The Dark Knight The Rachel Dawes thread

[Saint]

Well then replace "reason to lie" with "reason to put on a facade" and you get the same idea.

The same reason everybody postures on the internet, of course. One-up-manship is stronger nowhere else. The currency of forums is reputation.

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

The same reason everybody postures on the internet, of course. One-up-manship is stronger nowhere else. The currency of forums is reputation.

I don't understand where you were going. Is it so unfathomable to state that I have gone out with somebody better looking than the very mundane Maggie G? Whatever point you were trying to make is questionable.

 

[Saint]

I don't understand where you were going. Is it so unfathomable to state that I have gone out with somebody better looking than the very mundane Maggie G? Whatever point you were trying to make is questionable.

As I have explained twice already, I wasn't questioning the truthfulness of your claim. The reply you've quoted is only answering Crook's question of why someone would posture.

Oh, balls: my last post to you didn't go through. Goddamn SHH errors. The following should have been posted prior to my reply to Crook:

Honestly, it has nothing to do with internet posturing. Maggie is not ugly, but I was trying to point out more her everyday-ness in comparison to the average woman than my innate ability to woo and eventually sweep a woman off her feet. But, in all seriousness, you can take it how you want but I stand by my statement.

Maybe I'm just expecting people to argue the way I do, but to me it seems like "I date hotter girls than that" doesn't serve your point at all; it only serves to point out that you, apparently, date hot girls. Hence, the comment about posturing.

 

[deathfromabove]

why does it smell like a high school locker room in here?

 

[deathfromabove]

Okay, I'm going to put on my "objective hat" and respond to the following.



Enough people have already torn this apart, but I just want to step in and mention that Heath Ledger got an Oscar nod BEFORE he died. So don't you dare claim that people are only thinking he's a good actor because of sympathy. It's the bottom of the barrel to disrespect the memory of those who have passed away and I thought I'd speak up for him as he's not here to do it himself.

agreed




Okay - again with my "objective hat" I'm going to say this isn't entirely accurate. There is some degree of variation in what we find attractive, but through my training in painting and portraiture I have learned about a wealth of scientific and mathamatical laws of beauty. There is the law of symmetry, the golden ratio, various proportions, hip to waist ratio, etc.

Any claims that beauty is not "scientific" will have to answer to the fact that there have been large scale experiments done in regards to beauty, and statistically significant numbers of people have all chosen the same traits to be beautiful, across cultural and national lines. This is one good link

http://www.beautyanalysis.com/mba_beautyranges_page.htm

There is a wealth of resources about this subject on the internet, and several universities are continuing their research into our perceptions of beauty and the laws of what human beings universally find attractive.

http://media.www.dailyorange.com/me...uty.Based.On.Evolutionary.Ideals-668070.shtml

http://www.universalhedonics.com/science.html

http://www.yestheyrefake.net/ideal_beauty.htm

http://www.cojoweb.com/phi.html

http://www.geocities.com/Omegaman_UK/beauty.html

Now, how does this relate to Maggie? Well I would put forth the claim that if you did a research project which had a wide enough range of participants to be statistically valid, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being a deformed monster face and 10 being a sex icon like Marylin Monroe, Maggie would probably be a 7 or 8. On the other hand someone like Michelle Pfeiffer at the time she played Catwoman, would certainly score in the 9-10 range when you average everyones vote.

What does this mean in the end for the film? That depends on your opinion I guess of whether a "7 or 8" gal is the right fit for Bruce Waynes love interest. I just thought to counter all this "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" business with some scientific facts. Beauty really isn't in the eye of the beholder, at least 95% of it isn't. That last 5% you can give to personality and individual preference, but on the whole all human beings unconsciously prefer the right proportions, symmetrical faces, golden ratios and a lot of other factors I won't go into here but you can check out the links.




See above.

I doubt a reasonable person would consider Maggie unattractive, but I also doubt your average person (statistically speaking) would rank her in the "most beautiful women" category of 9-10 range either.

this is from one of your links...

"We all recognise beauty when we see it, but what makes a beautiful face is something that few can agree on."

lets just leave it that.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

I agree with this statement. Without the makeup and expensive fashion she is perfectly average in her appearance. Whether average is appropriate for this film or not is debatable, and I don't have a stance one way or the other. I don't even think the character should exist so I couldn't care less who plays her and won't argue one way or another.

It's hyperbole to say she is straight up ugly; anyone who has said that hasn't been to their local supermarket lately, or lives in LA. It is also just flat out wrong to say beauty is completely subjective: there are plenty of factors, previously stated by other posters, in what society determines is beautiful.

Major point: it is pretty pointless to argue over the attractiveness of the actress playing Rachel when the character shouldn't exist in the first place t:.

A far better point than arguing about how good looking or not she is, I agree. We should really be focusing on whether her character is good for the films, rather than what defines beauty.

Well I can confidently say I don't have the time, patience, nor resources to go through that much trouble in explaining beauty. But yes, I wholeheartedly agree with the last few posts.

So thanks.

You're welcome

The same reason everybody postures on the internet, of course. One-up-manship is stronger nowhere else. The currency of forums is reputation.

And I thought the currency of forums was stimulating, intellectual conversation....

Well, absolutely. I can dance better than everybody.

Awesome. t:

 

[BatmanFanatic]

this is from one of your links...

"We all recognise beauty when we see it, but what makes a beautiful face is something that few can agree on."

lets just leave it that.

Exactly, as the quote says, we all recognize beauty when we see it. We may not know WHY or WHATmakes someone beautiful, but we understand if they are beautiful or not.

If someone isn't universally recognized as beautiful, that means they are not in that 9-10 "obviously beautiful" range, but perhaps in the "somewhat attractive" or "cute" or whatever else you want to call it range. If people are disagreeing over whether she is attractive, that shows she isn't Marilyn Monroe or Michelle Pfeiffer or Grace Kelly... these iconic women certainly did not face any criticism about their looks from anyone.

But more to the point however, is whether or not any of this actually matters. I have reasons for disliking the character that have nothing to do with looks, and on the flip side, I also think Maggie is an incredible actress whatever she looks like. So the real issues aren't much to do with appearance, unless you want to make the argument that it's all about whether Bruce Wayne would date any woman who didn't look like a Goddess ... being the billionaire prince of Gotham that he is. And I suppose given that they were childhood friends his character is going to see more in her than surface qualities. It's as good an explanation as any.

 

[Gianakin_]

Exactly, as the quote says, we all recognize beauty when we see it. We may not know WHY or WHATmakes someone beautiful, but we understand if they are beautiful or not.

If someone isn't universally recognized as beautiful, that means they are not in that 9-10 "obviously beautiful" range, but perhaps in the "somewhat attractive" or "cute" or whatever else you want to call it range. If people are disagreeing over whether she is attractive, that shows she isn't Marilyn Monroe or Michelle Pfeiffer or Grace Kelly... these iconic women certainly did not face any criticism about their looks from anyone.

How wrong you are...

 

[Saint]

And I thought the currency of forums was stimulating, intellectual conversation....

Fortunately, there is the occasional individual who believes intelligence posts will improve his or her reputation.

 

[Laderlappen]

You dont have to look like Naomi Campbell, Nicole Kidman, or Jessica Alba to be considered beautiful. You can be beautiful without looking like a super-model.
Is Maggie's looks what is considered 'beautiful'? Maybe Not. Is Maggie's looks what is considered 'ugly'? No. She has some bad pictures, but all and all she is not unattractive.
I dont think there is nothing wrong with calling her beautiful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder r what the fudge the saying is. And not all just look at super-models for beauty.

 

[Mandalore464]

Her attractiveness shouldn't really be an issue here. Bruce and Rachel grew up together, they have this very special relation. Rahel could be considered Bruce's one true love in the Nolan realm. I don't think Bruce really cares if at all about what Rachel looks like. He was presumably already in love with her as a child, and don't tell me your childhood crushes all became supermodels.

Plus, Bruce apparently hangs out with a few of them models, he knows his money can grant him a lot of superficial but beautiful girls who are just hanging out with him so he can "buy a few more hotels", and he's probably looking for other things in a relationship that would really matter to him.

Personally I am glad that for once real acting talent prevailed and they didn't just go for a beautiful trophy to hang to our superhero's arm as seems to be the case in other franchises.

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

Her attractiveness shouldn't really be an issue here. Bruce and Rachel grew up together, they have this very special relation. Rahel could be considered Bruce's one true love in the Nolan realm. I don't think Bruce really cares if at all about what Rachel looks like. He was presumably already in love with her as a child, and don't tell me your childhood crushes all became supermodels.

Plus, Bruce apparently hangs out with a few of them models, he knows his money can grant him a lot of superficial but beautiful girls who are just hanging out with him so he can "buy a few more hotels", and he's probably looking for other things in a relationship that would really matter to him.

Personally I am glad that for once real acting talent prevailed and they didn't just go for a beautiful trophy to hang to our superhero's arm as seems to be the case in other franchises.

Actually most superhero franchises have love interests that are not "beautiful trophies", most of the time they are just everyday beauties. Kirsten dunst, Jennifer Garner, Kate Bosworth, and Gwenyth Palthrow aren't what I would consider stunningly beautiful but they are beautiful in their own little ways. Of course you have the ocassional Famke Janssen but she is also a good actress so............

 

[Mandalore464]

Kirsten dunst, Jennifer Garner, Kate Bosworth, and Gwenyth Palthrow aren't what I would consider stunningly beautiful but they are beautiful in their own little ways. Of course you have the ocassional Famke Janssen but she is also a good actress so............

Well again, this is entirely a matter of tastes, since I myself consider Gwyneth Paltrow or Kirsten Dunst above Famke Janssen.

And you said it yourself all these actresses fit in the "everyday BEAUTIES" category, slightly above the average-looking female, so it's still part of that give-the-leading-man-a-girl-that-looks-good scheme I was mentioning, as I imagine that the casting director faced with two actresses whose abilities fit the role will most of times go for the one who looks better so as to appeal to a larger number of people and even if the other one is a slightly better actress.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

that shows she isn't Marilyn Monroe or Michelle Pfeiffer or Grace Kelly... these iconic women certainly did not face any criticism about their looks from anyone.

Gianakin is right. This is not true. Believe it or not, Grace Kelly was told that she was ugly as a young girl and that she would never make it as an actress. I forget who it was in her family that was so obviously clueless. Now, the other actresses you list dealt with their share of criticism from time to time, as well. Plus, I wouldn't call Pfeiffer iconic; not yet. I'd replace her with Elizabeth Taylor.

And Monroe was a bottle blond. Not denying her legendary status, but the words beauty and all natural are simultaneous to me; implants or hair dye takes one down a notch in my book. A true beauty shouldn't need to alter ANYTHING about herself.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I'd say there's more of a universal agreement on the attraction of facial features, as opposed to the examples you have noted. Some men may prefer curvy women, some may prefer petite....but more than likely their preferences in faces are more aligned.

I think if Maggie went out of her way to make herself look great all the time, there wouldn't even be this discussion.

Everytime a nice picture of her is released, you see guys saying, "Umm.. wow she actually looks hot in that one!" I've observed it on various forums Crook.

And then another person comes along with a different image of her looking less attractive with an odd expression or questionable attire and some of the same guys turn into naysayers.

 

[rohitiyer]

I can understand how Maggie might not be the most attractive woman in the world, but I just don't get this extreme stigma towards her looks. It borders on baseless hatred for a person who is far from "fugly".

I just saw "Stranger Than Fiction" yesterday and I actually thought she was very hot in it. Her performance really drove me to like her character and that matters more than cellulite faces, bosoms and butts.

I'm sure that most guys on this thread wouldn't be so hard on her if she wasn't a hollywood actress. She would definitely turn heads (in a nice way).

 

[Laderlappen]

The only difference between Michelle and the others is that she is from a later generation of hollywood and that beauty in Hollywood went downhill after the 60's. Michelle is definetly in the same league as the others. Personally I think she's the most beautiful of them all.

With Maggie's looks, it really doesnt matter. Her character is not supposed to be a hottie anyway.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

The ugliest thing about this conversation is the one-sided nature of it.
If Maggie was playing a role like the reporter in Iron Man, no one would give a crap about her looks. But since she's playing Batman's love interest, she has to be a "beauty" not just attractive.

Yet I would hardly call Christian Bale the billionaire playboy i imagined Bruce Wayne to be, but of course Bale is a good Batman and actor so no one cares.

If they'd cast a "beautiful" actress who added nothing to the role then fans would be saying how lame she was. The truth is that people don't like Rachael Dawes, or the lack of life Katie Holmes brought to the character and have basically written off the idea of her. No one her as even seen how Maggie will do. If she and Bale actually have chemistry on screen, I will love to come back to the boards. (especially if they bump off the character).

 

[Bat-Mite]

I can understand how Maggie might not be the most attractive woman in the world, but I just don't get this extreme stigma towards her looks. It borders on baseless hatred for a person who is far from "fugly".

I just saw "Stranger Than Fiction" yesterday and I actually thought she was very hot in it. Her performance really drove me to like her character and that matters more than cellulite faces, bosoms and butts.

I'm sure that most guys on this thread wouldn't be so hard on her if she wasn't a hollywood actress. She would definitely turn heads (in a nice way).

QFT. To me, these people that go on and on about how drop dead gorgeous Bruce's love interest needs to be are actually insulting the character. Bruce can have just about any beautiful woman he wants, but to me, beauty has always seemed to be a secondary concern for him at best. Selina, Talia, Andrea Beaumont... they were all beautiful yes, but more importantly, they were iron willed, intelligent, and ambitious. Rachel, while not in the same league as those women, definitely shares some of those traits, so it's not surprising that Bruce would be attracted to her, no matter how she looks. And I still say that Maggie isn't ugly by a long shot, and is indeed quite beautiful, but just in a unique way.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Maggie is amazingly beautiful case closed for me, bring on the debate haha.

 

[Crook]

Her attractiveness shouldn't really be an issue here. Bruce and Rachel grew up together, they have this very special relation. Rahel could be considered Bruce's one true love in the Nolan realm. I don't think Bruce really cares if at all about what Rachel looks like. He was presumably already in love with her as a child, and don't tell me your childhood crushes all became supermodels.

No, but ones that didn't grow out so good, I immediately lost interest in.

Gianakin is right. This is not true. Believe it or not, Grace Kelly was told that she was ugly as a young girl and that she would never make it as an actress. I forget who it was in her family that was so obviously clueless.

Young girl and an adult is a big difference, however. It is possible to be an ugly duckling who turns into a swan. That may have been the case with Kelly. I can't imagine anyone calling her ugly when she was a Hollywood starlet.

Now, the other actresses you list dealt with their share of criticism from time to time, as well.

Which actresses and what were the criticisms?

Plus, I wouldn't call Pfeiffer iconic; not yet. I'd replace her with Elizabeth Taylor.

See, that's just unarguably pure beauty right there. Subjectivity be damned, who the hell doesn't see how good Liz looks there?

And Monroe was a bottle blond. Not denying her legendary status, but the words beauty and all natural are simultaneous to me; implants or hair dye takes one down a notch in my book. A true beauty shouldn't need to alter ANYTHING about herself.

Hair dying is a completely different league, though. I mean...it's just a color. It doesn't alter your physical appearance in any way. Had Norma Jeane () maintained the brunette look, she wouldn't be any less gorgeous.

I think if Maggie went out of her way to make herself look great all the time, there wouldn't even be this discussion.

Everytime a nice picture of her is released, you see guys saying, "Umm.. wow she actually looks hot in that one!" I've observed it on various forums Crook.

And then another person comes along with a different image of her looking less attractive with an odd expression or questionable attire and some of the same guys turn into naysayers.

Well that's on them. I can't understand that position, because I look at an entire set of photos and videos to judge how I think the person is attractive. But that's just me.

The ugliest thing about this conversation is the one-sided nature of it.
If Maggie was playing a role like the reporter in Iron Man, no one would give a crap about her looks. But since she's playing Batman's love interest, she has to be a "beauty" not just attractive.

When you look at the various females in the bat franchise, that's quite a bar you have to live up to.

Yet I would hardly call Christian Bale the billionaire playboy i imagined Bruce Wayne to be, but of course Bale is a good Batman and actor so no one cares.

Oh, trust me, if Bale didn't LOOK the part of the billionaire playboy, there would have been a ruckus. But thankfully, he more than fills it. He tends to come off boring, but I can't deny he has the playboy appeal.

If they'd cast a "beautiful" actress who added nothing to the role then fans would be saying how lame she was.

That goes without saying. I don't think anyone here is suggesting a beautiful actress for the sake of their eyes. We'd want someone with talent to back up her looks as well.

 

[Gianakin_]

See, that's just unarguably pure beauty right there. Subjectivity be damned, who the hell doesn't see how good Liz looks there?

That's the thing though, would you define objectivity as the opinion of the majority or the opinion of every single soul on the planet? I need to know how you define objectivity, since I'm a very literal person and I don't want to play with words.
If you go by the 2nd definition, I'd bet everything I own that one soul would not find her attractive in that photo, thus shuttering the objectivity of her beauty.

PS: I find Liz fantastic in that photo, too.

 

[Crook]

The former. I realize not everything is 100% agreed on. But you can get very close.

I mean...I'm sure there's a couple of poor souls out there that don't like the feeling of an orgasm, but really, their opinion doesn't matter because we know they're just wrong.

 

[Gianakin_]

The former. I realize not everything is 100% agreed on. But you can get very close.

I mean...I'm sure there's a couple of poor souls out there that don't like the feeling of an orgasm, but really, their opinion doesn't matter because we know they're just wrong.

Fair enough, following that definition.

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

I think if Maggie went out of her way to make herself look great all the time, there wouldn't even be this discussion.

Everytime a nice picture of her is released, you see guys saying, "Umm.. wow she actually looks hot in that one!" I've observed it on various forums Crook.

And then another person comes along with a different image of her looking less attractive with an odd expression or questionable attire and some of the same guys turn into naysayers.

The best I've ever seen Maggie look is in "Sherry Baby." I still stand by my statement that on her best days she is cute. But she is nowhere near beautiful. If someone says she is hot, that's understandable, sexual attraction doesn't always require beauty. I don't understand how some people can say she is better looking than Katie though. Katie Holmes is not beautiful either, but she is a lot better looking.