The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - Part 12

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Willie Lumpkin said:
So should we just wait until Fox announces it, or should we say: "NO!!! That's an idiotic idea. Don't even think about it, Fox." in an attempt to prevent them from creating another terrible, terrible film?

You can do the former, I'll do the latter. Even if it's a 1 out of 100 chance of happening, that's too much.
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You do that. Meanwhile, some of us won't just believe something at face value because a 'source' said so. Maybe you will in this circumstance. That's perfectly fine. That sort of nonsense leads outlets to reporting that Matt Reeves' Batman film isn't part of the DCEU, that Logan has a post-credits scene, or that Thor Ragnarok only has a runtime of 90 minutes when none of those stories turned out to be true, even though news sites ran with them. No one said it was a good idea. That's not the point, but no need to just buy into a story based on uncomfirmed sources, especially when more often than not, those rumors turn out to be false.
 
NotNickFury said:
You do that. Meanwhile, some of us won't just believe something at face value because a 'source' said so. Maybe you will in this circumstance. That's perfectly fine. That sort of nonsense leads outlets to reporting that Matt Reeves' Batman film isn't part of the DCEU, that Logan has a post-credits scene, or that Thor Ragnarok only has a runtime of 90 minutes when none of those stories turned out to be true, even though news sites ran with them. No one said it was a good idea. That's not the point, but no need to just buy into a story based on uncomfirmed sources, especially when more often than not, those rumors turn out to be false.
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I didn't say I believed it. I don't believe Fox will make another FF film.

But I also heard a LOT of rumors throughout Fant4stic that turned out to be true.

All we do on these boards is discuss rumors. If you don't want to discuss rumors, nobody's asking you to come in here and discuss rumors.

You can discuss all the officially known facts regarding the next FF film, and the rest of us will discuss the rumors.
 
Fantastikids? Doom Origins? Silver and black? Venom? Joker Origins? Wondertwins? Mysterio? And a host of other crap.

Sony, Fox, and WB are about to bring the industry to its knees. They will bow down to failure. They are vampires sucking the life out of the golden era. Its so much **** on the wall being thrown from studios the stench will fill the movie plex. Even die hard fans are getting tired.
 
Ain't it the truth. Every studio wants the revenue and fan loyalty of the MCU, but they don't want to invest the time in developing the characters, create the support structure required to smoothly manage multiple annual big budget film projects or perform the long term planning required to make it work.
 
Wouldn't using the pitch from a different property, albeit unpublished (and as such it is a different IP) as a base for any new FF kids flick be somewhat problematic?

I can get how they can point at things like Ultimate FF and even some 'What ifs?' and say they are basing the FF film on the actual property (ala FFINO), but using something else entirely from Miller for a base would seem to be pushing their luck on that score.

The 'Future Foundation' thing is the only real comic book thing I can think of that a fantastikids flick might be based (however loosely) upon.
 
wobbly said:
Wouldn't using the pitch from a different property, albeit unpublished (and as such it is a different IP) as a base for any new FF kids flick be somewhat problematic?

I can get how they can point at things like Ultimate FF and even some 'What ifs?' and say they are basing the FF film on the actual property (ala FFINO), but using something else entirely from Miller for a base would seem to be pushing their luck on that score.

The 'Future Foundation' thing is the only real comic book thing I can think of that a fantastikids flick might be based (however loosely) upon.
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If they push forward on this, it could lead to an interesting potential legal case. It would seem that if Fox is considering FF Kids or Doom, they must feel the wording of the contract is vague enough that they can get away with anything that is loosely based on FF and FF related characters.

What if they decide to make a movie that has absolutely nothing to do with the FF but has characters named Ben Grimm, Reed Richards etc. (they were getting very close to that with Fant4stic)? Where is the line (based on the wording and intent of the contract) that differentiates a Fantastic Four film from a film that just uses a few references to FF? Could Fox just make any film and with a few strategically placed situations and names that allow them to say it's FF and keep the rights?

From something I was reading a while back, it seemed like there were some very specific conditions on Spider-Man and how he was allowed to be portrayed, but it seems pretty clear just from Fant4stic that the FF contract must be much more vague.
 
VenomsMom said:
Fantastikids? Doom Origins? Silver and black? Venom? Joker Origins? Wondertwins? Mysterio? And a host of other crap.

Sony, Fox, and WB are about to bring the industry to its knees. They will bow down to failure. They are vampires sucking the life out of the golden era. Its so much **** on the wall being thrown from studios the stench will fill the movie plex. Even die hard fans are getting tired.
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To be fair, I think that some of these could work. Doctor Doom, Venom and Silver and Black don't seem actively horrible.

But the Future Foundation films sounds like it'll be really, really bad since nobody cares about Frank and Val as much as they do the actual Fantastic Four. The Joker film sounds awful as well since it isn't even in the DCEU. Mysterio also sounds like a bad idea since there are a lot of ways that could turn out wrong/boring or make Mysterio too unlikable to root for.
 
Venom and Doom have a legitimate shot and have piqued my interest, the rest are nothing.
 
Darepool said:
Venom and Doom have a legitimate shot and have piqued my interest, the rest are nothing.
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Back in the day, Silver Sable managed to sell half a million copies and lasted for 30 issues. Don't discount that one.

I feel like right now Disney/Marvel know what they're doing. My main complaint is that they aren't trying to get the Hulk distribution rights back nor work out a deal with Universal who could do spin-offs for Red Hulk, She-Hulk and Totally Awesome Hulk. The latter deal works since Universal's monsters franchise has had two flops and zero hits. Same goes for not trying to get shared rights to a certain number of Fox characters who really belong in the MCU (Kang, Annihilus, Blastaar, Juggernaut, Henry Peter Gyrich, Abigail Brand, GW Bridge, all Shi'Ar, all Badoon and all Brood).

Fox are moving in the right direction but Future Foundation sounds bad so far. I'll remain cautiously optimistic since I feel like Silver Surfer would be a better choice compared to Future Foundation since there's more material surrounding the Surfer than there is for the Richards children.

Sony are quickly running out of ideas. Venom and Silver Sable are interesting in theory but untested as lead characters in live-action. Mysterio and Kraven could be good but will likely flop since I don't trust Sony to know what they're doing. If the Kraven film is an adaptation of Kraven's Last Hunt and involves Tom Holland in a supporting role, then I'd be pleased. I still have very little faith in Mysterio since it's hard to imagine that being good.

DC/Warner are the real problem. They're greenlighting too many films but only have release dates up through 2019 while only doing 1-2 films a year. Disney and Fox at the very least are dividing their properties up between TV and film. Warner prefer to double down on the same properties in two different mediums and have two different versions of Superman and The Flash running around at the same time. And now there's talk of a third universe with a Joker spin-off and an additional Joker film set in the DCEU. The Joker only works as an antagonist because he has no redeeming values. The second you humanize him is the second he is no longer interesting. DC also need to worry about too many franchises and how that creates long waits between sequels. DC simply are biting off more than they can chew and focusing on obscure properties rather than getting their A-listers established. For instance, Shazam and Suicide Squad coming out before a Batman solo film is a horrible idea. I'm actually shocked that Suicide Squad made money despite being critically reviled and an obscure property with poor word of mouth.

Here's a best case scenario.

Disney work out a deal with Universal for a Hulk franchise. They also work out a separate deal to get access to specific Fox characters.

Fox manage to use the Future Foundation film as a springboard for a new Fantastic Four film without having to retell the origin (which is good since Fox managed to botch both the 616 and Ultimate origins). We get a Doom who isn't tied to the FF's origin story. We also get a Silver Surfer spin-off. And kids wind up loving the new take on the Fantastic Four through Future Foundation while adults like Doom so Fox hit s broad audience when it's time for a new Fantastic Four film.

Sony somehow manage to make a good Mysterio film and base Kraven on Kraven's Last Hunt. Neither of those films get a sequel and instead we get Spider-Woman becoming a third spin-off franchise.

Warner wind up canceling both Joker films, Dark Universe, Black Adam and Cyborg, refocus the DCEU on core properties while canceling Batgirl and replacing it with Joss Whedon's Justice League 2 (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Nightwing, Green Lantern, Flash and Aquaman). Shazam won't get a sequel. Crisis on Infinite Earths film happens and winds up merging universes with the Arrowverse. Flash TV series is canceled and replaced with Batgirl. Gotham also canceled and replaced with one of the Dark Universe Heroes or Sandman.
 
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Seriously..........wouldnt Venom and Black Cat be more interesting if they were introduced first and then made into spin offs based on their reception?

The same for Doom and some of the other supporting characters and villains. Wouldn't you be more excited to see them if they were properly done like they were in the comics? This truly makes no sense to me. None of these characters were meant to be headliners first. I don't have a problem with certain characters getting their own film but for crying out loud set them up to be successful on their own accord the right way.

How can one look forward to Doom and Venom when they were both butchered in previous versions. Get them right and then maybe you can build a worthy solo franchise around them.
Geeezz......This is beyond stupid.
 
Venom and Doom are two of my favorites. Noah Hawley isn't a plug and you got the DP writers on Venom with Hardy in the lead....I'm also optimistic that Spidey will be involved in some capacity. If it turns out he's not (like has been stated at this time) then I'll change my tune, but until then I'm in my wishful thinking phase. Hawley based on Legion could do great things with Doom. Of course in a perfect world I'd love what you suggested to occur, but I've given up hope on that front, so I'll settle for good creators at the moment.
 
Spiderine said:
Seriously..........wouldnt Venom and Black Cat be more interesting if they were introduced first and then made into spin offs based on their reception?

The same for Doom and some of the other supporting characters and villains. Wouldn't you be more excited to see them if they were properly done like they were in the comics? This truly makes no sense to me. None of these characters were meant to be headliners first. I don't have a problem with certain characters getting their own film but for crying out loud set them up to be successful on their own accord the right way.

How can one look forward to Doom and Venom when they were both butchered in previous versions. Get them right and then maybe you can build a worthy solo franchise around them.
Geeezz......This is beyond stupid.
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I think that's the thing with all these side characters. Once they are defined and known as their film iterations, studios can spin off solo films films. Books of Doom worked for comic book fans because they knew who Doom was, but a Doom film now would only work with people like us... and people like us don't want it.

Even with a character like Black Panther - who can stand on his own - Marvel was wise enough to first introduce him in Civil War.

It also makes me wonder, as I've mentioned before, if Hawley's "Doom" film is based on the Doom from Fant4stic. Sure that would be crazy, but it would also be crazy to reboot a franchise by starting with the villain.
 
Willie Lumpkin said:
I think that's the thing with all these side characters. Once they are defined and known as their film iterations, studios can spin off solo films films. Books of Doom worked for comic book fans because they knew who Doom was, but a Doom film now would only work with people like us... and people like us don't want it.

Even with a character like Black Panther - who can stand on his own - Marvel was wise enough to first introduce him in Civil War.

It also makes me wonder, as I've mentioned before, if Hawley's "Doom" film is based on the Doom from Fant4stic. Sure that would be crazy, but it would also be crazy to reboot a franchise by starting with the villain.
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But what can FOX do if they want to keep the property? Notice how they didn't make a big presentation during SDCC announcing the Doom film because fans would have rebelled. Now imagine if they announced Fantasti-Kids then they would have rioted.

I believe FOX has tarnished the characters of the Fantastic Four Universe so bad, but ego will make them continue. I still Daredevil being successful eats at them.
 
babykhris said:
But what can FOX do if they want to keep the property?
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I think they have one realistic route that they will never take.

1. First and most importantly, they have to write off the next film. They have to go into it with the assumption that it will lose money and they have to accept that and invest for the future. That loss is the price they pay for making three previous bad films.

2. Then, they need a very talented writer and a very talented director who understand and respect the Fantastic Four and want to create a film that captures the key elements of the comic books.

3. They need to give the director the resources he/she needs. Doing the Fantastic Four right will require a budget in the ballpark of $200 million, and as I mentioned in my first point, they will likely not make back their investment on the first film.

4. They need to hire a cast that is appropriate for the characters. Reed is the key and he needs to be a strong, confident leader - not the weak nerdy nothings they have used in the past.

5. They need to engage fans from the start. The director needs to communicate clearly to fans that he/she is one of them. They need to communicate a love for the Fantastic Four and extreme distaste from what has come before.

6. Throughout production, they need to show that they're doing it right. They need to show production art that looks like the Fantastic Four. They need to show props and costumes and sets etc. that all look like they came right out of the comics.

It's not a secret. Marvel does these things with all the films they make (though their task isn't nearly as difficult because they haven't thumbed their nose at fans in the past) , but it requires desire, willingness to invest and understanding of what fans want. And Fox has been sadly lacking on those key points on previous efforts, so I don't believe for a moment they will change their stripes.

If Fox makes another film, I think it's far more likely they'll do what they're telegraphing and what they've done in the past - they'll make a cheap, gimmicky film with an unqualified director, untalented writer and producers who dislike the Fantastic Four and fans of the Fantastic Four. They'll continue to anger fans, continue to lose money and continue to make a mess of things.
 
Yeah, FOX is known to be cheap. They did cut the budget for Fant4stic before filming, which was part of the reason why production was such a mess. Heck, passion projects such as Deadpool and Logan costs less to make than Fant4stic (each less than $100 million). FOX will have to spend a lot more than that if they decide to reboot the F4. Not just production costs, but marketing costs as well. Does FOX have the passion or are they gonna FOX it up again?
 
Darepool said:
Venom and Doom are two of my favorites. Noah Hawley isn't a plug and you got the DP writers on Venom with Hardy in the lead....I'm also optimistic

that Spidey will

be involved in some capacity. If it turns out he's not (like has been

stated at this time) then I'll change my tune, but until then I'm in my wishful thinking phase. Hawley based on Legion could do great things with Doom. Of course in a perfect world I'd love what you suggested to occur, but I've given up hope on that front, so I'll settle for good creators at the moment.
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Venom has to be an anti hero (they already indicated they will be going the Lethal Protector route) and like Deadpool and the movie will be hugely successful. If he looks like he does in the comics, muscular big teeth, like the 90s version, even better. Doesn't even need Spidey tbh
 
Willie Lumpkin said:
I think they have one realistic route that they will never take.

1. First and most importantly, they have to write off the next film. They have to go into it with the assumption that it will lose money and they have to accept that and invest for the future. That loss is the price they pay for making three previous bad films.

2. Then, they need a very talented writer and a very talented director who understand and respect the Fantastic Four and want to create a film that captures the key elements of the comic books.

3. They need to give the director the resources he/she needs. Doing the Fantastic Four right will require a budget in the ballpark of $200 million, and as I mentioned in my first point, they will likely not make back their investment on the first film.

4. They need to hire a cast that is appropriate for the characters. Reed is the key and he needs to be a strong, confident leader - not the weak nerdy nothings they have used in the past.

5. They need to engage fans from the start. The director needs to communicate clearly to fans that he/she is one of them. They need to communicate a love for the Fantastic Four and extreme distaste from what has come before.

6. Throughout production, they need to show that they're doing it right. They need to show production art that looks like the Fantastic Four. They need to show props and costumes and sets etc. that all look like they came right out of the comics.

It's not a secret. Marvel does these things with all the films they make (though their task isn't nearly as difficult because they haven't thumbed their nose at fans in the past) , but it requires desire, willingness to invest and understanding of what fans want. And Fox has been sadly lacking on those key points on previous efforts, so I don't believe for a moment they will change their stripes.

If Fox makes another film, I think it's far more likely they'll do what they're telegraphing and what they've done in the past - they'll make a cheap, gimmicky film with an unqualified director, untalented writer and producers who dislike the Fantastic Four and fans of the Fantastic Four. They'll continue to anger fans, continue to lose money and continue to make a mess of things.
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If they write off the next film, that means 4 strikes against them. Who is then going to watch a 5th film from them even if they hire a talented director with a vision? By then they will have worse than zero credibility. They'll have negative credibility, if that's even possible. They'll be paying fans to come and watch the film, and then when the Fox executives look at their box office return, they'll wonder why the film opened with zero profits on its opening weekend and why on subsequent weekends they seem to still be going down from that.
 
Dark Raven said:
If they write off the next film, that means 4 strikes against them. Who is then going to watch a 5th film from them even if they hire a talented director with a vision? By then they will have worse than zero credibility. They'll have negative credibility, if that's even possible. They'll be paying fans to come and watch the film, and then when the Fox executives look at their box office return, they'll wonder why the film opened with zero profits on its opening weekend and why on subsequent weekends they seem to still be going down from that.
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I'm saying write it off from a financial point of view. It NEEDS to be a critical success and it needs to please fans, but because they're going to have to spend a lot of money and because fans are going to be very skeptical going in, it's probably going to lose money even if it is a great, fan-pleasing film.

And Fox needs to understand that and they need to accept that and they need to make that investment and plan to follow up with another film after that so they can start making money and building a franchise (once they've shown fans they really do care and really can make a good movie).

There's a snowball's chance in hell of Fox doing all that and accepting that financial loss with an eye toward the future, but it's the only way I can imagine for Fox to ever have a chance at making money with the Fantastic Four.
 
Simon Kinberg gets on board and immediately it's grounded and human like FFINO. Grounded and human sounds like industry code for "we don't want to spend the budget on this movie and we aren't good enough to make the fantastical work." After all, wasn't that the case with Fant4stic?
 
Where are the new FFINO or DDINO defenders to fansplain why another FF or Doom film will actually work this time?
 
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