The Dark Knight The Rachel Dawes thread

[BatmanFanatic]

How wrong you are...

No, I don't think so. If I am wrong, then post quotes and sources that in any way equate what people on these boards are saying about Maggie, from anyone ever saying those kinds of things about the women I mentioned, when they were at their peak in Hollywood.

I don't think you can find any record of someone saying that Liz Taylor or Michelle or Grace or Marylin are "not hot enough to be the girlfriend of a billionaire playboy in a film." And as Crook defined objectivity, there is one wierdo who'll say anything, but when the vast majority of people, (if you took a great big survey - 95% or higher ) are going to say that these women rank 10 out of 10 in the beauty department, and that is as an "objective" definition of beauty which is statistically valid as you can get.

What has happened her is that the people on these boards are emotionally invested in the film, in various actresses, etc. Rather than debating who does and doesn't measure up to beauty standards, we should be taking a look at whether ANY of this is relevant to the film. Because while I firmly believe beauty is not so much "in the eye of the beholder" as people like to think, the truth is also that very very few people are going to be born iconic beauties and have their looks nearly universally agreed as 10 out of 10... my examples of "undeniable" beauties are just a few people out of the last 5 decades that clearly fit the bill. Which moves me right into my next comment ....

Her attractiveness shouldn't really be an issue here. Bruce and Rachel grew up together, they have this very special relation. Rahel could be considered Bruce's one true love in the Nolan realm. I don't think Bruce really cares if at all about what Rachel looks like. He was presumably already in love with her as a child, and don't tell me your childhood crushes all became supermodels.

That's basically why I think it's a moot point, because she had the prior childhood relationship. IF she were only a date for Bruce Wayne that he didn't care about and was only used to keep up "playboy" appearances, then her looks would be significant.

Gianakin is right. This is not true. Believe it or not, Grace Kelly was told that she was ugly as a young girl and that she would never make it as an actress. I forget who it was in her family that was so obviously clueless. Now, the other actresses you list dealt with their share of criticism from time to time, as well. Plus, I wouldn't call Pfeiffer iconic; not yet. I'd replace her with Elizabeth Taylor.

And Monroe was a bottle blond. Not denying her legendary status, but the words beauty and all natural are simultaneous to me; implants or hair dye takes one down a notch in my book. A true beauty shouldn't need to alter ANYTHING about herself.

Liz Taylor belongs on the list, but Pfeiffer is an icon of beauty regardless of whether or not she's iconic in her career.

As was already mentioned, what you look like as a girl has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You might have braces and acne as a kid, so what? A womans beauty can only be evaluated after she's sexually mature.

Lastly, hair dye??? Give me a break! All women alter their appearance somehow, so to say a t rue beauty shouldn't need to alter anything about herself is just nonsense. See that picture of Taylor you have? Well she's wearing make-up. Doesn't that alter her? She also has her hair cut in a certain style. It doesn't grow that way if she lived on a dessert island. That alters her too. And she brushes her teeth every morning... that's not natural. But if she didn't do that they'd be all rotten and disgusting, so maybe thats going too far for "beauty?" Implants are a no-no but what about form fitting dresses that raise the bust and flatten the stomach? How do you feel about those? Maybe high heals are too much, because they unnaturally lengthen the legs?

My point is that all people (women especially) alter their looks in one form or another. What is considered "fake" for the sake of beauty is a wide ranging spectrum, and "natural beauty" doesn't exist in our industrialized society. If you cut your hair, wash your face, brush your teeth and clip your nails, you are already altering your natural looks. It bothers me when people draw these arbitrary lines for what is and isn't "appropriate" to do for the sake of vanity (like it's wrong to get breast implants but it's okay to wear a wonder-bra... wtf, same result!)

QFT. To me, these people that go on and on about how drop dead gorgeous Bruce's love interest needs to be are actually insulting the character. Bruce can have just about any beautiful woman he wants, but to me, beauty has always seemed to be a secondary concern for him at best. Selina, Talia, Andrea Beaumont... they were all beautiful yes, but more importantly, they were iron willed, intelligent, and ambitious. Rachel, while not in the same league as those women, definitely shares some of those traits, so it's not surprising that Bruce would be attracted to her, no matter how she looks. And I still say that Maggie isn't ugly by a long shot, and is indeed quite beautiful, but just in a unique way.

I don't think they're insulting the character because they are thinking of the "fake persona" of playboy Wayne. Not his "true" self. Playboy Wayne needs to pretend to be shallow.

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

Honestly, someone may not find Marilyn Monroe or Elizabeth Taylor hot, but you can't deny their natural beauty.

 

[deathfromabove]

QFT. To me, these people that go on and on about how drop dead gorgeous Bruce's love interest needs to be are actually insulting the character. Bruce can have just about any beautiful woman he wants, but to me, beauty has always seemed to be a secondary concern for him at best. Selina, Talia, Andrea Beaumont... they were all beautiful yes, but more importantly, they were iron willed, intelligent, and ambitious. Rachel, while not in the same league as those women, definitely shares some of those traits, so it's not surprising that Bruce would be attracted to her, no matter how she looks. And I still say that Maggie isn't ugly by a long shot, and is indeed quite beautiful, but just in a unique way.

agreed. bruce is not actually a playboy. its an act. why would someone with such intelligence and strong moral center pick a mate who is just a babe? he s not trying to woo rchel or simply bed her he seems to want a life with her at some point. its pretty shallow to say maggie isnt attractive enough for him.

Hair dying is a completely different league, though. I mean...it's just a color. It doesn't alter your physical appearance in any way. Had Norma Jeane () maintained the brunette look, she wouldn't be any less gorgeous.

huh? changing your hair color doesnt change your physical appearence?


and i think norma herself would disagree with your last statement. she often pined about how no one really noticed her until she became the bottle blond we all know today.

 

[Crook]

huh? changing your hair color doesnt change your physical appearence?

I meant it doesn't alter it in the same way a nose job or breast augmentation would.

and i think norma herself would disagree with your last statement. she often pined about how no one really noticed her until she became the bottle blond we all know today.

The platinum blonde certainly made her stand out more, but it doesn't make her any more/less gorgeous. It's just a color after all.

 

[deathfromabove]

The best I've ever seen Maggie look is in "Sherry Baby." I still stand by my statement that on her best days she is cute. But she is nowhere near beautiful. If someone says she is hot, that's understandable, sexual attraction doesn't always require beauty. I don't understand how some people can say she is better looking than Katie though. Katie Holmes is not beautiful either, but she is a lot better looking.

sorry but personally girls with a lazy eye dont really do it for me. you can have her.

i would take maggie over katie in a heartbeat. i did backflips when she was announced to replace mzz cruise.

you can post all the scientific studies or photos or anecdotal evidence you want but looks, beauty and attraction are still subjective. some people find liz taylor attractive some think audrey hepburn is the epitome and others prefer beyonce.

no one is going to change anyone's mind here.

if you think maggie is not pretty enough for bruce that is your problem it would seem.

 

[deathfromabove]

I meant it doesn't alter it in the same way a nose job or breast augmentation would.


The platinum blonde certainly made her stand out more, but it doesn't make her any more/less gorgeous. It's just a color after all.

well, monroe also had a nose job (as well as chin and dental work) so i think armsheldout's point still stands.

 

[Crook]

Crap. I totally forgot about that. Now my image of her is tainted. I hate you.

 

[deathfromabove]

sorry man.

 

[Psoliagos]

That's the thing though, would you define objectivity as the opinion of the majority or the opinion of every single soul on the planet? I need to know how you define objectivity, since I'm a very literal person and I don't want to play with words.
If you go by the 2nd definition, I'd bet everything I own that one soul would not find her attractive in that photo, thus shuttering the objectivity of her beauty.

PS: I find Liz fantastic in that photo, too.

I'm your guy. I dont like her there. Its just a bad pic of her thats all. I generally like her.

Also, i dont really find Maggie that beautiful. She isnt ugly, she just has a droopy face and a funny nose. But i dont see how that has anything to do with her playing rachel. If she was playing one of the bimbos that Bruce escorted in the Lamborghini, i would protest, now, its no big deal.

 

[Gianakin_]

No, I don't think so. If I am wrong, then post quotes and sources that in any way equate what people on these boards are saying about Maggie, from anyone ever saying those kinds of things about the women I mentioned, when they were at their peak in Hollywood.

I don't need to prove my point. If one guy on planet Earth says he doesn't find one of the women you mentioned beautiful, then game over for your theory that nobody had anything bad to say about those women.

As a sidenote, some people around me have stated they don't like Pfeiffer. I've called them crazy and blind, but still, their opinion disproves your statement.

 

[Gianakin_]

I'm your guy. I dont like her there. Its just a bad pic of her thats all. I generally like her.

There you go, although I was talking about people not liking her in general.
Let me ask you, are you from Greece?

 

[Psoliagos]

There you go, although I was talking about people not liking her in general.
Let me ask you, are you from Greece?

Well, pfiffer is ugly though. Real weird ugly. She is Jack Nicholson, but female.

And no, i am not from Greece.

 

[Majik1387]

Well, pfiffer is ugly though. Real weird ugly. She is Jack Nicholson, but female.

And no, i am not from Greece.

Leave the threads and never return. You won't be missed.

 

[deathfromabove]

No, i just think that she has the edges and strained lines that JN's face also has.
She isnt ugly, but her face irritates me. Even more so after playing that crazy Catwoman in BR. God i hate her and Burton for that!

Yeah, go on and hate me now for that.

as long as you are respectful of others opinions most will respect yours.

Heil Hitler!

but as a rule never invoke hitler, nazis, or the holocaust if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Gianakin_]

I have another new direction for this thread: Not resorting to name calling.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

I have another new direction for this thread: Not resorting to name calling.

Oh I see, everyone else can say whatever against him, but as soon as I say something you're all over me. Nice.

I had to go and revise my earlier response toward you. I can't be acting out of character now can I? Scroll up and be sure to check.

Not sure what you are referring to. You mean your post on this page? How far back do I need to go here?

 

[BatmanFanatic]

I had to go and revise my earlier response toward you. I can't be acting out of character now can I? Scroll up and be sure to check.

So what did that bit about acting out of character mean?

I'm aware that most women alter their appearances to some extent, some more than others. Brushing your teeth or even getting them straightened is fine. You're only cleaning them or making sure they're properly aligned in your mouth - the way they should be. Breast or calf implants, eye contacts, nose jobs and yes, even hair coloring, on the other hand, are all a problem for me because it takes body alteration to another level. Now, I don't find color contacts or hair coloring to be a complete turnoff (especially if it's temporary), but it just disappoints me when I'm admiring certain attributes about a women (e.g., thick red hair, green eyes) only to find out they're all fake; it sux. It's awesome that some of you don't correlate beauty with hair color and superficial things like that, but you're stifling your conscience if you think Marilyn Monroe would have been as iconic as she is now, had she not become a bottle blonde. That's not my personal preference, but a lot of guys swear by things like that. It's a sad, sick world.

On a side note, people likely frown on implants moreso than push up bras, because the former is long lasting, a waste of money and can be harmful if done improperly.

As for the pic of Liz Taylor that I posted earlier on, I (obviously) think she looks amazing there, but that hairstyle (which you've commented on) really does nothing for me. I'd probably be happier if she wore it more naturally.

Well you're entitled to your opinion, I just don't completely agree with you. I also think it's ridiculous the beauty standards women are expected to live up to in this male dominated society, and then have guys turn around and say "oh it's soooo disappointing that women are shallow and change their looks and dye their hair and get surgery blah blah." While at the same time in so many social experiments it's been proven that people are biased towards the beautiful, and you are more likely to be hired for a job if you are prettier, you are more likely to have higher pay than an average looking person, etc. So being beautiful is a huge social advantage and what most guys want in a mate, and then some of those guys get all annoyed for some reason when they find out that women are thus responding to the situation by CREATING beauty. And on top of that I'm also sick of people who go on and on about the "natural beauty" of certain celebrities, when if you do a little research it's plainly obvious how many of them have had good "work done."

So what is that, like, "as long as I can't TELL that you've done something unnatural, it's okay"? You want a gorgeous woman and you might love her, but if you ever find out she had surgery in the past or that she secretly dyes her hair, suddenly she's a big fraud to you? I dye my hair. And I'll tell you whats "disappointing" to me, is the fact that I wasnt BORN a redhead. Also disappointing that I wasn't born with a non-dysfunctional family and a trust fund. But life isn't perfect and part of the joy of life is being able to create some of your own circumstances and conditions in life, and instead of B****ing and moaning that I don't like the natural color of my hair, I get it done every month. And I don't think that makes me any less beautiful... it more accurately reflects who I am on the INSIDE.

I honestly can't imagine having a guy who (if they even took any interest) found out that I colored my hair would then turn around and say "Oh I'm so disappointed, it's not REAL!" What bloody difference does it make if the end result is the same and it's how I prefer to look? If you want to talk about whats "real" - all of our social behavior is learned and trained, nothing we do is "real," from being able to speak and read to not bludgeoning someone to death over an argument. We are products of our culture, our upbringing and our society, who we "really" are is entirely relevant.

Anyway, this got long, but ... don't get a girl started, know what I mean?

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Brushing your teeth or even getting them straightened is fine. You're only cleaning them or making sure they're properly aligned in your mouth - the way they should be. Breast or calf implants, eye contacts, nose jobs and yes, even hair coloring, on the other hand, are all a problem for me because it takes body alteration to another level.

Just had to mention this too. What a great example - okay, you look at cosmetic dentistry as acceptable because teeth apparently "should be" straight and aligned in someones mouth, even if they weren't born with straight teeth. Great. So how do you decide what body part "should be" a certain way? Statistical average perhaps? If a baby has a cleft palate for instance, I doubt you would be against surgery to correct THAT. But what if in addition to crooked teeth and as part of the alignment problem someone has an underbite? And therefore in profile their chin looks recessed and way too small? Is it then acceptable for them to get a chin implant to correct the way this looks? Or what if, going by statistical average as a guideline here, some poor woman has a nose twice as long as it should be. Is it somehow immoral for her to get that nose trimmed so she fits in with other people better and isn't forced to endure stares and snickers?

My point is that what you consider "body alteration to another level" is entirely subjective ... on a big sliding scale of what people might do to alter their appearance. I mean, a woman can *drastically* change her looks by getting a certain haircut. Is that as unnatural to you as the eye contacts? Because eventually it will grow out ... But if she never took out the contacts or never got roots in her dyed hair, what precisely is the difference between how she appears to you like that and if it were all "natural"?

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Post a pic of yourself instead. I tripple dare you.

Oh, you wouldn't like me, cause I'm one of those "fake" women with dyed hair AND perm curls. *shock and horror!* I know, I know... it's really over the top and a huge turn off, but I'm just vain like that.

 

[Saint]

Describing hair colouring as fake and superficial is especially hilarious. I'm going reveal a secret here that may shock and amaze people: my beard doesn't actually grow in perfect short-boxed fashion. I have to shave parts of it off to get it like that! Sweet Jesus, I'm fake! How horribly superficial of me!

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Describing hair colouring as fake and superficial is especially hilarious. I'm going reveal a secret here that may shock and amaze people: my beard doesn't actually grow in perfect short-boxed fashion. I have to shave parts of it off to get it like that! Sweet Jesus, I'm fake! How horribly superficial of me!

Ah Saint You can really make me laugh.

Thanks for that

 

[Nepenthes]

^ I'm more surpised by the fact that Saint has a beard. He just doesnt seem like a beard kinda guy...

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Describing hair colouring as fake and superficial is especially hilarious. I'm going reveal a secret here that may shock and amaze people: my beard doesn't actually grow in perfect short-boxed fashion. I have to shave parts of it off to get it like that! Sweet Jesus, I'm fake! How horribly superficial of me!

Who said anything about hair trimming? It's when someone goes out of their way to alter something about her/himself that I take issue. Even Fanatic used to complain about certain girls who look "plastic" if I remember correctly. I stand by what I stated earlier on. It bugs me that certain women feel a need to go out and change their hair color (completely) or get augmented breasts, especially when they look just fine the way they are. A little modification is fine, but why turn into a completely different person (e.g., Michael Jackson)?

Again, this is just my point of view. Try not to take it personally and be sure to do something about that beard.

 

[Gianakin_]

*reads user title*

Ah. It all makes sense.

Don't doubt the Moneybag!

 

[Riddlerswild]

Can we change the name of this thread?
I thought it was about Rachel Dawes?

I was bamboozled into coming here...bamboozled I SAY!

PS: Michelle Pfeifer is hot. I'd rock her walker any day.

Nothing? Sheesh...Everyone's a critic.t: