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The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - - Part 13

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So, has this been discussed?

http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/21...isney-acquisition-att-time-warner-1202621813/

I don't see anything new, though. Or am I wrong?
The only detail it is really providing is a clearer picture of valuation.

According to Nathanson’s Nov. 20 report, the combined value of the assets believed to be on the block is estimated at around $48.5 billion, with the 20th Century Fox film and TV production operation and library valued highest at around $15 billion.
Which is right around what many thought they'd be at. The Film & TV studios making up ~30% of the valuation. So, the pieces that Disney wants (Marvel, Star Wars, Avatar) I'd wager that puts it all in the neighborhood ~$8 at the high end.

Stepping back and untying the bits that Disney wants, it becomes clearer why any talks have stalled. If the reports that the Marvel rights are not transferrable are correct then Disney is trying to avoid paying a significant portion of that price and only buying the non-Marvel properties it is interested in. While Fox would likely prefer to bundle them together and sell back to Disney. That puts Disney at a much greater advantage than Fox. A much greater advantage than possibly initially thought.

They can afford to walk away and regain the rights for free when they revert due to contract negation from the sale of Fox's film studio. Plus no studio in their right mind is going to pay a premium just to lose those rights. So Fox can't just sell the studio wholesale to another company, because they need Disney to be at the table regardless of who would be the top bidder. Disney isn't going to come to the table just for these rights. They require other enticement be provided for them.
 
So, has this been discussed?

http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/21...isney-acquisition-att-time-warner-1202621813/

I don't see anything new, though. Or am I wrong?

:up:

I don't think there's anything earth-shaking or surprising in there, but the key point is it was written today and it says things are moving full steam ahead and Comcast is "being very serious".

I think there's been a general feeling that, with the AT&T legal questions, this might have been put on hold for a while, but if the 'sources' are correct, they're not slowing down.

And while the focus seems to be on Comcast and Fox, I think as long as Comcast is looking Disney will be watching very closely and ready to act.
 
It would be great if someone like Peyton Reed got Fantastic Four if it came back to Marvel. And if he brought Christophe Beck with him as composer, we could get a rip-roaring epic FF theme like the Ant-Man theme.
 
The only detail it is really providing is a clearer picture of valuation.

Which is right around what many thought they'd be at. The Film & TV studios making up ~30% of the valuation. So, the pieces that Disney wants (Marvel, Star Wars, Avatar) I'd wager that puts it all in the neighborhood ~$8 at the high end.

Stepping back and untying the bits that Disney wants, it becomes clearer why any talks have stalled. If the reports that the Marvel rights are not transferrable are correct then Disney is trying to avoid paying a significant portion of that price and only buying the non-Marvel properties it is interested in. While Fox would likely prefer to bundle them together and sell back to Disney. That puts Disney at a much greater advantage than Fox. A much greater advantage than possibly initially thought.

They can afford to walk away and regain the rights for free when they revert due to contract negation from the sale of Fox's film studio. Plus no studio in their right mind is going to pay a premium just to lose those rights. So Fox can't just sell the studio wholesale to another company, because they need Disney to be at the table regardless of who would be the top bidder. Disney isn't going to come to the table just for these rights. They require other enticement be provided for them.

Yeah, I'm surprised that they're valuing the film and TV production and library so low. Since Disney probably doesn't have much interest in the production hard-assets, the things that they do have interest in (library and rights) should be relatively affordable. And I assume things like Simpsons, Futurama, X-Files etc. are part of that 'library'. If so, it seems like Disney could get a lot of content and rights for a relatively small investment... if Fox is willing to sell them those parts a la carte.
 
It would be great if someone like Peyton Reed got Fantastic Four if it came back to Marvel. And if he brought Christophe Beck with him as composer, we could get a rip-roaring epic FF theme like the Ant-Man theme.

Peyton was even attached to direct the first FF movie like, 13 years ago. He had some pretty good ideas too,so of course Fox wouldn't listen to him.
 
The only detail it is really providing is a clearer picture of valuation.

Which is right around what many thought they'd be at. The Film & TV studios making up ~30% of the valuation. So, the pieces that Disney wants (Marvel, Star Wars, Avatar) I'd wager that puts it all in the neighborhood ~$8 at the high end.

Stepping back and untying the bits that Disney wants, it becomes clearer why any talks have stalled. If the reports that the Marvel rights are not transferrable are correct then Disney is trying to avoid paying a significant portion of that price and only buying the non-Marvel properties it is interested in. While Fox would likely prefer to bundle them together and sell back to Disney. That puts Disney at a much greater advantage than Fox. A much greater advantage than possibly initially thought.

They can afford to walk away and regain the rights for free when they revert due to contract negation from the sale of Fox's film studio. Plus no studio in their right mind is going to pay a premium just to lose those rights. So Fox can't just sell the studio wholesale to another company, because they need Disney to be at the table regardless of who would be the top bidder. Disney isn't going to come to the table just for these rights. They require other enticement be provided for them.

The most interesting part to me is that no NDA has been signed and no books have been briefed. All valuation done from CMCSA has been done based on publicly available info (except for Hulu where they have insight). Disney has insight on SW, Marvel, Avatar, and Hulu and can make better valuation on those properties. That suggests talks and negotiations are in a much earlier state than I had previously thought.

If you are right and the movie rights are not transferable on a sale (which I doubt), then Disney has a major advantage here and really only needs to purchase Avatar and SW from a content perspective. Everything else would be nice to have. Likewise, with this guy today suggesting that Disney could look at TWX if that deal falls through (which is a much better and stronger play for Disney), they would really only need DC, HB, and HP from a content perspective. Everything else would be nice to have.
 
The only detail it is really providing is a clearer picture of valuation.

Which is right around what many thought they'd be at. The Film & TV studios making up ~30% of the valuation. So, the pieces that Disney wants (Marvel, Star Wars, Avatar) I'd wager that puts it all in the neighborhood ~$8 at the high end.

Stepping back and untying the bits that Disney wants, it becomes clearer why any talks have stalled. If the reports that the Marvel rights are not transferrable are correct then Disney is trying to avoid paying a significant portion of that price and only buying the non-Marvel properties it is interested in. While Fox would likely prefer to bundle them together and sell back to Disney. That puts Disney at a much greater advantage than Fox. A much greater advantage than possibly initially thought.

They can afford to walk away and regain the rights for free when they revert due to contract negation from the sale of Fox's film studio. Plus no studio in their right mind is going to pay a premium just to lose those rights. So Fox can't just sell the studio wholesale to another company, because they need Disney to be at the table regardless of who would be the top bidder. Disney isn't going to come to the table just for these rights. They require other enticement be provided for them.

So if the F4 rights are nontransferable, that explains why Disney is slow to buy the rights. They are probably just trying to wait it out. Does that include X-men as well?
 
The only detail it is really providing is a clearer picture of valuation.

Which is right around what many thought they'd be at. The Film & TV studios making up ~30% of the valuation. So, the pieces that Disney wants (Marvel, Star Wars, Avatar) I'd wager that puts it all in the neighborhood ~$8 at the high end.

Stepping back and untying the bits that Disney wants, it becomes clearer why any talks have stalled. If the reports that the Marvel rights are not transferrable are correct then Disney is trying to avoid paying a significant portion of that price and only buying the non-Marvel properties it is interested in. While Fox would likely prefer to bundle them together and sell back to Disney. That puts Disney at a much greater advantage than Fox. A much greater advantage than possibly initially thought.

They can afford to walk away and regain the rights for free when they revert due to contract negation from the sale of Fox's film studio. Plus no studio in their right mind is going to pay a premium just to lose those rights. So Fox can't just sell the studio wholesale to another company, because they need Disney to be at the table regardless of who would be the top bidder. Disney isn't going to come to the table just for these rights. They require other enticement be provided for them.

If that's the case, then Disney is in the driver's seat if Fox indeed sells their film & TV division, because they will regain the rights of FF & X-Men whether they purchased Fox or not. Of course, Fox can choose not to sell in the end, but that just means the status quo wins, but I think one way or the other there will be a buyer for Fox. Perhaps Disney saw their advantage so they're trying to buy Fox at a good price.
 
Yeah, I'm surprised that they're valuing the film and TV production and library so low. Since Disney probably doesn't have much interest in the production hard-assets, the things that they do have interest in (library and rights) should be relatively affordable. And I assume things like Simpsons, Futurama, X-Files etc. are part of that 'library'. If so, it seems like Disney could get a lot of content and rights for a relatively small investment... if Fox is willing to sell them those parts a la carte.
The tricky part about it is that properties only hold so much value for so long, and as long as they are in the right hands. (Exhibit A: Fantastic Four.) Disney figured this out a long time ago with its own classic library, and why they only release certain films in a limited run. It's an artificial control of supply and demand, but it has a lasting effect.

If I had to put my finger on the specific valuation, it is probably due to the volatile nature of Entertainment. Properties are only as important as their consistent drawing power. Overall, any film (or TV) property's net worth is going to be depreciable to some extent. The lower valuation might also say something to the fact that the properties are probably undervalued in Fox's hands. Hence the volatility. We'll call that the Fantastic Four effect. Take how valued the Alien and Predator properties were in the late 80's vs. today.

The Star Wars home distribution rights are another example. Another studio could in theory buy those, but that contract expires in a little more than 2 years for the majority of the films. Which leaves very little time for a worth while ROI. So the net worth is only going to be positive to certain parties. The fact that a portion of licensing also gets paid to Disney also undermines its worth to anyone other than Disney. Buying Marvel & LucasFilm at the times that Iger did was a very, very strategic long term play. Disney may be falling into a situation that ends up being crucially strategic merely by chance.


The most interesting part to me is that no NDA has been signed and no books have been briefed
I think one word may sum up the whole situation. Stalemate. IF the situation actually is what many may suspect it is with respect to the Marvel film rights (and that is probably the crux of the negotiations), then Disney is the one in the driver's seat. In respect to any deal between Disney & Fox, financials and NDA's wouldn't exactly be necessary as Disney wouldn't be buying the studio operations or the whole company. Just certain properties and rights. Many of which Disney is probably already privy to.

If you are right and the movie rights are not transferable on a sale (which I doubt), then Disney has a major advantage here and really only needs to purchase Avatar and SW from a content perspective
It's certainly possible. It could explain why Disney doesn't appear to be a rush to get a deal done when Fox certainly appears to be willing to do one. Assuming that Disney is in the position that I suspect they may be in, they don't even need to rush in on for parts like Avatar. Fox would have to satisfy Disney in certain regards otherwise they'd be running the risk of losing a considerable amount of valuation in regards to a deal.

Likewise, with this guy today suggesting that Disney could look at TWX if that deal falls through (which is a much better and stronger play for Disney), they would really only need DC, HB, and HP from a content perspective. Everything else would be nice to have.
While it would be interesting for them to get DC, I just don't see that passing the muster of regulatory review. Though right now, unless at&t makes some sort of agreement to satisfy the DOJ or beats them in court, the possibility of their deal with Time Warner falling apart is very real. If that happens, expect to see Comcast make a play for certain parts of Time Warner.

So if the F4 rights are nontransferable, that explains why Disney is slow to buy the rights. They are probably just trying to wait it out. Does that include X-men as well?
My understanding from the bits and pieces I've picked up is that yes, that does include the X-Men. It is a typical licensing clause. Fox would have had no reason to not agree to it, even with Marvel in the shape that they were. Which is why it is such a big deal. If that one clause exists then Fox stands to lose a lot of money if they can't come to an agreement with Disney and they sell their studio to someone else.


This whole ordeal basically rests on whether or not the Marvel properties are transferable. My interpretation merely rests on how Disney is reacting to the situation. Considering the amount of potential that exists (along with resolution to many outstanding issues with Marvel and LucasFilm properties), it makes no sense whatsoever for Disney NOT to be aggressive in getting a deal done. This is a company that really doesn't screw around. That they seem to be in no rush to get this done just doesn't add up. Marvel for example has paid for itself nearly 3x over already. That they wouldn't pursue that part alone and make more money is again something that just doesn't add up.

What would be the ultimate form of irony though, if this truly ends up hinging on the Marvel contracts. Fox bought the film rights to X-Men for a pittance. They knew Marvel was desperate and preyed on them. I can't fault them for doing that though as business can be cutthroat after all. If the sale of Fox's entertainment empire hinged on that contract and on that one transferable clause. That Fox would in the end be boxed in by its own hubris. Oh my the irony :cwink:
 
Indeed. I’ve been finding the whole thing interesting.
 
As I've been saying for a while. In time, everything will return to Marvel.
 
What if Marvel get Fox but their new streaming service is gutted by Comcast in retaliation since net neutrality is going away?
 
I'm not sure on the rights not being transferable. I was inclined to think that as long as whoever buys Fox movies keeps the studio intact and running any licences they currently hold would remain valid. If they close the studio though that's another matter. Current contracts should be dust as '20th Century Fox' would cease to exist.

However...Even though they were a bit clueless in the 90's Marvel would surely have had the foresight to make sure that properties they were selling off to various companies couldn't be picked up wholesale by Time Warner (obviously holding all things DC) later on. With that in mind there might be a clause covering the transfer of studio ownership, if that were to happen.

Unfortunately there's no way to know for sure at this time, so I'd temper expectations on that front.
 
As I've been saying for a while. In time, everything will return to Marvel.

I agree. CBM are hot now, but eventually even GA will slowly get tired of this genre and Fox (and other studios) won't be able to keep churning out movies and sequels in an attempt to renew the licensing rights. Even if it will take another 50 years, Marvel will be able to get back all their rights someday.
 
While it would be interesting for them to get DC, I just don't see that passing the muster of regulatory review. Though right now, unless at&t makes some sort of agreement to satisfy the DOJ or beats them in court, the possibility of their deal with Time Warner falling apart is very real. If that happens, expect to see Comcast make a play for certain parts of Time Warner.

It would be scrutinized, but it wouldn't be blocked based on market share of a sub genre of books and publishing.

I'm not sure on the rights not being transferable. I was inclined to think that as long as whoever buys Fox movies keeps the studio intact and running any licences they currently hold would remain valid. If they close the studio though that's another matter. Current contracts should be dust as '20th Century Fox' would cease to exist.

However...Even though they were a bit clueless in the 90's Marvel would surely have had the foresight to make sure that properties they were selling off to various companies couldn't be picked up wholesale by Time Warner (obviously holding all things DC) later on. With that in mind there might be a clause covering the transfer of studio ownership, if that were to happen.

Unfortunately there's no way to know for sure at this time, so I'd temper expectations on that front.

I think I am going to make a thread for us to talk about the spiderman Marvel-Sony contract where, among other things, it is explicitly called out that Sony can transfer the rights to Time Warner. Would such a thread be of interest to people here? I will include the link to the contracts and a summary of each of them.
 
I agree. CBM are hot now, but eventually even GA will slowly get tired of this genre and Fox (and other studios) won't be able to keep churning out movies and sequels in an attempt to renew the licensing rights. Even if it will take another 50 years, Marvel will be able to get back all their rights someday.

The GA already are. Justice League and X-Men: Apocalypse underperformed. The days when Suicide Squad could not just turn a profit but become a massive hit are over. Justice League should be an easy billion but audiences didn't care for it as much as they really should have.

The superhero films which people are paying to see are ones like Logan, Wonder Woman and all three Marvel Studios films which were all critically acclaimed. At this point in time, people don't care about superheroes, they care about good movies. The bubble burst and DC are going to need to be careful how they proceed since they're being buried by Marvel's superior products.

And if Disney buy Fox, that means we'll only be getting these types of films from three studios and two of them will likely be releasing films of dubious quality. If Venom and Silver and Black both flop (and I doubt that Sony knows what it's doing), I expect Marvel to get the full Spider-Man rights back.
 
I think I am going to make a thread for us to talk about the spiderman Marvel-Sony contract where, among other things, it is explicitly called out that Sony can transfer the rights to Time Warner. Would such a thread be of interest to people here? I will include the link to the contracts and a summary of each of them.

I'd be interested for one.
 
BTW, Disney's 10K report filed today mentions that they have a right to buy MLB's ~15% and NHL's ~9% in Bamtech. MLB/NHL also have the option to sell it to Disney if they want to. The former with a price tag from 563MM to 1.042B (earliest they can buy them is 5 years after the acquisition date and latest is 10 years after the acquisition date). The latter, they can buy them in 2020 or 2021 for a price that can be 300MM, 350MM, or 500MM depending on the year and who initiates it, I believe.

That implies Disney is very bullish about DTC. They need this to succeed, and they will need more content to put on "Disneyflix".
 
That implies Disney is very bullish about DTC. They need this to succeed, and they will need more content to put on "Disneyflix".

I'm curious in how this thing will be branded and how the FOX content, if a deal is consummated, may fit. The X-Men and FF (yeesh) flicks from FOX would fit neatly into the Marvel Studios offerings. Avatar and Home Alone complement films from Lucasfilm and Disney Studios.

But The Simpsons and Futurama don't exactly scream Disney and then you've got the Alien and the Apes films. Is that what folks want in a Disney branded streaming service? Providing something that appeals to all viewers may turn off those strictly looking for Disney branded content.
 
I'm curious in how this thing will be branded and how the FOX content, if a deal is consummated, may fit. The X-Men and FF (yeesh) flicks from FOX would fit neatly into the Marvel Studios offerings. Avatar and Home Alone complement films from Lucasfilm and Disney Studios.

But The Simpsons and Futurama don't exactly scream Disney and then you've got the Alien and the Apes films. Is that what folks want in a Disney branded streaming service? Providing something that appeals to all viewers may turn off those strictly looking for Disney branded content.
Undoubtedly any Fox studios would be rebranded to an extend under Disney. Mostly because 21st Century Fox will in all likelihood retain sole ownership over the "Fox" brand.

Fox Searchlight Pictures, would probably just become Searchlight Pictures. Something to make it distinct from Fox's remaining "Fox" branded properties. Heck, maybe they'll call them "Hound". :gngl:
 
BTW, Disney's 10K report filed today mentions that they have a right to buy MLB's ~15% and NHL's ~9% in Bamtech. MLB/NHL also have the option to sell it to Disney if they want to. The former with a price tag from 563MM to 1.042B (earliest they can buy them is 5 years after the acquisition date and latest is 10 years after the acquisition date). The latter, they can buy them in 2020 or 2021 for a price that can be 300MM, 350MM, or 500MM depending on the year and who initiates it, I believe.
I'm curious as to whether Disney may try to keep the leagues invested in it. It would help with their negotiations for streaming rights to use on the ESPN app, as the leagues would have an invested interest. Though that could also raise conflict of interest accusations. So will be interesting to see how that plays out.

That implies Disney is very bullish about DTC. They need this to succeed, and they will need more content to put on "Disneyflix".
I believe Disney top brass are now recognizing what many consumers have know for years now. What floors me the most is how long many of these companies have resisted this technology rather than find a way to embrace it. Though that is also demonstrative as to why they fear the tech titans and why some analysts are so bullish on them.

Netflix really changed the game on two fronts. First with their streaming tech which really popularized the concept, and then when they started getting their own original content, completely bypassing the old guard. That is why I'm not too worried about consolidation amongst the "Big 6" traditional studios. Netflix has proved that you can compete with them in a completely nontraditional way.
 
I'm curious in how this thing will be branded and how the FOX content, if a deal is consummated, may fit. The X-Men and FF (yeesh) flicks from FOX would fit neatly into the Marvel Studios offerings. Avatar and Home Alone complement films from Lucasfilm and Disney Studios.

But The Simpsons and Futurama don't exactly scream Disney and then you've got the Alien and the Apes films. Is that what folks want in a Disney branded streaming service? Providing something that appeals to all viewers may turn off those strictly looking for Disney branded content.

Touchstone pictures would seem to be a suitable compliment for things like Apes, Alien etc?

Undoubtedly any Fox studios would be rebranded to an extend under Disney. Mostly because 21st Century Fox will in all likelihood retain sole ownership over the "Fox" brand.

Fox Searchlight Pictures, would probably just become Searchlight Pictures. Something to make it distinct from Fox's remaining "Fox" branded properties. Heck, maybe they'll call them "Hound". :gngl:

I'd imagine whoever bought the studio, assuming the movies/tv are not simply absorbed into the buyers existing studios, would have to change the name of the main and any related studios under the 'Fox' banner, which as a brand would continue under the Dark Lord Murdock in news & sports etc. '21st Century Fox' could just drop the 'Fox' from it's title, like your example with Searchlight.
 
I'm curious in how this thing will be branded and how the FOX content, if a deal is consummated, may fit. The X-Men and FF (yeesh) flicks from FOX would fit neatly into the Marvel Studios offerings. Avatar and Home Alone complement films from Lucasfilm and Disney Studios.

But The Simpsons and Futurama don't exactly scream Disney and then you've got the Alien and the Apes films. Is that what folks want in a Disney branded streaming service? Providing something that appeals to all viewers may turn off those strictly looking for Disney branded content.

This would be easy to fix. Have the content divided into categories or folders type things. I'm sure they could figure that out. They could even have it that parents could choose only content from certain 'studios' was accessible on a kid's profile etc
 
I agree. CBM are hot now, but eventually even GA will slowly get tired of this genre and Fox (and other studios) won't be able to keep churning out movies and sequels in an attempt to renew the licensing rights. Even if it will take another 50 years, Marvel will be able to get back all their rights someday.

Well I'd prefer it happens before I die. :cwink:
 
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