The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - Part 12

[AndrewGilkison]

I don't see the point of the 60's displacement. Is it so the FF could canonically "be first" in the MCU? Because I don't see why that is so important. Is it because they were created in the 60s? So were Spider-Man and Thor and Iron Man, and yet their movies are modern day.

I think if the FF come into the MCU they should be cutting edge and futuristic, not treated like a retro property. Reed Richards should look at Tony Stark and laugh at him for wasting his genius on creating metal suits.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Specifically, I think the characters are too similar to each other.

A teenager discovers that they are a mutant during a time of extreme stress/hardship that causes their powers to manifest. Ostracized by society they come into contact with Professor Charles Xavier who teaches them how to control and use their powers alongside other mutants to protect those that hate and fear them.

That statement describes like 95% of X-Men characters. The only thing that changes is their looks and powers and a few specific details.

But I think that's where a good film comes in. Either the comics have created some interesting details of a certain character's life and personality or they haven't. In the case of the former, tell that story. In the case of the latter, the filmmaker has a blank slate to create something.

As I mentioned a while back, we all know Captain America and Iron man from their films. We know Steve Rodgers and we know Tony Stark and we see them as two very different people. We can imagine how they would each act in a unique way given a certain situation. And Luke Cage and Matt Murdock are also very unique people with very different backgrounds and personalities.

But then if you think about Cyclops and Ice-Man from the X-Men films, they're very poorly defined. They're pretty much generic people who have no real personalities or character. Audiences can't become engaged.

Everybody has a story. If you pick any random person off the street and start asking about their life, there will be a lot there. Unique experiences, beliefs, personality quirks etc. Fox needs to give their characters that kind of vibrancy and life.

I do not think that would work as well with the X-Men. Only Wolverine really has a history of working well on his own. Better to take the Guardians route and introduce a core team with a new member or two every film.

Yeah, they could definitely do a few characters at once, but they should only focus on as many as they can clearly define in each film.

Even though Guardians had several characters each one was clearly defined and unique and the film focused on that small core. With X-Men, we have characters coming and going throughout the films and we rarely get the time to really know any of them.

It's partly about better writing and directing, but part of that better writing and directing is knowing who your characters are and communicating that to the audience. And juggling 20 characters just makes that task all the more difficult.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Reed Richards should look at Tony Stark and laugh at him for wasting his genius on creating metal suits.

I really love the idea of a Reed/Stark rivalry... or more specifically Tony trying to compete with Reed and Reed barely even noticing him. After seeing Tony as the smartest person in the current MCU, it would really put an exclamation point on Reed's brilliance if they showed how far ahead of Tony he was.

Unfortunately, it's seeming more and more unlikely that Robert Downey Jr. will still be around by the time we see Reed Richards.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

But I think that's where a good film comes in. Either the comics have creating some interesting details of a certain character's life and personality or they haven't. In the case of the former, tell that story. In the case of the latter, the filmmaker has a blank slate to create something.

As I mentioned a while back, we all know Captain America and Iron man from their films. We know Steve Rodgers and we know Tony Stark and we see them as two very different people. We can imagine how they would each act in a unique way given a certain situation. And Luke Cage and Matt Murdock are also very unique people with very different backgrounds and personalities.

But then if you think about Cyclops and Ice-Man from the X-Men films, they're very poorly defined. They're pretty much generic people who have no real personalities or character. Audiences can't become engaged.

Everybody has a story. If you pick any random person off the street and start asking about their life, there will be a lot there. Unique experiences, beliefs, personality quirks etc. Fox needs to give their characters that kind of vibrancy and life.

Everyone has a story, but some are a lot more similar than others. And in the case of X-Men, most of the characters (there are exceptions like Wolverine) they are fundamentally very similar. They hit the same story beats and have the same general character arc.

Compare that to The Avengers. Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, and Hulk are all very different characters so they can all have solo films and have them be unique. Iron Man is a rich billionaire who undergoes a midlife crisis after being traumatized as a hostage and seeks to redeem himself for his past actions by building his own supersuit. Captain America is a scrawny kid who wants to fight for good, gets powers as a volunteer in a science experiment and becomes a famous hero beloved by his country. Thor is a god that was born into royalty in an alien realm that can travel to other worlds in search of battle. The Hulk is a scientist that was in a tragic lab accident that turned him into a monster and a fugitive on the run from the federal government. The various X-Men members, with few exceptions, are not anywhere near as diverse. Cyclops and Iceman really aren't very different from each other. Nowhere near to the extent that Iron Man and Captain America are.

 

[Zarex]

I don't see the point of the 60's displacement. Is it so the FF could canonically "be first" in the MCU? Because I don't see why that is so important. Is it because they were created in the 60s? So were Spider-Man and Thor and Iron Man, and yet their movies are modern day.

I think if the FF come into the MCU they should be cutting edge and futuristic, not treated like a retro property. Reed Richards should look at Tony Stark and laugh at him for wasting his genius on creating metal suits.

There's a number of reasons a 60s MCU FF reboot makes sense. It would be a clear break from the two awful previous versions and give the team the opportunity to excel apart from the modern day heroes. They would be the lead heroes rather than Avengers-lite.

The retro "Kirby-esque" designs would fit right home in the 60s setting and the team could explore a time period we haven't seen in the MCU along with younger versions of fan favorites. When (if) the team comes back I would be surprised if it's not set in the 60s. Or at least start there before undertaking a time jump.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

There's a number of reasons a 60s MCU FF reboot makes sense. It would be a clear break from the two awful previous versions and give the team the opportunity to excel apart from the modern day heroes. They would be the lead heroes rather than Avengers-lite.

The retro "Kirby-esque" designs would fit right home in the 60s setting and the team could explore a time period we haven't seen in the MCU along with younger versions of fan favorites. When (if) the team comes back I would be surprised if it's not set in the 60s. Or at least start there before undertaking a time jump.

The problem I have with making the FF a retro property is that as soon as Reed Richards enters the modern day he is no longer the smartest man in the Marvel universe. Because he would always be several steps behind the times and not cutting edge and futuristic. If he's stuck in space or whatever for decades, he will be Captain Amereica-lite; always be playing catch up to the modern day, and I think that diminishes him as a character.

I would focus less on the FF being superheroes and more on them being futuristic characters. I'd have Reed Richards be a cutting edge scientist who wants to give mankind the frequent space travel and flying cars that we always fantasized about. Colonizing and terraforming other planets and things like that. That's how I'd update the FF's origin. Instead of trying to beat the Soviets to space it would be about testing a man-made warp drive ship.

 

[InCali]

They could be on shaky ground if the next few films suck (and I think Simon Kinberg's Dark Phoenix is likely to suck... I almost abbreviated that as DP, but thought better of it ) they could be in trouble. If they continue to rehash the same themes and continue to throw too many characters at audiences without developing any of them, they're likely to be in trouble.

As I'm looking forward to Defenders, I'm realizing Marvel did the same thing with the Defenders as they did with the Avengers. They introduced the individual characters in their own shows, so we got to know and like them, and now it should be fun to see those unique, well-defined characters interact.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why Fox isn't doing something similar with their X-Characters.

Hullo???? They're on shaky ground NOW. I though FC and DofP were both really good. At the time I thought Apocalypse needed to be good or they were in trouble. Then we got Logan; which while I will admit was very well done, wasn't my cup of tea. The problem is that it was the end of the line for their most popular character. That doesn't mean solid ground to me.

A retro for FF could work "IF" it's done right. Hell, Marvel is going back to the 90's with CM. It's all about the plan and, IMO, Fox may have one, but they've been all over the map and I don't have confidence that they know what the frell they're doing long term. Note that this is their premier property.

 

[InCali]

The problem I have with making the FF a retro property is that as soon as Reed Richards enters the modern day he is no longer the smartest man in the Marvel universe. Because he would always be several steps behind the times and not cutting edge and futuristic. If he's stuck in space or whatever for decades, he will be Captain Amereica-lite; always be playing catch up to the modern day, and I think that diminishes him as a character.

I would focus less on the FF being superheroes and more on them being futuristic characters. I'd have Reed Richards be a cutting edge scientist who wants to give mankind the frequent space travel and flying cars that we always fantasized about. Colonizing and terraforming other planets and things like that. That's how I'd update the FF's origin. Instead of trying to beat the Soviets to space it would be about testing a man-made warp drive ship.

WRT Reed, I totally disagree. Back in the 60s he was thinking about things we still can't figure out (and prolly don't exist LOL), but the point is that just because 50 years have passed, doesn't mean the guys back then are behind even Tony Stark....Just ask Hank Pym.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

WRT Reed, I totally disagree. Back in the 60s he was thinking about things we still can't figure out (and prolly don't exist LOL), but the point is that just because 50 years have passed, doesn't mean the guys back then are behind even Tony Stark....Just ask Hank Pym.

Its not just having his origin being in the 60's that would make him behind the times, its the concept that he would be floating in space or whatever and have missed the past few decades.

 

[Dasher10]

Does anyone else worry that even if Marvel got all their rights back, they could wind up doing to them what they're doing with Inhumans and Cloak and Dagger?

 

[First Avenger]

Does anyone else worry that even if Marvel got all their rights back, they could wind up doing to them what they're doing with Inhumans and Cloak and Dagger?

Nah. Feige would take them under his protective wing and deliver a legit F4 movie. I could even see him rebooting the Inhumans in a F4 movie after that God-awful show.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Does anyone else worry that even if Marvel got all their rights back, they could wind up doing to them what they're doing with Inhumans and Cloak and Dagger?

Nah. Feige would take them under his protective wing and deliver a legit F4 movie. I could even see him rebooting the Inhumans in a F4 movie after that God-awful show.

Yeah, I think this is the silver lining of the Inhumans cloud.

If the series is done after 8 episodes, it will be forgotten and the characters could be rebooted with the FF.

And when FF comes back, I think Marvel will only do them when they're sure they can do them right.

...and that might mean we have to wait a while as Marvel builds them into their long-term plans.

On a side note, I sort of like the fact that, after several comments from Feige and rumors and announcements from Fox, things have been quiet for a while.

Hopefully Homecoming and the comments from both sides were catalysts that got them talking and hopefully there are a lot of accountants and lawyers locked away somewhere hammering out details.

 

[Zarex]

Its not just having his origin being in the 60's that would make him behind the times, its the concept that he would be floating in space or whatever and have missed the past few decades.

Theories Einstein posited a century ago are being proven correct today. A Reed time warped into the present day is still going to be the smartest damn guy in the room.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/11/10965312/einstein-gravitational-waves-discovered-announced-video

 

[InCali]

Theories Einstein posited a century ago are being proven correct today. A Reed time warped into the present day is still going to be the smartest damn guy in the room.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/11/10965312/einstein-gravitational-waves-discovered-announced-video

I agree with the intent of what you're saying, but, if you look at it from a scientific perspective, nothing is ever proven "correct". Theories are shown to work and sometimes they don't explain certain observable phenomena.

We just keep digging and digging and get closer to the "truth".

Still, Reed would be the smartest guy in the room; and that includes the archenemy we all know I'm talking about. He just has a sense of morality. Sort of like Dumbledore and Voldemort or Yoda and Vader/Emperor.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

The internet would be one of the biggest changes and that would be something that Reed could catch up on very quickly. Other than that, there are very few other things that are truly 'new'. Computers are smaller and faster and much more common, but a Reed from the late '60s/early '70s would have used computers and understood binary and machine languages.

The only difference is things would be much simpler and more easily accessible. Reed would make some big leaps because he wouldn't have to work as hard to build things from scratch, but he'd quickly catch-up and within a short time be back ahead of the technology and forced to create his own systems.

There's nothing real baffling about what has happened over the past 50 years and we've followed a logical path that Reed probably would have anticipated.

For example, he'd open the hood of a modern car and see that it uses fuel injection instead of carburetors (and Reed would be familiar with fuel injection because it was introduced by AMC in the '50s) and electronic ignition instead of a distributor (and Reed would know about the electronic ignition systems that were first used in the late '40s and becoming common in race engines in the '60s). There would be no modern technology that would shock or amaze Reed. He would just see logical refinement and progression of technology he already knew about.

 

[ADollarADay]

I think you have to divide the Fox properties into two very distinct units. Most X-Men fans are satisfied with what they're getting, so they'll show up to New Mutants or Dark Phoenix films - even if initial reviews aren't great, trailers aren't impressive etc.

But it's a completely different story with FF. After 3 films that haven't broken out of the 30's on RT and the last one being completely miserable in every imaginable way, they've lost the interest of both hard-core fans like me and more casual fans.

So FF is in much worse shape than Spidey was after ASM2 and Fox will either have to partner with Marvel or hire Ridley Scott to get me - the closest thing to a sure sale they had 4 years ago - to show up.

Not really.

 

[Dark Raven]

The internet would be one of the biggest changes and that would be something that Reed could catch up on very quickly. Other than that, there are very few other things that are truly 'new'. Computers are smaller and faster and much more common, but a Reed from the late '60s/early '70s would have used computers and understood binary and machine languages.

The only difference is things would be much simpler and more easily accessible. Reed would make some big leaps because he wouldn't have to work as hard to build things from scratch, but he'd quickly catch-up and within a short time be back ahead of the technology and forced to create his own systems.

There's nothing real baffling about what has happened over the past 50 years and we've followed a logical path that Reed probably would have anticipated.

For example, he'd open the hood of a modern car and see that it uses fuel injection instead of carburetors (and Reed would be familiar with fuel injection because it was introduced by AMC in the '50s) and electronic ignition instead of a distributor (and Reed would know about the electronic ignition systems that were first used in the late '40s and becoming common in race engines in the '60s). There would be no modern technology that would shock or amaze Reed. He would just see logical refinement and progression of technology he already knew about.

*Ahem* Fox holding onto the FF rights and keeping on trying to make an FF movie when the returns are lower each time.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

The internet would be one of the biggest changes and that would be something that Reed could catch up on very quickly. Other than that, there are very few other things that are truly 'new'. Computers are smaller and faster and much more common, but a Reed from the late '60s/early '70s would have used computers and understood binary and machine languages.

The only difference is things would be much simpler and more easily accessible. Reed would make some big leaps because he wouldn't have to work as hard to build things from scratch, but he'd quickly catch-up and within a short time be back ahead of the technology and forced to create his own systems.

There's nothing real baffling about what has happened over the past 50 years and we've followed a logical path that Reed probably would have anticipated.

For example, he'd open the hood of a modern car and see that it uses fuel injection instead of carburetors (and Reed would be familiar with fuel injection because it was introduced by AMC in the '50s) and electronic ignition instead of a distributor (and Reed would know about the electronic ignition systems that were first used in the late '40s and becoming common in race engines in the '60s). There would be no modern technology that would shock or amaze Reed. He would just see logical refinement and progression of technology he already knew about.

I don't see the upside or the point of having the FF's origin taking place in the 60's. Either it diminishes Reed Richards and puts him behind the times, making him less of a genius, or Reed was so far ahead of his time that its ultimately kind of pointless (because it has no effect on him). So why do it?

I watched MovieBob's videos on how he'd have the FF in the MCU and he championed the idea of having their origin in the 60's, but as soon as he details what would happen in the movies he does nothing with the idea. Every part of his pitch for his FF movies could easily be done if their origin took place in the modern day. So again... I ultimately don't see the point.

If we're talking about another standalone franchise I could see it being a good and fun idea. But if we're talking about bringing the FF into the MCU than I feel it just makes their origin convoluted and messy.

 

[Stark Bauer]

I don't see the point of the 60's displacement. Is it so the FF could canonically "be first" in the MCU? Because I don't see why that is so important. Is it because they were created in the 60s? So were Spider-Man and Thor and Iron Man, and yet their movies are modern day.

I think if the FF come into the MCU they should be cutting edge and futuristic, not treated like a retro property. Reed Richards should look at Tony Stark and laugh at him for wasting his genius on creating metal suits.

Aaaand you just convinced me this is the better route to take. Well done!

Also, Reed's superior intellect makes the FF that much more formidable when compared with The Avengers. They can hold their own against them if they have to simply because of Reed

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Not really.

Well honestly, the only gauge I have is based on the X-Fans who post here, and those people seem to like everything Fox does.

But in terms of something more objective, X-Men Apocalypse had a 48% on RT but made over a half billion box office, so I think that shows us, at least up until now, people have been willing to show up for even shaky X-Films.

X-Fans may not be 100% happy, but with Logan, Deadpool and the broader X-Men films, I think it's safe to say X-Fans are FAR happier with things than FF fans.

 

[WeaponXCII]

Well honestly, the only gauge I have is based on the X-Fans who post here, and those people seem to like everything Fox does.

But in terms of something more objective, X-Men Apocalypse had a 48% on RT but made over a half billion box office, so I think that shows us, at least up until now, people have been willing to show up for even shaky X-Films.

X-Fans may not be 100% happy, but with Logan, Deadpool and the broader X-Men films, I think it's safe to say X-Fans are FAR happier with things than FF fans.

The only recent one that I thought was good as a comic book movie- and not just from a purely film-making standpoint like Logan- was Deadpool, and the sequel looks like it might be a bit shaky, to borrow your word. After about 2008 (for obvious reasons), I haven't even come close to liking nearly any of the X-Men properties Fox has put out.

And even if X-Men fans are "far happier" than Fantastic Four fans (side note: I'm part of both groups, though the latter to a lesser degree)... that really isn't saying much. At all.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

And even if X-Men fans are "far happier" than Fantastic Four fans (side note: I'm part of both groups, though the latter to a lesser degree)... that really isn't saying much. At all.

Yeah, if FF fans are at 1 on a scale of 1 to 10 and X-Men fans are at 6, neither may be good, but there's still a big difference.

And I appreciate the perspective. Like I say, I mainly stick to FF discussions, so the things I typically see are the X-Men fans (pretty much the only group that would defend Fox's treatment of FF ) who come in here and tell us we should give Fox a chance because they're doing good things with X-Men.

On a somewhat related note, I've seen a lot of rumors of X-Men/MCU crossovers over the years.

It may be unlikely - though not impossible - that Fox and Marvel could work a broad deal at some point that would give Marvel partial or complete control of FF while also getting them involved in the X-Men and opening up the possibility of cross-overs.

 

[Spiderine]

The X franchise got off to a solid start. X2 remains one of the best in the genre till this day. Its shaky now because of incompetence, continuity, and longevity. Been around 17 years and going now. But at least there has been a few gems since X2.

There is no franchise with classic characters currently under Marvel or DC that has had to deal with the problems FF has since 1994 Corman. And the issue they face now is being a franchise stuck on an island by themselves. Nobody will care what they do in an era where team ups and crossovers are all the rage.

 

[Spiderine]

I don't see the upside or the point of having the FF's origin taking place in the 60's. Either it diminishes Reed Richards and puts him behind the times, making him less of a genius, or Reed was so far ahead of his time that its ultimately kind of pointless (because it has no effect on him). So why do it?

I watched MovieBob's videos on how he'd have the FF in the MCU and he championed the idea of having their origin in the 60's, but as soon as he details what would happen in the movies he does nothing with the idea. Every part of his pitch for his FF movies could easily be done if their origin took place in the modern day. So again... I ultimately don't see the point.

If we're talking about another standalone franchise I could see it being a good and fun idea. But if we're talking about bringing the FF into the MCU than I feel it just makes their origin convoluted and messy.

I was originally against the idea of a 60's FF in the MCU because it would have involved some type of disappearance or time displacement. I still don't support the idea but I find it interesting that Captain Marvel will take place in the 90's meaning her existence was present. And that alien Skrulls were here. Im dying to see how this will be executed in the overall scheme. DC pulled this off with WW too.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Back in 2005, I was completely against the idea of a retro film, because I've always felt the FF should be cutting edge.

I'm more interested in the idea now than I was (but I don't want to get into the trap of defending the idea, because I'm still on the fence regarding the idea).

We've already seen a lot of the elements of a great, modern FF film in some of the other MCU films, so I'd like to see the FF set apart from the other MCU films so it doesn't feel like just variations of what we've already seen.

And a retro film would give the opportunity for some funky retro-future designs pulled right out of the Kirby FF books. That might be cool to see.

I'd love to see a talented director plaster the production design office with panels from FF 1-100 and basically say: "This is what the film will look like."

But there are complications, and I don't really want to see one FF film in the 60's/70's and then an immediate jump to the future. If they're going to go that route, I'd like to see at least 3 films in that setting so they could really flesh it out.

But my feeling at this point is I'd like to see what Marvel can come up with. If they decide to do a retro, I'm in. If they decide to do a modern setting, I'm in.

As long as it's not Fox, I'm interested in seeing whatever they come up with.