The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - Part 12

[Kev4000]

The X-Franchise is besides Deadpool totally dead in my opinion.
We have enough characters in the MCU already, use and develope them.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

I'd rather have an event film merge universes. The X-Men, X-Force, Fantastic Four, Defenders, Guardians and Avengers team up for the biggest two-part event film of all time in either Secret Wars or House of M. All new seasons of TV shows are canceled. Sony are advised to only do a tie-in Spider-Verse film for that year (with Andrew Garfield and Toby Maguire).

After that, Marvel and Fox can easily share characters.

I could NEVER in a million years see that working out due to sheer roster size. They struggle with the Avengers making sure everyone gets at least a moment to shine. Could you imagine trying to juggle THAT many people, much less expecting an audience to juggle that many. You've gotta remember, not everyone watching the films are huge comic nerds, so asking them to keep up with that many characters really is asking alot.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

The X-Franchise is besides Deadpool totally dead in my opinion.
We have enough characters in the MCU already, use and develope them.

Let's see how their second shot at Dark Phoenix fairs. I don't have much faith, but Apocalypse was really the first X-film (other than X3) to truly underperform both financially and critically. The move to space will either save or condemn the X series I think.

 

[Dasher10]

Let's see how their second shot at Dark Phoenix fairs. I don't have much faith, but Apocalypse was really the first X-film (other than X3) to truly underperform both financially and critically. The move to space will either save or condemn the X series I think.

XMO was regarded as worse than either.

TLS' issue was that too many characters were either killed off or In Name Only.

XMA's issue is that Apocalypse's motivation was unclear and the film focused more on familiar characters as opposed to new faces.

I also feel like Age of Ultron and Civil War both did a good job with balancing their characters. I feel like Marvel could handle the X-Men, Fantastic Four and X-Force joining in. Maybe not put the Guardians, SHIELD or Inhumans in the story but everyone else gets a major role.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

XMO was regarded as worse than either.

TLS' issue was that too many characters were either killed off or In Name Only.

XMA's issue is that Apocalypse's motivation was unclear and the film focused more on familiar characters as opposed to new faces.

I also feel like Age of Ultron and Civil War both did a good job with balancing their characters. I feel like Marvel could handle the X-Men, Fantastic Four and X-Force joining in. Maybe not put the Guardians, SHIELD or Inhumans in the story but everyone else gets a major role.

I don't even count XMO. Hell, I had honestly forgotten it existed. That's crazy. Haha My mind just kinda blocked that turd out! And truthfully, I was one of the 5 people that really enjoyed Apocalypse. TLS's issue was Brett Ratner and the rush job to beat Superman Returns to the theater. Ratner is simply an inferior director, and Fox's petty butt hurt attitude about Singer wanting to do SR caused the X series' first major misstep. I guess we'll get a peek once IW hits to see how Marvel handles SUCH a large cast, but if anyone can pull it off, they can.

 

[dax]

I don't even count XMO. Hell, I had honestly forgotten it existed. That's crazy. Haha My mind just kinda blocked that turd out!

Everyone likes to do that but they all forget that the original trilogy has made a dozen references to Origins (even before the film was made). Other than the weapon X flashbacks, you have:

-Rogue asking Wolverine if he was in the army (she has no idea that he served in the civil war, world war 1 & 2, and vietnam, Although, neither does he).
-William Stryker's service in the Vietnam war ("I was piloting black ops missions in the jungles of North Vietnam while you were sucking on your momma's tit at Woodstock, Kelly.")
-Sabertooth's unspoken familiarity with both Wolverine and Cyclops (him taking Wolverine's dog tags and dodging Cyclops' optic lasers).
-Stryker's computer files contained Cyclops', Gambit's, and Quicksilver's names.
-Charles Xavier still walking despite being crippled at the end of First Class.
And
-Stryker mentioned that he and Wolverine did some work together before Wolverine volunteered for the weapon X experiment.

The Wolverine and Days of Future Past also acknowledge Origins while Apocalypse repeats its history with the weapon X experiment and Cyclops' origin story.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Everyone likes to do that but they all forget that the original trilogy has made a dozen references to Origins (even before the film was made). Other than the weapon X flashbacks, you have:

-Rogue asking Wolverine if he was in the army (she has no idea that he served in the civil war, world war 1 & 2, and vietnam, Although, neither does he).
-William Stryker's service in the Vietnam war ("I was piloting black ops missions in the jungles of North Vietnam while you were sucking on your momma's tit at Woodstock, Kelly.")
-Sabertooth's unspoken familiarity with both Wolverine and Cyclops (him taking Wolverine's dog tags and dodging Cyclops' optic lasers).
-Stryker's computer files contained Cyclops', Gambit's, and Quicksilver's names.
-Charles Xavier still walking despite being crippled at the end of First Class.
And
-Stryker mentioned that he and Wolverine did some work together before Wolverine volunteered for the weapon X experiment.

The Wolverine and Days of Future Past also acknowledge Origins while Apocalypse repeats its history with the weapon X experiment and Cyclops' origin story.

Why? WHY?!?! Why would you do such a thing you evil, EVIL bastard?!?! I am perfectly content only halfway paying attention, so those things not adding up never bothered me at all.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

Let's see how their second shot at Dark Phoenix fairs. I don't have much faith, but Apocalypse was really the first X-film (other than X3) to truly underperform both financially and critically. The move to space will either save or condemn the X series I think.

Yeah, about that "space" thing...
http://x-menfilms.com/blog/2017/08/...n-dark-phoenix-more-grounded-than-the-comics/

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Yeah, about that "space" thing...
http://x-menfilms.com/blog/2017/08/...n-dark-phoenix-more-grounded-than-the-comics/

Well ****...for once I was hoping they might get a little out there with things. I'm usually ALL FOR grounding a story, but I REALLY hoped we'd be getting a full blown X-Men comic book story. I was already concerned about Kinsberg, and now it's starting to add up to more and more worry. This just smells of another Ratner situation. Dammit...

 

[Dasher10]

Well ****...for once I was hoping they might get a little out there with things. I'm usually ALL FOR grounding a story, but I REALLY hoped we'd be getting a full blown X-Men comic book story. I was already concerned about Kinsberg, and now it's starting to add up to more and more worry. This just smells of another Ratner situation. Dammit...

It'll presumably be the Shi'Ar invading Earth. Think Chris Claremont's End of Greys.

 

[rockman1216]

I could NEVER in a million years see that working out due to sheer roster size. They struggle with the Avengers making sure everyone gets at least a moment to shine. Could you imagine trying to juggle THAT many people, much less expecting an audience to juggle that many. You've gotta remember, not everyone watching the films are huge comic nerds, so asking them to keep up with that many characters really is asking alot.

I heard this with Civil War, it worked

I've been hearing this with Infinity War

The way I see it if you have the right writer, the right director, and the right crew you can make it work.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

I heard this with Civil War, it worked

I've been hearing this with Infinity War

The way I see it if you have the right writer, the right director, and the right crew you can make it work.

Man, it's been so long I don't even remember what this was in regards to. I pretty much agree with you on the writer's/director comment, but what we were discussing would have a larger roster than IW correct? I never thought Civil War would be a problem, but I think IW will be pushing it with roster size. If it's any larger than that I just don't see how each character can get any type of moment without having a much longer movie.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

It'll presumably be the Shi'Ar invading Earth. Think Chris Claremont's End of Greys.

It could be worse. At least the Shi'Ar are involved, but Kinsberg still worries me, and that's not gonna change until I see some footage. I know that a few snippets aren't the end all be all because we've all been fooled by fantastic trailers, but if it looks like **** right off the bat, there's no hiding that.

 

[ADollarADay]

Sansa Stark as Jean Grey already killed Dark Phoenix for me.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Sansa Stark as Jean Grey already killed Dark Phoenix for me.

Give her a chance. She didn't have much to do in Apocalypse. Oh God! Who am I kidding?! She's so ****ing wooden!!! And it wasn't this obviously, but she admitted to getting a film role from someone MUCH better that deserved it far more simply because she had a stronger social media presence!!! This is how we're casting movies now!!! Da' ****?!?!?!

 

[Jordacar]

I mostly blame Kinberg and his inability to compose lifelike human dialog.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

I mostly blame Kinberg and his inability to compose lifelike human dialog.

And now he's got control of the whole baby...sigh...

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Even if Kinberg started with a great script (and chances are he didn't) I wouldn't trust him to put that great script on screen.

I don't think there's anyone on the planet (including Josh Trank) who I would trust less than Kinberg.

Fant4stic was his opus. He has never had more control of a film than he did with Fant4stic. He wrote it and probably directed a large chunk.

If Kinberg had 1/2 of the talent he needs to do Dark Phoenix right, he would have been able to make Fant4stic work on at least some levels.

Maybe he couldn't have made a great film of it, but I believe even a moderately talented film-maker could have made Fant4stic much better if they had been given the authority Kinberg was given.

... it would be nearly impossible to make it worse.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Even if Kinberg started with a great script (and chances are he didn't) I wouldn't trust him to put that great script on screen.

I don't think there's anyone on the planet (including Josh Trank) who I would trust less than Kinberg.

Fant4stic was his opus. He has never had more control of a film than he did with Fant4stic. He wrote it and probably directed a large chunk.

If Kinberg had 1/2 of the talent he needs to do Dark Phoenix right, he would have been able to make Fant4stic work on at least some levels.

Maybe he couldn't have made a great film of it, but I believe even a moderately talented film-maker could have made Fant4stic much better if they had been given the authority Kinberg was given.

... it would be nearly impossible to make it worse.

Yeah...I'd rather watch my copy of the Corman version... animated Human Torch scene and all...

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Yeah...I'd rather watch my copy of the Corman version... animated Human Torch scene and all...

Imagine if they had simply started with the Corman script, updated it some, used modern special effects and production design that looked like it came out of the comic books.

That might not have been a great film, but it would have been a LOT better than what they did.

... and with talented enough people and the right tweaks it could have even been a pretty good film.

 

[wobbly]

Even if Kinberg started with a great script (and chances are he didn't) I wouldn't trust him to put that great script on screen.

I don't think there's anyone on the planet (including Josh Trank) who I would trust less than Kinberg.

Fant4stic was his opus. He has never had more control of a film than he did with Fant4stic. He wrote it and probably directed a large chunk.

If Kinberg had 1/2 of the talent he needs to do Dark Phoenix right, he would have been able to make Fant4stic work on at least some levels.

Maybe he couldn't have made a great film of it, but I believe even a moderately talented film-maker could have made Fant4stic much better if they had been given the authority Kinberg was given.

... it would be nearly impossible to make it worse.

If we assume most or all of the bad wig Mara scenes in FFINO were Kinberg's reshoots, and pretty much all of the last 15 minutes or so was his direction, that doesn't bode well at all for his directing chops. Not that Trank's work was inspired in the slightest either.

Kinberg's writing prowess is an already known quantity. Pretty damned sh#t when he is flying solo. Resume speaks for itself.

So Dark Phoenix is something I'm not expecting much from at all if he has not had more experienced and more talented assistance to guide him.

Maybe he can surprise the hell out of me. Stranger things have happened. Him landing the gig in the first place for example.

 

[wobbly]

Imagine if they had simply started with the Corman script, updated it some, used modern special effects and production design that looked like it came out of the comic books.

That might not have been a great film, but it would have been a LOT better than what they did.

... and with talented enough people and the right tweaks it could have even been a pretty good film.

Cormans effort had its heart in the right place, but very obvious budget limitations, clumsy script, and some curious acting (Doom's constant hand/finger gymnastics always makes me laugh) were always gonna relegate it to 'so bad its fun to watch with a group of inebriated friends' fodder.

One thing I thought they did fairly well was finding a suitable means of introducing Doom early and getting him disfigured without throwing him into the space ship and having him powered up with the 4. The accident still had a connection to the origin of the 4, but not nearly as direct.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

If we assume most or all of the bad wig Mara scenes in FFINO were Kinberg's reshoots, and pretty much all of the last 15 minutes or so was his direction, that doesn't bode well at all for his directing chops. Not that Trank's work was inspired in the slightest either.

Kinberg's writing prowess is an already known quantity. Pretty damned sh#t when he is flying solo. Resume speaks for itself.

So Dark Phoenix is something I'm not expecting much from at all if he has not had more experienced and more talented assistance to guide him.

Maybe he can surprise the hell out of me. Stranger things have happened. Him landing the gig in the first place for example.

A few weeks before ROTSS, I picked up the novelization (they used to release a novel before the films in those days - I'm not sure if they stopped doing that or I just stopped caring enough to buy them).

When I read the book, I could actually see a pretty decent FF film in my head. The story itself wasn't that bad and if Tim Story had been a better director I think he actually could have made a great film out of it.

But within the first 5 minutes, I realized how badly a bad director can screw up a decent script. The whole tone, pacing etc. were completely off. Even though I had read the book, the movie I was watching was completely different than the movie I had in my head.

And then on the other hand you have someone like David Fincher who could make a great movie out of the phone book.

Based on what I know of Kinberg (including, as you point out, his inability to create intriguing characters and situations at the script stage - and if someone doesn't have that inherent ability, I highly doubt they have the ability to communicate in the much more subtle and complex language of film-directing) I'm nearly certain he's far more of a Tim Story than a David Fincher.

 

[dax]

Why? WHY?!?! Why would you do such a thing you evil, EVIL bastard?!?! I am perfectly content only halfway paying attention, so those things not adding up never bothered me at all.

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Cormans effort had its heart in the right place, but very obvious budget limitations, clumsy script, and some curious acting (Doom's constant hand/finger gymnastics always makes me laugh) were always gonna relegate it to 'so bad its fun to watch with a group of inebriated friends' fodder.

One thing I thought they did fairly well was finding a suitable means of introducing Doom early and getting him disfigured without throwing him into the space ship and having him powered up with the 4. The accident still had a connection to the origin of the 4, but not nearly as direct.

YES!!!! It was so obvious that whoever played Doom simply couldn't act through the mask, so he made up for it by overacting with his hands! One of the funniest things I've seen on film.