The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 10

[The Infernal]

I feel like Fox and Sony must send their execs to the same clown college to train or they continuously swap their Rothmans between each other. Though I think Sony have the edge in dunce moves since their machinations are closer to reality than Fox's are at the moment. It's like Pascal is intent on playing chicken with Feige and Marvel with these Sony Spidey-verse movies.

 

[Spiderine]

Sony wins this battle. FOX has a lot more characters to either mess up or get right. They have multiple cinematic Marvel properties. This is no contest. Sony has one guy and a bunch of supporting characters and villains that rely heavily on Spiderman.

Let me know when FOX announces a Multiple Man solo movie.

 

[Xeno]

Marvel Studios and Disney were in no position to make live-action X-Men TV shows. That's why they made a deal there.

What you said doesn't make any sense. Marvel Entertainment has created several great TV shows on Netflix over the past three years. There is no reason why that division could not have done the same with the vast catalog of unused or under-utilized characters in the X-Men family. Those characters are more popular that the Defenders and would have probably attracted more viewers. There is also no reason why Marvel Entertainment couldn't have held off on doing X-related shows until later if they didn't feel ready now. Marvel had no reason to rush shows into production when they could keep rolling them out for decades if they wanted to. Marvel didn't need Fox for anything. It was the other way around.

 

[Zarex]

The FOX shows thus far have extremely minimal ties to X-Men proper.
Marvel could have sold shows about schizophrenic Inhumans or Inhumans on the run to Amazon, Hulu, USA, or Showtime and not handed FOX a dime. The deal as it has been presented doesn't make a lick of sense. I have no idea why they included FOX in on the action.

 

[wobbly]

Marvel Studios and Disney were in no position to make live-action X-Men TV shows. That's why they made a deal there.

Fox were in no position to make live-action X-Men TV shows. That's why they wanted a deal there.

Marvel didn't need to deal at all.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

As said, this is a rumor from BleedingCool, so I won't take it too seriously. For now anyways. Until something more official is released, the waiting game continues. Though if FOX tries this Spy Kids baloney with the FF, it would be a dumb mistake. Let me remind you, Fant4stic bombed hard in theaters. Does FOX want to do that again?

 

[TheVileOne]

What you said doesn't make any sense. Marvel Entertainment has created several great TV shows on Netflix over the past three years. There is no reason why that division could not have done the same with the vast catalog of unused or under-utilized characters in the X-Men family. Those characters are more popular that the Defenders and would have probably attracted more viewers. There is also no reason why Marvel Entertainment couldn't have held off on doing X-related shows until later if they didn't feel ready now. Marvel had no reason to rush shows into production when they could keep rolling them out for decades if they wanted to. Marvel didn't need Fox for anything. It was the other way around.

There are a lot of reasons. There are legal reasons. Marvel made an X-Men themed TV series that had nothing to do with Fox before called Mutant X, and 20th Century Fox sued Marvel for copyright violation.

You are 100 percent wrong. Fox's ties to the X-Men film franchise prevented Marvel from producing live-action X-Men TV shows.

Also, the other Marvel TV shows were part of the MCU. They couldn't exactly make an X-Men TV series set in the MCU without causing problems.

If there is no reason they couldn't have done this, why didn't they?

 

[TheVileOne]

Fox were in no position to make live-action X-Men TV shows. That's why they wanted a deal there.

Marvel didn't need to deal at all.

Marvel is probably making money off of the deal. Of course Fox wanted to expand its X-Men franchise into TV. But they couldn't do it without Marvel's approval, and also, Marvel couldn't do anything live-action X-Men without potentially causing legal problems with Fox.

See Mutant X. A non-20th Century Fox X-Men TV series that got Marvel sued by Fox.

There's well documented evidence of this. There's legal evidence. So that means Marvel couldn't make their own live-action X-Men TV shows without Fox making some sort of legal stink.

 

[Spiderine]

Don't know why a 13 year old show has so much relevance to the present. Marvel is currently working on a host of shows involving properties they have 100 percent ownership to as well as exclusive deals in place with Netflix and other platforms. Very successful shows in this current thriving market. You act as if Marvel came crawling to FOX to do these shows.

 

[Jason Kane]

As said, this is a rumor from BleedingCool, so I won't take it too seriously. For now anyways. Until something more official is released, the waiting game continues. Though if FOX tries this Spy Kids baloney with the FF, it would be a dumb mistake. Let me remind you, Fant4stic bombed hard in theaters. Does FOX want to do that again?

Apparent Constantin Films does. It'll take a miracle for that company to die a well earned death

 

[YoungBlood]

Marvel is probably making money off of the deal. Of course Fox wanted to expand its X-Men franchise into TV. But they couldn't do it without Marvel's approval, and also, Marvel couldn't do anything live-action X-Men without potentially causing legal problems with Fox.

See Mutant X. A non-20th Century Fox X-Men TV series that got Marvel sued by Fox.

There's well documented evidence of this. There's legal evidence. So that means Marvel couldn't make their own live-action X-Men TV shows without Fox making some sort of legal stink.

You're wasting your time trying to argue with these people.
It's not worth it.

 

[Zarex]

There are a lot of reasons. There are legal reasons. Marvel made an X-Men themed TV series that had nothing to do with Fox before called Mutant X, and 20th Century Fox sued Marvel for copyright violation.

You are 100 percent wrong. Fox's ties to the X-Men film franchise prevented Marvel from producing live-action X-Men TV shows.

Also, the other Marvel TV shows were part of the MCU. They couldn't exactly make an X-Men TV series set in the MCU without causing problems.

If there is no reason they couldn't have done this, why didn't they?

We've gone over all this ad nauseam, but what has yet to be explained is why Disney/Marvel decided to get into the X-Men business after 6 years of disinvestment. Since the Mouse bought Marvel they have shown no interest in merchandise, video games, animation, etcetera involving characters not under their full control (Spidey excluded). There is a thread on CBR that is hundreds of pages long, "The Complex", that details every slight against the mutants over the years.

Your point appears to be that Disney/Marvel really wanted to make an X-Men TV show, but FOX was the ones pushing the deal that took over a year to negotiate. For some reason Disney/Marvel decide to cut FOX in on the action, and we haven't gotten a solid reason why.

 

[Snaaaaake!]

We've gone over all this ad nauseam, but what has yet to be explained is why Disney/Marvel decided to get into the X-Men business after 6 years of disinvestment. Since the Mouse bought Marvel they have shown no interest in merchandise, video games, animation, etcetera involving characters not under their full control (Spidey excluded). There is a thread on CBR that is hundreds of pages long, "The Complex", that details every slight against the mutants over the years.

Your point appears to be that Disney/Marvel really wanted to make an X-Men TV show, but FOX was the ones pushing the deal that took over a year to negotiate. For some reason Disney/Marvel decide to cut FOX in on the action, and we haven't gotten a solid reason why.

When you break it down like that perhaps there's still hope that this is just a rumor and that Fox will simply let F4 run out after it's 7 year deadline.


But if Fox is still trying to playing Keepaway with certain movie rights. Marvel Studios should counter their kiddy crap with a GOTG spinoff titled Nova, starring Samuel Alexander and featuring Rocket and Teenage Groot. And have it released 2 weeks before any F4 project Fox decides to release.

Sure I'd prefer a Nove Corp film starring Richard Rider but risk in this case is more than worth the reward.

You're wasting your time trying to argue with these people.
It's not worth it.

Agreed.... So how do I block or ignore you for future reference?

 

[wobbly]

Marvel is probably making money off of the deal. Of course Fox wanted to expand its X-Men franchise into TV. But they couldn't do it without Marvel's approval, and also, Marvel couldn't do anything live-action X-Men without potentially causing legal problems with Fox.

See Mutant X. A non-20th Century Fox X-Men TV series that got Marvel sued by Fox.

There's well documented evidence of this. There's legal evidence. So that means Marvel couldn't make their own live-action X-Men TV shows without Fox making some sort of legal stink.

I know all about the Mutant X mess and it's lawsuit. Its from that we learned Marvel still reserved live action TV rights in the first place, and that they couldn't do anything with them without Fox.

That is not point I was making. My point is this deal wasn't one Marvel wanted or sought out as they have proven they don't need it.

Fox did. That in itself should have placed Marvel in the driving seat for the negotiations. Fox doesn't offer want Marvel wants? Marvel say no. They can live quite happily without the cut they get from the shows.

Now we don't know if there was more on the table than just a cut of the action, but given Disney is notoriously protective of its IP's (first hand experience here on that as well I might add) it seems uncharacteristic for them to have agreed to giving Fox an expanded control over one of Marvels biggest, without getting something significant back in return.

This doesn't automatically mean the FF as there's other things already noted could have sealed the deal, but if Disney did just settle for a credit and cash then I'd be surprised to say the least.

 

[TheVileOne]

Don't know why a 13 year old show has so much relevance to the present. Marvel is currently working on a host of shows involving properties they have 100 percent ownership to as well as exclusive deals in place with Netflix and other platforms. Very successful shows in this current thriving market. You act as if Marvel came crawling to FOX to do these shows.

Then why in all that time did Marvel never attempt another mutant or X-Men-themed TV series in live action form? Especially when they got their live-action TV wing moving?

 

[Endeavor]

Then why in all that time did Marvel never attempt another mutant or X-Men-themed TV series in live action form? Especially when they got their live-action TV wing moving?

That is the point Vile.
Why now?
At a time when Marvel has the most things going for it that it ever has, why make a deal with FOX now?
It's not for financial security and it's not to establish a Marvel presence on TV. Because both of those points were well covered before this recent FOX tv deal was done.

 

[TheVileOne]

That is the point Vile.
Why now?
At a time when Marvel has the most things going for it that it ever has, why make a deal with FOX now?
It's not for financial security and it's not to establish a Marvel presence on TV. Because both of those points were well covered before this recent FOX tv deal was done.

Why not now? What premise are you trying to prove here?

Why now? For starters, TV content is really blowing up right now. All sorts of weird places are producing high-end content. Hulu is making original series with top talent now. Amazon is doing it. Netflix is doing it. All the top creators and talents are working on TV now. That wasn't always the case over a decade ago.

Just for example, DC Entertainment claims the CW TV shows bring in over $1 billion in revenue a year. I don't know if that's true, but that's the figure that got thrown out. So, Marvel wasn't really in a good position to produce live-action X-Men TV. Fox wanted to make them to get a piece of that pie. Marvel gets a piece of that pie as well since they are co-producing the projects...so why not now?

Why does it have to be financial security? It's not about financial security, but if it gets more money on the table, why not? It's Occam's Razor.

You have the floor endeavor.

I'm sorry guys, but Christmas isn't coming at Comic-Con. This deal wasn't a sign of Fantastic Four rights changing hands. There's ample proof of that in the last year.

I'm not saying to abandon all hope for Fantastic Four, it's just not the case right now.

 

[TheVileOne]

I know all about the Mutant X mess and it's lawsuit. Its from that we learned Marvel still reserved live action TV rights in the first place, and that they couldn't do anything with them without Fox.

That is not point I was making. My point is this deal wasn't one Marvel wanted or sought out as they have proven they don't need it.

Fox did. That in itself should have placed Marvel in the driving seat for the negotiations. Fox doesn't offer want Marvel wants? Marvel say no. They can live quite happily without the cut they get from the shows.

Now we don't know if there was more on the table than just a cut of the action, but given Disney is notoriously protective of its IP's (first hand experience here on that as well I might add) it seems uncharacteristic for them to have agreed to giving Fox an expanded control over one of Marvels biggest, without getting something significant back in return.

This doesn't automatically mean the FF as there's other things already noted could have sealed the deal, but if Disney did just settle for a credit and cash then I'd be surprised to say the least.

So what is it exactly you are trying to say? If you are so sure, what did Marvel really get out of the deal if this is the scenario you are going with?

 

[Endeavor]

Why not now? What premise are you trying to prove here?
...

You misunderstood, I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm genuinely curious to know why this was done, since just because they can seems insufficient to me.
Also, I was pointing out that that point is what some of the other posters were saying, which I thought you had missed.

Edit: I already accepted it wasn't for anything related to FF, that wasn't the reason for the question.

 

[TheVileOne]

You misunderstood, I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm genuinely curious to know why this was done, since just because they can seems insufficient to me.
Also, I was pointing out that that point is what some of the other posters were saying, which I thought you had missed.

Edit: I already accepted it wasn't for anything related to FF, that wasn't the reason for the question.

I think why now is because high-end TV series are becoming more and more in demand as of late, almost more than major tentpoles. And Fox probably wanted to get in on the action with the X-Men, which Marvel couldn't really service on TV anyway as things currently stood. That's just me spitballing.

So the X-Men franchise on TV was in a bit of a stalemate ever since Mutant X. This deal seemed to somewhat resolve it.

 

[wobbly]

So what is it exactly you are trying to say? If you are so sure, what did Marvel really get out of the deal if this is the scenario you are going with?

For one, I'm not sure. Might they have settled for what we do know atm (basically a cut of the action). Not impossible but that seems unlikely to me given Disney's tough stance over their IP's and that they are hardly in need of the money.

What might they have got? I don't know. None of us do so we can only speculate. Things Marvel could have got range from Star Wars ANH distribution, a reversion of other character rights held by Fox, amendments to the t&c's in the existing contracts....It's anyone's guess really, and could be something none of us have thought of, or it might be nothing at all.

Bottom line is Marvel were in a position to get more than just a cut of the money from those shows. Going into those negotiations they did have the leverage to get more. If they did settle for just a stake, like I said before I'd be surprised.

 

[Zarex]

I think why now is because high-end TV series are becoming more and more in demand as of late, almost more than major tentpoles. And Fox probably wanted to get in on the action with the X-Men, which Marvel couldn't really service on TV anyway as things currently stood. That's just me spitballing.

So the X-Men franchise on TV was in a bit of a stalemate ever since Mutant X. This deal seemed to somewhat resolve it.

We all understand why FOX would want to expand their X-Men franchise to television in the era of peak superhero. What we don't understand is why after 6 plus years of disinvestment in the X-Men franchise, Disney/Marvel agreed to crack open the wildly lopsided 1993 licensing agreement and sign off on granting FOX additional rights to a Disney owned franchise.

Again, your premise is based on the idea that Marvel has been chomping at the bit to make bank on the X-Men character family since the Mouse cut a deal with Ike. But when you look at their relatively mutant free animated programs on Disney XD, the new Marvel vs. Capcom and Lego games that are stripped of all of Xavier's students, or try to pick up some sweet X Men: Apocalypse tie in merchandise and that argument falls apart.

Disney/Marvel may be getting a significant chunk of the revenues generated from "Legion" and "The Gifted". That's great! But they are also giving up their exclusive right to produce Marvel television programs and increasing the competition at a time when there are not enough eyeballs to watch all the new programs being produced. That's not so great! So what happened?

Maybe the TV licensing agreement was wrapped into some other FOX-Disney negotiation (Star Wars, Hulu, Modern Family). Maybe it was simply a bad deal. But for many of us the deal, as presented, doesn't make much sense.

 

[Zarex]

Speaking of which...The cover of Marvel Legacy #1! Find an X-Men or FF character and you win a No-Prize!

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

There are a lot of superhero shows on TV these days, and it would certainly seem in Disney's interest to keep shows off the air if they'll pull viewers away from Agents of Shield, Inhumans, Daredevil, Defenders etc.

Obviously they can't do anything about Flash, Supergirl, Gotham etc. but keeping Legion from stealing viewers would have been as simple as saying "no".

And what is so unique about Legion? He wasn't known by 95% of the audience before the show and it's not connected to anything else. I think what made it work was it had a quality team behind it. Marvel could have easily hired a quality team, given them the pick of the 10's of thousands of characters they own and let them work their magic without ever giving Fox a cut.

It seems obvious at this point that Fox still has the FF rights, but I agree with the broad concept that something of value was exchanged behind-the-scenes and it's not simply a matter of Disney taking their small cut of the Legion/Gifted profits.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Speaking of which...The cover of Marvel Legacy #1! Find an X-Men or FF character and you win a No-Prize!

I have so many No-Prizes stuffed in my attic I couldn't fit another one.

Did you see on the site-that-shall-not-be-named there is new fuel to the FF returning to the comics fire?

So far everything has been very vague, but I think Marvel has been hinting in bits and pieces for the past 6 months that the FF will be returning in some form at some time.