The Dark Knight The Rachel Dawes thread

[Mr. Joker]

Who cares? God gave us all a gift by working his magic so she didn't come back. I'm hella grateful.

 

[Trainwreck2100]

I could have lived with Holmes in this one, only because at some point she would have been blown sky high.

 

[DACrowe]

Maybe the hate is a good reason for the recast, I guess.

 

[Raiden]

I'm positive it was Cruise's fault.

I'm sure of it also. I mean, who advised her to make Mad Money instead of TDK?

 

[BobJM]

I didn't mind Katie Holmes nearly as much as I did Maggie in TDK, especially now that Holmes is a bit older and is looking a little hotter than she did in BB.

Sure, she's not the best actress, but I feel that she had more chemistry with Bale than Maggie did.

 

[The Joker]

Loved Maggie. She was a vast improvement. The Rachel Dawes character was not essential to the story, but Maggie played her well.

 

[DoesItDepressU]

Loved Maggie. She was a vast improvement. The Rachel Dawes character was not essential to the story, but Maggie played her well.

I think she was an integral part to the plot especially as a contributing force to Harvey's turn to the dark side. She was much better utilized in TDK than she was in BB.

 

[Crook]

Someone else could have easily replaced Rachel as Dent's love-interest. Their relationship didn't start until this film, keep in mind.

 

[DoesItDepressU]

Someone else could have easily replaced Rachel as Dent's love-interest. Their relationship didn't start until this film, keep in mind.

True. But isn't Rachel the path of least resistance and provides a basis for Wayne to lose all hope of a normal life with his childhood sweetheart?

Don't be such a contrarian. You only look dumb.

 

[Mr. Joker]

Someone else could have easily replaced Rachel as Dent's love-interest. Their relationship didn't start until this film, keep in mind.

But she still provided the reason why Dent lost it, so I thought she was perfect for that.

 

[The Joker]

But she still provided the reason why Dent lost it, so I thought she was perfect for that.

He's saying that Rachel Dawes didn't have to be the character to do that. They could have used Gilda Dent, for example.

Rachel was an important element in the story. But Rachel wasn't the only character who could have done what she was used for.

 

[Mr. Joker]

I understand, was just sayin'.

 

[DACrowe]

He's saying that Rachel Dawes didn't have to be the character to do that. They could have used Gilda Dent, for example.

Rachel was an important element in the story. But Rachel wasn't the only character who could have done what she was used for.

This is true, Doc Joker .

However, by making her less of just a catalyst/foil for Dent but also extremely important to Batman increased the tragedy, drama and tension of the story. Rachel, as in BB, still represented Bruce's hope to live a normal life (if his parents had lived Nolan's Wayne probably would've ended up marrying Rachel Dawes). He sees her as his hope for the future. By having the Joker literally take that away from Bruce was just as devestating for him as it was for Harvey. With her death, so dies Bruce's hope for a normal life and by the end of the movie the realization that Gotham will always need Batman is dawning on him.

On top of that, it also gave something more for Alfred to do. He discovers she had already realized what Bruce is doing, even if subconsciously (she is a voice for the writer to describe what is really going on in Bruce. In this case his pathological need to be Batman, even if he cannot admit it). And after her death he withholds that letter from his master, because he knows it would break Wayne's heart even more. So like every other character, Alfred has to break his moral code and what he thinks is ethically right "just this once" to accomdate the destruction the Joker is making.

Speaking of the Joker, the fact that he lied to Batman and switched the addresses, because Batman would have saved Dent over Gilda if that was his decision. But he was in love with Rachel so he goes after her, just making the Joker that much more evil and manipulative. Plus, it is nice for once to see in these movies the girl return and just not be written out essientially as another notch post (even if Bruce didn't get Rachel in BB).

And while I agree with you Maggie is a huge improvement over Katie acting-wise, for that last reason and to bridge the continuity of Bruce's love for Rachel I do wish that Holmes had played the part in this movie or Maggie had played this part in Begins. Splitting it up was unfortunate.

Either way even if her character wasn't necessary, her presence enhanced the film and made it a better movie.

 

[Mr. Joker]

Long post...can't read...can't read....GAAAAAHHHHH!

 

[Lauryn2000]

I could have lived with Holmes in this one, only because at some point she would have been blown sky high.

Agree....three years later Katie Homes-Cruise looks alot more mature than she did in Batman Begins,she's losing the "Dawson Creek" look a little each year.
Maggie was decent....but Katie would have been more to Batman's liking...kinda makes you wonder IF they ever bring in Catwoman,which actress would they get to play the role

 

[GhostPoet]

this will sound bad...but i'm glad the character is dead. I didn't like the actress in the first movie...and in the 2nd movie the actress they chose was ugly...

The character isn't needed anymore.

 

[mikey09]

this will sound bad...but i'm glad the character is dead. I didn't like the actress in the first movie...and in the 2nd movie the actress they chose was ugly...

The character isn't needed anymore.

That makes sense. Kill someone because they are ugly.

 

[The_Raganork]

this will sound bad...but i'm glad the character is dead. I didn't like the actress in the first movie...and in the 2nd movie the actress they chose was ugly...

The character isn't needed anymore.

Wow..that was as deep as a birdbath...I'm glad you're no where near the creation of these films

 

[believe_batman]

I felt that Rachel Dawes was the weakest character in the Dark Knight... the movie never gave any time to exploring what led her to forget a possible future with Bruce and start (apparently) sleeping with Harvey Dent: just left it out there for us to guess. Which made her character look like a total jerk... and then she gets ticked at Bruce for letting Harvey claim to be Batman and goes off in a huff... while I think the Rachel Dawes-character in Begins would see the good in what Harvey was doing and understand why Bruce couldn't give in to a terrorist.

I think if they would have made the Dawes-Dent relationship less intense... dating, not sleeping around... and shown Rachel as more conflicted about her feelings for Bruce, and offering him encouragement like Alfred did, the movie would have been better. I don't think Holmes was a great actress, but neither is Gyllenhaal (Gyllenhaal is quite unattractive in the movie, as well, imho).

 

[GhostPoet]

Sorry, but I just couldn't stand to look at her. :P She looks "old" I think it's the eyes and mouth area. And I always thought the character was bland anyway.

 

[Quinzel]

I enjoyed Maggies acting.

In beigins i didn't like Katie. I was very AWARE that she was just an actress.lol.

 

[coleyhinson]

Maggie was spunky... you really think Holmes would have kicked the Joker... nope

 

[mikey09]

Sorry, but I just couldn't stand to look at her. :P She looks "old" I think it's the eyes and mouth area. And I always thought the character was bland anyway.

So because you couldn't look at her you wanted her dead in the film?

She was an integral part to the downfall of Harvey and Batman's hatred for the Joker. That's why she had to die, not because she is ugly.

Comments like yours is why you have Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton in movies.

 

[believe_batman]

Maggie was spunky... you really think Holmes would have kicked the Joker... nope

Even if you believe this, it shouldn't be acceptable to change the character just because you had to get a new actress. Dawes acts dramatically differently in TDK than BB, imho.

 

[DACrowe]

I felt that Rachel Dawes was the weakest character in the Dark Knight... the movie never gave any time to exploring what led her to forget a possible future with Bruce and start (apparently) sleeping with Harvey Dent: just left it out there for us to guess. Which made her character look like a total jerk... and then she gets ticked at Bruce for letting Harvey claim to be Batman and goes off in a huff... while I think the Rachel Dawes-character in Begins would see the good in what Harvey was doing and understand why Bruce couldn't give in to a terrorist.

I think if they would have made the Dawes-Dent relationship less intense... dating, not sleeping around... and shown Rachel as more conflicted about her feelings for Bruce, and offering him encouragement like Alfred did, the movie would have been better. I don't think Holmes was a great actress, but neither is Gyllenhaal (Gyllenhaal is quite unattractive in the movie, as well, imho).

She never said she'd wait for Bruce in BB. They weren't dating, she moved on. She was conflicted enough to consider his proposal, but then seeing him let Dent take the fall, she realized Bruce needed to be Batman. There is a subtext there about Batman becoming the dominant persona and Bruce really is becoming nothing more than a mask and Rachel realized this and knew it was officially over. It doesn't make her a jerk. Why wait for someone who will NEVER be ready for a relationship?

As for making it more casual between Dent and Rachel, I disagree. That would not make it a good catalyst for Dent's anger if the girl he dated like twice gets killed as opposed to someone who became his fiance just seconds before.