk being able to speak full sentences constitute his character being developed? Some of the biggest emotion you can convey in a performance is by emoting and saying absolutely nothing at all. The Hulk in TIH talked more, emoted more and acted with more personality that what I saw with TA Hulk. Banner was more of the central focus in this film, which was great and I don't think anyone's arguing that. But the Hulk was very much a secret weapon and at times a plot device, which from the very get-go is kind of what I expected to see him as in this film. He was not however a plot device in his own film, but a very neat character who showed a lot of personality.

I really haven't seen anyone on the board say anything negative about the Hulk in TA, even after pining for so long for a talking Hulk. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing or calling them out or anything. If you liked him then you liked him, and heck, I liked him too. But could he have been better? I certainly think so. But I disagree that you need him to talk in order to so, and I think since many are silent on that issue, it confirms how I've felt about that.

I've also said before that I'm ok with hearing him talk in the future, but I'm glad that Marvel is having him ease into that rather than just bust him out saying full sentences, especially since no one has seen him do that yet. It needs to be gradual, because if Hulk just started talking like normal in the movie I guarantee you he would have been met with a much different response.

I agree the general audience has been conditioned over the years to believe a talking character loses the power of speech for some unknown reason. (Thanks a lot TV show) Thank god they didn't come up with the idea for his legs to stop working as well.

You can develop a character without speech...but you just made the job a lot harder. (Try making Banner a mute and you'll see what I mean) TIH had a perfect scene where the Hulk normally would talk. That cave scene between he and Betty. There is no reason for him not to speak there. So instead of a scene where the Hulk is allowed to express his emotions, we get a mute non-character brainless rage monster who roars at lightning and stares balefully at Betty.

A mute Hulk works in an Avengers movie. The audience has a whole group of interesting characters to keep them engaged while Harpo Hulk can just step in and smash stuff occasionally to provide thrilling wow moments. Try that in a solo film and the audience has nothing to fall back on. Similar thing with Hawkeye. He was also not developed but it didn't matter because we had so many other characters to keep us interested. But do that with a Hawkeye solo film and see how it suddenly matters.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Hah! No, I didn't miss that. How could anyone? But I thought it was pretty clear that it was simply that Loki didn't touch his flesh (to get to his heart) and that's why it didn't work. Stark was clearly affected during Loki's attack on the Hellicarrier. He's not immune.

That was the way I saw it too. Stark was rubbing his forehead on the Helicarrier the same way Banner did.

 

[Lady Marion]

Hah! No, I didn't miss that. How could anyone? But I thought it was pretty clear that it was simply that Loki didn't touch his flesh (to get to his heart) and that's why it didn't work. Stark was clearly affected during Loki's attack on the Hellicarrier. He's not immune.

That's how I understood it, too. The reactor is a more effective "shield" against the staff than clothes. So clothes don't stop Loki's magic, the reactor does.

And I think also Loki needs to point at the heart. I understood this when he said to Clint "You have heart" and then he touched his chest. (But it could be only my interpretation)

The tesseract is introduced in CA:TFA, Tony creates the new element in IM 2. Imo it's weird when they assume that anyone watched both movies and make out the connection between the tessaract and the reactor.

 

[Golgo-13]

I was really encouraged with what I heard prior to seeing TA. And the Hulk certainly was a highlight. He looked great.

But I'm more than tired of the mute Hulk. It's getting silly how the guy gets no character development or a chance to show a personality. Try this with a solo film and I predict another mediocre box office performance. You can get away with it when the Hulk is surrounded by interesting characters...heck it might be better when you need to give character development to so many. But when the whole movie is about Banner the audience is going to look at their watches a lot and wonder why the Hulk functions as a fireworks display. People will wonder why the Hulk is not as cool in his solo film but I won't.

I say don't bother with solo films for the Hulk. Keep him confined to Avengers movies where him being a boring mute with no personality or motivation doesn't ruin the movie.

I think they were playing it safe with Hulk in Avengers. They knew he'd be liked in the movie, but i doubt they knew he'd be getting the praise he and Ruffalo have been getting since the movies release (especially with all the stuff surrounding Norton's departure). I'm sure he would have gotten more lines and a tad more screentime. Who wouldn't want Hulk to call IM 'Metal man' or say ' Hulk smash hammer man' to Thor? If you notice, Hulk is never on screen for longer than 30 seconds, consistently. I'm sure this one done for budgetery reasons, as well as, kinda making him an over the top background character. The longest he's on screen, without any cut aways, is the scene when he, Cap and Thor are standing over IM, at the end.

As far as no more solo Hulk movies...? . Hulk is Marvels second tentpole character after Spider-Man. Even Feige himself said with DC comics it's Superman and Batman. With Marvel it's Spiderman and Hulk. Now that they've found the right balance for a movie Hulk, there's no reason why he can't get a solo film within the MCU.

There are alot of Hulk mythos that can be adapted to make an interesting solo Hulk movie. i.e The Leader, Wendigo, BiBeast, Grey Hulk, etc, etc...it just needs to be written well.

Btw, take Hulk out of the Avengers movie. Do you think the movie would have been the same?

 

[Big and green]

The tesseract is introduced in CA:TFA, Tony creates the new element in IM 2. Imo it's weird when they assume that anyone watched both movies and make out the connection between the tessaract and the reactor.

Exactly my point Howard Stark studies the tesseract. It's all over his notes and as they say in the movie "pulled it out of the ocean". Wouldn't it make sense that the Starks would want to duplicate the technology?

And yes I do beleive your supposed to tie the two together from movie to movie. Example: the hover car in TFA to the hellicarrier.

 

[Mr.T]

Exactly my point Howard Stark studies the tesseract. It's all over his notes and as they say in the movie "pulled it out of the ocean". Wouldn't it make sense that the Starks would want to duplicate the technology?

And yes I do beleive your supposed to tie the two together from movie to movie. Example: the hover car in TFA to the hellicarrier.

The arc reactor is based off Howard Starks studies with the tesseract. It's pretty obvious Marvel wants the viewer to make the correlation. The whole theme of the self sustained energy source in TA pretty much says that. The scene where they talk about a warm light for all mankind, Banner, Cap, & Tony questioning why Stark wasn't brought in to study the tesseract if SHIELD wanted to get into clean energy.
Also, they show Stark "experimenting" on the tesseract in CA:TFA and pictures of the Cube in his notes in IM2. Hell, they even color the arc reactor the same blue as the cosmic cube. Hydra weapons sound just like IM's repulsors, as well.

 

[Golgo-13]

Just thought of something.

How did Loki get his staff back to stab Coulson with it? The staff was in Banners lab. Can Loki be in several places at once, i.e Banner's lab during the melee and then his 'projection' which tricked Thor into the trap, and was standing there when Coulson first comes in with the gun..?

 

[thalidomide]

Maybe he went to the lab to get it.

 

[metaphysician]

Or possibly he can summon it to himself. Note that the only times he was deprived of it were when he was deliberately letting himself be captured, and towards the end when he was otherwise distracted with flying around and blowing **** up.

 

[BobbyCorwin88]

I agree the general audience has been conditioned over the years to believe a talking character loses the power of speech for some unknown reason. (Thanks a lot TV show) Thank god they didn't come up with the idea for his legs to stop working as well.

You can develop a character without speech...but you just made the job a lot harder. (Try making Banner a mute and you'll see what I mean) TIH had a perfect scene where the Hulk normally would talk. That cave scene between he and Betty. There is no reason for him not to speak there. So instead of a scene where the Hulk is allowed to express his emotions, we get a mute non-character brainless rage monster who roars at lightning and stares balefully at Betty.

But this is very much your opinion. The cave scene with Betty was the part where I saw the most characterization out of the Hulk. He wasn't fierce with Betty, he knew who she was. He yelled at the thunder and cautioned Betty to stay back. He listened to Betty and calmed down when she said it was alright. He was very much like a child trying to understand the world. Why did he have to speak? He emoted perfectly. I don't see how speaking could have made that scene any better.

A mute Hulk works in an Avengers movie. The audience has a whole group of interesting characters to keep them engaged while Harpo Hulk can just step in and smash stuff occasionally to provide thrilling wow moments. Try that in a solo film and the audience has nothing to fall back on. Similar thing with Hawkeye. He was also not developed but it didn't matter because we had so many other characters to keep us interested. But do that with a Hawkeye solo film and see how it suddenly matters.

Again, I think this is still part of your opinion on the Hulk. I don't think he was just used as a wow factor in his solo movie, although I do believe he was just that in TA. I don't think that the creative team behind the solo movies really wanted to go into it with that mindset and I don't think they ever will.

I for one also thought Hawkeye was rather well developed given the amount of screen time he had. I don't know every little detail about his life leading up to the events in the film, but I definitely understood who he was and what his motivation was. Given his own film (most likely a SHIELD film) we'll probably learn more about him.

All I'm trying to get across is that I don't think a talking Hulk is really what most people are pining for. The GA and even most comic book enthusiasts don't seem to be clamoring about it after seeing TA. In the end it's not the most important thing, so long as he's represented well. We all know that the Hulk does talk. He's spoken in the comics for many years now. But when you translate that on screen, it's a very different story. I've said before that a talking Hulk needs to be eased into, and I think that's exactly what Marvel is doing. I think it would be neat to see Hulk struggling with full words and sentences in whatever new film he ends up being in and then gradually speak more, but he's definitely not a creature of words, but a creature of action. He is rage incarnate and that is much better shown on screen than it is spoken. Especially when you are dealing with a muscle bound behemoth like the Hulk.

 

[Quasimod0]

I dont ever want hulk to be a complete chatterbox. Maybe close to EMH would be good.

 

[BobbyCorwin88]

I dont ever want hulk to be a complete chatterbox. Maybe close to EMH would be good.

I couldn't disagree more. Yes to Hulk not being a chatterbox, but EMH Hulk is like a toddler's version of the Hulk. Every time he opens his mouth I cringe. I really kind of hate the fact that we never see Banner in that show, only very little in the first season. He's easily the lamest representation of the Hulk I have ever seen. So much cheese.

 

[The Guard]

The Hulk speaking, saying more than a few insults or "Hulk smash", if anything, could show evidence of Banner's control over The Hulk improving.

 

[BobbyCorwin88]

The Hulk speaking, saying more than a few insults or "Hulk smash", if anything, could show evidence of Banner's control over The Hulk improving.

Either that or the Hulk himself, is coming into his own. Either way, I think Marvel has been doing the right thing by slowly building up to a more literate Hulk. I think Hulk is a creature of action and not one of words, and with all this great special effects technology at our disposal, his motivation is more than capable of getting across.

 

[terry78]

Theory is, they may be saving his talkative side for a Grey Hulk/Professor thing, if the persona keeps evolving.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

But this is very much your opinion.

True. But I also can't help noticing the Harpo Hulk movies don't make as much at the box office as other comic book movies featuring lead characters with the power of speech. Why don't the Hulk movies make as much as Thor and Capt America? And why does Iron Man makes so much more? It's all about the lead character. Banner is somehow the lead character in movies and TV shows with "Hulk" in the title. The box office results mean more Hulk movies are a risky thing because the lead character (Banner) is not connecting with audiences the same way the leads in other CB movies do.

The cave scene with Betty was the part where I saw the most characterization out of the Hulk. He wasn't fierce with Betty, he knew who she was. He yelled at the thunder and cautioned Betty to stay back. He listened to Betty and calmed down when she said it was alright. He was very much like a child trying to understand the world. Why did he have to speak? He emoted perfectly. I don't see how speaking could have made that scene any better.

My question is: Why does he have to NOT speak? Why would a character in a movie not say something in that scene? It doesn't make any sense. Quasimodo wouldn't just stare at Esmeralda. Mr. Hyde isn't a mute. Even Tarzan can speak. We aren't talking about a mute character here...the Hulk has been a speaking character throughout his history.

I for one also thought Hawkeye was rather well developed given the amount of screen time he had. I don't know every little detail about his life leading up to the events in the film, but I definitely understood who he was and what his motivation was. Given his own film (most likely a SHIELD film) we'll probably learn more about him.

I think he should be a mute in a solo film. It'll make millions! That's the perfect way to help develop a character.

All I'm trying to get across is that I don't think a talking Hulk is really what most people are pining for. The GA and even most comic book enthusiasts don't seem to be clamoring about it after seeing TA. In the end it's not the most important thing, so long as he's represented well. We all know that the Hulk does talk. He's spoken in the comics for many years now. But when you translate that on screen, it's a very different story. I've said before that a talking Hulk needs to be eased into, and I think that's exactly what Marvel is doing. I think it would be neat to see Hulk struggling with full words and sentences in whatever new film he ends up being in and then gradually speak more, but he's definitely not a creature of words, but a creature of action. He is rage incarnate and that is much better shown on screen than it is spoken. Especially when you are dealing with a muscle bound behemoth like the Hulk.

I'm curious...how do you know the bolded part? Since a Hulk with the power of speech has never been tried onscreen, how do you know it won't work? Thank God Peter Jackson didn't assume it wouldn't work to have Gollum speak in LOTR.

What we do know is that a mute Hulk has never been as popular as other comic book movies featuring lead characters that are able to express themselves without using sign language. The public wants to love the Hulk (check out the opening weekend for the first Hulk movie)...but the character is never there for them to love. That includes two movies and a TV show. ...I know...fans of that show believe it was "hugely popular"...but it wasn't. It managed to break into the top 30 in the ratings exactly ONCE during its run (26th). And that was when there were only 3 networks and no competition from cable networks. Mediocre at best.

So at what point do they try the real Hulk and let go of this TV version? How many times does it have to fail? I'll predict it again. Another Harpo Hulk movie will again underwhelm at the box office and kill the franchise. If Hollywood is going to continue to believe the Hulk can't express himself as an individual (He's not Banner), then just confine him to Avengers movies where that can work.

If there is a process here where they are trying to ease the audience into understanding that the Hulk can talk I'm not seeing it.