The Dark Knight The Rachel Dawes thread

[Leenie]

Okay, here is a big question for everyone. I haven't read this entire thread so my apologies if it's been asked already.

Do you think that Rachel Dawes acted reprehensibly toward Bruce? I mean, did she mess with his feelings or play him for a sap because she didn't want him turning himself in? Or is she just a tease? Or can she not make up her mind? And what about that letter... that really got me -who tells someone who loves them something that important with a "dear John" letter? That seemed really cold to me.

So I wonder what you guys think about that, because I was a little put off by Rachel's manipulating and coldness towards Bruce in the film. And felt even worse for him because he never found out about any of it, and will end up very heartbroken for a woman who doesn't completely deserve it.

Thoughts?

My thoughts? I think she's a cold tease who can't make up her mind ... So I agree with all the above.

I felt more sorry for Bruce about Rachel's death.

 

[staffroyce]

The acting and ugly face of Maggie really bothered me. She had so chemistry with Eckhart and Bale. The hype on her didnt deliver because Katie was far better than her.

 

[Two-Face]

The acting and ugly face of Maggie really bothered me. She had so chemistry with Eckhart and Bale. The hype on her didnt deliver because Katie was far better than her.

That's not fair.....



And Maggie G is better actress.

 

[DACrowe]

I'll say Katie may have actually had more chemistry with Bale than Maggie did, otherwise Maggie was an improvement (if you get beyond looks).

She wasn't a tease, she really couldn't make up her mind. She has always loved Bruce, but it's been a year to a year and a half since he became Batman and she moved on with someone who swept her off her feet. Bruce keeps saying he'll be there for her, but keeps going back to the point that it looks almost pathological (and maybe it is) to being Batman. She couldn't wait forever and she really felt she had to be there for Harvey in his hour of need (being arrested) so she gave up on Bruce and chose Harvey.

I'd say she was indecisive in this movie, not a tease.

 

[Majik1387]

Okay, here is a big question for everyone. I haven't read this entire thread so my apologies if it's been asked already.

Do you think that Rachel Dawes acted reprehensibly toward Bruce? I mean, did she mess with his feelings or play him for a sap because she didn't want him turning himself in? Or is she just a tease? Or can she not make up her mind? And what about that letter... that really got me -who tells someone who loves them something that important with a "dear John" letter? That seemed really cold to me.

So I wonder what you guys think about that, because I was a little put off by Rachel's manipulating and coldness towards Bruce in the film. And felt even worse for him because he never found out about any of it, and will end up very heartbroken for a woman who doesn't completely deserve it.

Thoughts?

I didn't find Rachel manipulative or cold at all in the film.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Really, you weren't bothered by the letter? I thought the letter was harsh. Especially after "they wont let us be together!'

WTF was that about? I think she flat out lied to manipulate his feelings so he wouldn't destroy Batman.

As to the Katie vs Maggie question, neither had any chemistry with Bale so it's a loose loose situation. Katie looked better but Maggie acted better, still I didn't believe Bruce cared for either one of them. Maybe it's not the actress. Maybe Bale just can't pull off "in love!" =P I've yet to see him really turn up the heat with any co-star.

 

[Majik1387]

Really, you weren't bothered by the letter? I thought the letter was harsh. Especially after "they wont let us be together!'

WTF was that about? I think she flat out lied to manipulate his feelings so he wouldn't destroy Batman.

Well, I can't remember word for word what the letter said, but what I got from it was that she chose Harvey over Bruce. And with Bruce being Batman, I think Rachel felt that Batman is always gonna be needed, even with Harvey as DA. Everything she said in the letter is something that I think a majority of people would find hard to say face to face, so that's why she didn't. But I never saw him leading Bruce on romantically, I saw the opposite actually, and Bruce just never got the hint.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Well, I can't remember word for word what the letter said, but what I got from it was that she chose Harvey over Bruce. And with Bruce being Batman, I think Rachel felt that Batman is always gonna be needed, even with Harvey as DA. Everything she said in the letter is something that I think a majority of people would find hard to say face to face, so that's why she didn't. But I never saw him leading Bruce on romantically, I saw the opposite actually, and Bruce just never got the hint.

How is "But if you turn yourself in, they wont let us be together" NOT leading him on to believe that she wants to be with him? She completely lied right there because she wanted him to continue to save the city.

 

[Majik1387]

How is "But if you turn yourself in, they wont let us be together" NOT leading him on to believe that she wants to be with him? She completely lied right there because she wanted him to continue to save the city.

Like I said, I didn't remember the letter word for word.

To me that just sounds more like a 'even if I did choose you' sort of thing.

 

[Johnny Drama]

Like I said, I didn't remember the letter word for word.

To me that just sounds more like a 'even if I did choose you' sort of thing.

I got that vibe too, totaly

 

[The Batman]

Like I said, I didn't remember the letter word for word.

To me that just sounds more like a 'even if I did choose you' sort of thing.

IMO, its the point where she starts to realize that bruce isnt really intending on turning himself in, even though he may not realize it

 

[Heretic]

Maybe Bale just can't pull off "in love!" =P I've yet to see him really turn up the heat with any co-star.

He had plenty of romantic heat in American Psycho.

That was a love story, right???

 

[WarrenPeace2012]

Price of gasoline: $4 and up

Price for charges: $100

The look on Rachels face when she finds out no one's comming for her: PRICELESS!

 

[Johnny Drama]

LoL thats funny and wrong at the same time.

 

[Marx]

While Rachel isn't the greatest character created for Batman, Maggie Gyllenhaal made her relatable and likeable.

Had Katie Holmes played Rachel again, I'm convinced that there would have been cheers during her death scene.

 

[Johnny Drama]

If Katie had played Rachel again then Maybe Bruce would have saved her.

He probably got more erections from Harvey, hense the reason he was saved.

 

[Heretic]

I keep hearing this "maggie was more relatable and likable". What movie did you guys watch? Katie Holmes character was Bruces best friend. Maggie was this chick that basically barked out to everyone in earshot about how strong and capable and in control she was. Almost every scene she is in she is forcing herself on the others in the room...not at all a trait people enjoy being around.

"I know these briefs like the back of my hand" Thats great, but if you were that freaking good then maybe youd be DA, instead of getting looked over for a dude from Internal Affairs.

"He's a friend actually, try to be nice" If my girlfriend talked to me that way Id be single by lunchtime.

Her entire presence at the Dent fundraiser was bullheaded. From her complaining about Bruces speech, to getting in The Jokers face. Look toots, he's The Joker, and youre out of your league...shut up and try to survive the night.

Lets not even get into leading Bruce on...and then deciding to leave a note about marrying Dent.

The character was not only very hard to like or relate to as a person...she wasnt even the Rachel Dawes we got to know in the first film. The words may have been the same character, but the delivery of those words was not in keeping with the spirit of the character.

 

[Marx]

To me, Maggie did the character more justice than Katie. It's all a matter of opinion Heretic.

 

[Heretic]

To me, Maggie did the character more justice than Katie. It's all a matter of opinion Heretic.

The problem with that line of thinking is that the character had already been established, and maggies portrayal was essentially throwing away what was established and creating a new character. That is not what I consider to be doing a character justice at all.

 

[Marx]

The problem with that line of thinking is that the character had already been established, and maggies portrayal was essentially throwing away what was established and creating a new character. That is not what I consider to be doing a character justice at all.

Maggie has said many times in interviews that she was going to put her own take on it. She was not going to come in and be a place holder. Nolan was said to have approved of this.

 

[Heretic]

Maggie has said many times in interviews that she was going to put her own take on it. She was not going to come in and be a place holder. Nolan was said to have approved of this.

If a writer decides that batman should no longer grieve over his parents death, and Dc Comics agrees with the new happy go lucky Batman who makes one liners as hes flying through the air on his new Bat Rocket Shoes, I will be the first to say that DC is wrong to alter the character.

So, Maggie took an established character, tossed aside all connection with the first movie, and invented a brand new character who acted quite differently...and if Nolan was okay that decision then I can honestly say that I feel that Nolan was wrong. Like it or not, Katie Holmes created the character of rachel dawes, and to simply disregard what she laid down as the blueprint for the character is not a good decision.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I keep hearing this "maggie was more relatable and likable". What movie did you guys watch? Katie Holmes character was Bruces best friend. Maggie was this chick that basically barked out to everyone in earshot about how strong and capable and in control she was. Almost every scene she is in she is forcing herself on the others in the room...not at all a trait people enjoy being around.

LOL...What? I'd say Playboy Bruce did that...The Joker did that...But Rachel?

"I know these briefs like the back of my hand" Thats great, but if you were that freaking good then maybe youd be DA, instead of getting looked over for a dude from Internal Affairs.

She actually says "Harvey, I know this case backwards." Unless you were thinking up some fantasy about Rachel touching (your?) briefs. She's saying she's competent. I don't see the problem.

"He's a friend actually, try to be nice" If my girlfriend talked to me that way Id be single by lunchtime.

If you actually felt offended by that harmless line or something, any smart girl would dump you in a minute, yes.

Her entire presence at the Dent fundraiser was bullheaded. From her complaining about Bruces speech, to getting in The Jokers face. Look toots, he's The Joker, and youre out of your league...shut up and try to survive the night.

Of course she's out of his league. That much is obvious. But she was the only one who took a stand against him. Every one else was cowering in fear, especially the guy who was about to get the "scars" treatment. You could go as far as to say that she saved the guy, plus bought some time for Batman to show up (the latter being intentional or not is up to debate.)

Lets not even get into leading Bruce on...and then deciding to leave a note about marrying Dent.

After realizing that Bruce would never quit his Batman mission.

The character was not only very hard to like or relate to as a person...she wasnt even the Rachel Dawes we got to know in the first film. The words may have been the same character, but the delivery of those words was not in keeping with the spirit of the character.

I actually thought she was very Katie Holmes-ish in some scenes.

The problem with that line of thinking is that the character had already been established, and maggies portrayal was essentially throwing away what was established and creating a new character. That is not what I consider to be doing a character justice at all.

The problem with that line of thinking is that the character had already been established, and maggies portrayal was essentially throwing away what was established and creating a new character. That is not what I consider to be doing a character justice at all.

What was so different about Maggie and Katie? I'm just curious.

 

[Heretic]

Regarding the "Jim Gordon, he's a friend. Try to be nice" line. It wasn't the line that bothered me, but the delivery. In context with the way she speaks throughout the rest of the movie, I would dump a girl long before she had a chance to dump me.

Regarding her standing up to The Joker, I'm not surprised that she did, she spent the entire movie standing up to everyone, even when they werent being combative at all. I cant see how you can watch the movie and not see that she takes on most of her conversations with an "Im in charge of this" attitude.

Regarding her knowing the case...I actually believe she says "briefs", as in court briefs...thats really just which one of us heard the wrong word, and not worth debating.

I've already laid this out...but Maggies Rachel takes virtually every scene she is in and attempts to argue with those around her, or in some way manipulate them, including when her best friend gave a public speech praising her boyfriend.

But my complaint isn't that she does it, it's that that isnt how the character was established.

I will say that there are a few points in begins where it can be argued that Katies rachel acted like maggies. That being when she slapped Bruce, when she stood up to the bad guys at the end, and when she told Bruce off about it being what he does that defines him. She wants to help save Gotham, but her actions (and Katies portrayal) show a girl that is pretty sure that she isnt capable of doing it. Katie may very well be a horrible actress, but it fits the character because the character is unsure of herself when she says what she thinks should be said.

So...Rachel...as established prior to the start of The Dark Knight:

She dates every boss she has in the films. Why? Because she subconsciously needs that power. She wants to be that strong, but isnt.

Has an inferiority complex. She is well established as being a talented member of the department, yet when the DA position comes available, and she seems to be the person to inheret the job, she doesnt even try to get it. She simply endorses another person. She knows that she isnt talented enough or strong willed enough to handle the job. Thats what people do when they subconsciously feel that they arent good enough for a promotion.

Acts tough, but isnt. She slaps Bruce in the car, she stands up to the crooks at the end of Begins. However, in both cases, we all felt that the character was just going through the motions...and in fact, she is. She knows she isnt that strong. We get that in the portrayal, yet many here dismiss that as bad acting (when in fact it is showing levels of a character without even speaking).

She has very conflicted feelings for Bruce, and cant quite sort them out.

Overall, up until the moment TDK starts, the character is basically a little girl playing a grown ups game, and is well aware that is out of her league. This is even evident in Maggies campaign virals.

Now...lets start TDK:

Maggie mouths off about how well she knows the case. Well, she should know the case...shes still an ASSISTANT who does a lot of the drudge work. Whats with the attitude? If you were good enough to be DA, then you would be.

Maggie mouths off about how to treat Gordon. What was with that delivery? Gordon isnt a friend...he's one of the few allies you have on earth. Instead of the delivery conveying that, it instead talks down to harvey like a child.

She talked tough to Lau, but went to Harvey for backup. This is actually what katie would have done, except the delivery of the lines is not in keeping with the character. For all that tough talk, she didnt think of RICO (and I did and know virtually nothing about law).

When eating dinner with harvey and Bruce...she did what katie would have done...she kept her mouth shut and let the two talented people talk. This was due to the script, and Maggie had little effect over the scene. She ven became subservient to the prima ballerina, for what reasons? Its obvious why Katies character would...but its completely out of character for Maggies...this scene flies in the face of Maggies portrayal.

She argues with Bruce over the fact that he praised harvey. Um, he praised your boyfriend and raised millions of dollars for his next campaign. Shut up!

Her answer for Harvey is "no answer". This comes off as manipulation...as does her later manipulation of Bruce. She was angry when he says hes going to turn himself in, then shes angry when he doesnt. She goes to harvey and starts complaining to him about his decision. There is a good long stretch in the movie where she does nothing but complain about not having her way, even contradicting herself in the process. This is mostly due to her delievery.

Even during the scene where her and Harvey are trapped...she takes control and starts telling Harvey what to do. Um...hows that work out for her?

In most cases I dont think that Rachel is written too terribly different from how Katie established the character, but the delivery of the lines completely altered the character. Katies rachel has unspoken depth, whereas Maggies Rachel has no depth, because all of her lines and actions are delivered in a very one dimensional way. Katie Holmes is not a good actress, but I feel that given the exact same script, she would have given the character the nuassance of being unsure of herself, where maggies rachel is completely sure of herself, even when she changes her opinion on a dime.

 

[jackjack924]

She talked tough to Lau, but went to Harvey for backup. This is actually what katie would have done, except the delivery of the lines is not in keeping with the character. For all that tough talk, she didnt think of RICO (and I did and know virtually nothing about law).

In defense of this, I'm pretty sure Harvey called her out of the interrogation room when he figured out that RICO would work. I think they show him pushing a button and I assume that sends a signal to Rachel to go talk to Harvey and Gordon.

 

[Heretic]

In defense of this, I'm pretty sure Harvey called her out of the interrogation room when he figured out that RICO would work. I think they show him pushing a button and I assume that sends a signal to Rachel to go talk to Harvey and Gordon.

My take on that was that the conversation was being recorded, and he was flagging a spot for later use...but having never been in a situation lie that, Im not sure. Either there is a button for calling the other person back, or they record us...Im not sure which one of our guesses was correct.

But still...even if he did call her back...it was because harvey thought of RICO and knew that Rachel wouldnt...because shes IN OVER HER HEAD. Your opinion supports the fact that Maggie potrayed the character incorrectly. If everyone in the movie is aware that she isnt ready...why is she so sure of herself all of a sudden? Katies Rachel wasnt...