The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 4

[Zarex]

I don't think anything is done on this front. Fox is not a fledgling studio that is going to get bought out or give away a valuable IP for free. These negotiations are going to go the eleventh hour. I agree the the FF stock will plummet if Fox waits 6.99 years before trying to sell it. But there will be a window there, when Disney is ready to announce a PIV slate and the Mouse is left scratching its head when Cap/Iron Man/Thor/Hulk are suddenly shelved for the time being. That's when the FF will have the most value to them, and that's when the deal will get done. Right now, there is no need to announce PIV for another two years at least. I expect the deal to get done but only when its time for Disney to take action. It won't be at this summer's CC.

So FOX won't give anything away for free. But Disney, a company three times as large, gave away X-Men TV rights for a minority stake in "Legion" and "Hellfire"? Do you see how silly that is?

And I doubt the Mouse, a studio where four of their last five films are billion dollar franchises, are going to be left scratching anything. When they had problems with Inhumans they plugged in Indiana Freakin Jones. Iger would not be sweating the FF, and I'm sure the Murdocks knew that when they agreed to the deal last fall

 

[jaymes_e06]

Marvel still get complete merch rights for any TV partnership. So there's that.

 

[Dark Raven]

So FOX won't give anything away for free. But Disney, a company three times as large, gave away X-Men TV rights for a minority stake in "Legion" and "Hellfire"? Do you see how silly that is?

And I doubt the Mouse, a studio where four of their last five films are billion dollar franchises, are going to be left scratching anything. When they had problems with Inhumans they plugged in Indiana Freakin Jones. Iger would not be sweating the FF, and I'm sure the Murdocks knew that when they agreed to the deal last fall

Not only did Disney give away the X-Men TV rights for free, but also gave Fox the Avengers, and Spider-Man (even though it belongs to Sony). And they gave them back Star Wars too. And also Namor. Oh, and the Incredibles, because Fox don't have enough FF-type of characters.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Here's an example of the kind of deal I can imagine (one of an infinite number of possibilities):

1. Marvel gets nearly complete control of FF characters, but gives Fox producer credit and small percentage of profits for X number of films. After those films have been produced Marvel attains full rights (provided the profit percentage meets a minimum gross dollar amount - if not, Marvel pays enough to bring it to that minimum).

2. Marvel starts creating tie-in merchandising for Fox X-Men films (with toys, T-Shirts, books etc. that feature film characters - as opposed to comic characters). Fox will get a small percentage but Marvel will control what is made.

3. Marvel and Fox will co-produce Fox TV shows.

4. Marvel will begin providing advice in guiding the development of the Fox universe and plan future films in a way that will allow crossovers and also help Fox build a broad and sustainable universe. Cosmic characters like Galactus and Thanos will tie the realities together and characters will be able to cross from one world to the other (similar to Thor traveling between Asgard and Earth).

 

[Flint Marko]

I know that's a pretty realistic deal but I don't want any chance of Fox's continual nonsense destroying the FF brand. I want Marvel to have complete creative and financial control. That's probably asking for too much at this point, but it's how I feel. I'm still somewhat wary of Sony mucking up the Spider-man brand, and I trust Sony far more than I do Fox... and that's saying something considering how much I don't trust Sony.

 

[Zarex]

We've discussed this before, Willie, and I personally think the deal will be (or is) less complicated. And I think it is going to be awfully difficult for Disney/Marvel to pony up much cash given the state of the franchise and the reboot risk, even within the MCU. But this is certainly a reasonable option.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Sony is worse thsn Fox... MIB V 21JS... WTAF?

 

[Tilapia]

They already have: TV show rights for X-Men spin offs. Not so long ago Disney doing anything to strengthen Fox's hold over any Marvel rights was unthinkable, but something changed after FFINO crashed & burned in spectacular fashion.

The question is: What did Fox have to hand over in return for that? FF is one option, the distribution rights for Star Wars IV: ANH is another. Perhaps both were on the table since neither is worth much to Fox on their own.

Bottom line: One way or another Fox gave up something significant to get that TV deal. The Mouse wouldn't have granted that for nothing.

TV shows? Legion? Some ****ed up crazy kid that will be called "a mutant" who won't have any connection to the films. Or Hellfire Club? A 60's throwback with some sex appeal for the older FX viewers. Think they can use one of those after Nip/Tuck. Sounds like Marvel forked over a lot there. Unless key mutants that appeared in X-Men movies are getting an actual series, the TV shows are irrelevant. If Havoc or Emma Frost was headlining the series, it's a different ball game, but that's not going to happen by the sound of it.

Imaginative guys, but come back to reality.

 

[Val_Zod]

TV shows? Legion? Some ****ed up crazy kid that will be called "a mutant" who won't have any connection to the films. Or Hellfire Club? A 60's throwback with some sex appeal for the older FX viewers. Think they can use one of those after Nip/Tuck. Sounds like Marvel forked over a lot there. Unless key mutants that appeared in X-Men movies are getting an actual series, the TV shows are irrelevant.

Imaginative guys, but come back to reality.

Marvel has no reason to help Fox flood the increasingly crowded TV sphere, while also strengthening Fox's hold on the Xmen through TV. Marvel certainly got something in return to give away a strong bargaining chip to a rival studio concerning THEIR property.

 

[Tilapia]

You're not strengthening your X-Men brand if the TV series has absolutely nothing to do with your well established movie universe. It's more like an, "I'll scratch your back," sort of deal. Fox could have forked over some money or advertising space to pay for it. I'm sure Marvel put some stipulations in there that the TV shows had to be separate from the films.

FX can't afford Rose Byrne anymore so that was never an option. But clearly, I don't see why Legion couldn't have been a bastard son of McAvoy, who makes a pilot appearance or has a reoccurring role. I understand that they don't want to undermine the continuity of the films further, but that's a huge marketing ploy.

FX has a smaller and more refined demo than the flagship Fox network station, so you don't need to overload your dramas with characters like say Gotham. However, I would have tagged Emma Frost for Hellfire, or at least let rumors fly to build buzz. For Legion, there would be many cameo opportunities, even though it doesn't need to tie into the X-Men narrative. That's actually a solid, low key option for bringing X-Men to live action TV on FX. Disney isn't giving much up at all in that regard.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Marvel has no reason to help Fox flood the increasingly crowded TV sphere, while also strengthening Fox's hold on the Xmen through TV. Marvel certainly got something in return to give away a strong bargaining chip to a rival studio concerning THEIR property.

Do you really think that would be enough for them to relinquish all withholding rights to FF to Marvel.....?

 

[Raiden]

Do you really think that would be enough for them to relinquish all withholding rights to FF to Marvel.....?

At this point, it is an impasse between the two studios. In fact, I think Fox needs more from Marvel than vise versa, since Marvel had to green light the TV shows for X-Men and holds the merchandising rights. FF may not go back to Marvel, but it's a waiting game that Marvel will ultimately win in the end.

 

[jaymes_e06]

I agree with all of that I'm just saying to the anyone that feels that way (not even saying anyone does) but that would be niave thinking imo. The most anyone could hope for in the short term would be a collaborative effort. If Fox play the waiting game holding a loosing hand it won't be a good idea.

 

[Zarex]

Do you really think that would be enough for them to relinquish all withholding rights to FF to Marvel.....?

It certainly looks lopsided from the perspective of a comic book fan. But from the viewpoint of somebody trying to run a business it's a slam dunk for Mr. Murdock. In over a decade since the deal was signed, FOX hasn't earned a dime on the FF franchise.

Add up the $80 M plus loss for FFINO, the loss on ROTSS and the modest return on Story's first film and FOX has been bleeding money on this franchise for over a decade. But 21st Century is going to cling to it just to spite the Mouse - their corporate partner in the X-Men TV shows and the just announced HULU streaming mini bundle? It makes absolutely no sense.

The only value the FF has to FOX is in what they could get get from Disney, and X-Men brand extension is a good deal. FOX could see tens of millions annually in streaming fees alone from the HULU venture, money they couldn't wring out of the FF if they held onto the rights until the heat death of the universe. Again, it's a no brainer.

 

[jaymes_e06]

This is the same company who refused to give two characters they had no plans of using in any time in the near future rather than give into Marvel's demands. A tv rights deal trading a property that not only carry the rights of FF but also it's very important rogues gallery for tv rights that may or may not prove fruitful is ludicrous and terrible business decision. I hope none of you thinking this is a sound business move are in charge of large corporation.

 

[Zarex]

This is the same company who refused to give two characters they had no plans of using in any time in the near future rather than give into Marvel's demands. A tv rights deal trading a property that not only carry the rights of FF but also it's very important rogues gallery for tv rights that may or may not prove fruitful is ludicrous and terrible business decision. I hope none of you thinking this is a sound business move are in charge of large corporation.

Actually FOX did have plans to use the Surfer and Galactus eventually in the FF franchise, which is why they were reluctant to give them up in exchange for a franchise they were apparently lukewarm on anyhow. Anyhoo, you don't need to run a large corporation to understand that a deal in which you get something of value in exchange for something of no value is a good one. It's just common sense.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Actually FOX did have plans to use the Surfer and Galactus eventually in the FF franchise, which is why they were reluctant to give them up in exchange for a franchise they were apparently lukewarm on anyhow. Anyhoo, you don't need to run a large corporation to understand that a deal in which you get something of value in exchange for something of no value is a good one. It's just common sense.

Link please?

I don't think they had plans for Galactus as a production company maybe some of the writers they hired (I know one did:http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/fa...ie-we-couldve-had-galactus-mole-man-and-more/) wanted to use him but Fox always wanted to do everything on the cheap from the beginning and making a threat like that work for as small of a scope as they were going for wouldn't have made sense.

From what I understood the negative Zone would not have involved Galactus or SS at all. They left an easter Egg but chickened out. They never even mentioned him for the aforementioned crossover with the X-Men that thank goodness for Jesus will never see the light of day.

 

[TheVileOne]

I just find it hard to believe Fox was willing to give up FF rights just for X-Men TV rights.

 

[Dasher10]

No way, no RDJ cuts the box office by at least 33%, and that will be evident when the Civil War tally doubles up TWS tally. Also expect Homecoming to get bumped an additional 100 to 150 on top of ASM2 numbers, just for the RDJ effect. Those characters will have to be retired for a while. I feel only Hulk and Thor are recastable, with Stark/Cap probably retiring or killed off in Infinity War (I'd imagine Cap bites it).

Back to FF, I don't feel like Fox will want to co-produce a FF film with Marvel if its Fox footing a significant portion of the bill. It will have to be an all or nothing deal. Marvel giving up X-Men merchandising, or some lump sum payment. The reason I feel this way is because FF is of no value to Fox, but it is of every value to Disney.

And frankly, the X-Men do not need the MCU in any way shape or form. It's a totally different animal than Sony/Spidey, as Fox has a self contained franchise that will continue to expand. Fox/X-Men control their own destiny, while Spidey/Sony needed Iron Man and Co. to leech on to for a couple films or so. FF is the biggest bargaining chip Fox has to extract resources from Disney and supplement X-Men and other IPs. Disney will have to fork something, or wait another seven years and play chicken. The longer Fox holds, the more valuable the FF become, even though that FF "stock" is currently in the dirt for the time being.

1. There is no way that Marvel give up X-Men merch. They just started producing shirts again and rereleased the Deadpool video game + this would mean no more X-Men comics, even as collected editions. That's a terrible idea.

2. Marvel will just recast because they still have Iron Man and Captain America stories to tell.

 

[Orba]

There does seem to be little else that Fox could have given for the X-Men TV rights, ANH would be too much and Disney is not short of cash. It does leave us with the F4 rights which it seems highly unlikely Fox will ever try to use again, the franchise has been a money pit for them with ever dropping box office and cinema audiences.

I do think it could be theoretically possible Fox for to recover the F4 franchise and get it back on the straight and narrow. But for them to do it Fox would have to be willing to make the next film with a commitment I don't see them willing to make. Fox would need to be willing to go all in with a serious budget, they couldn't hold back. And Fox would need to do it knowing that no matter how good the film they make is they will probably lose money on it. The brand is so toxic in Fox's hands that they would need a great film just to repair the public perception so that they could start to make money on its sequel. And after making a loss of up to $100M on FFINO it ain't happening.

 

[Spiderine]

If Fox wants to build and expand its Xverse which is far more valuable to them they need to work with Marvel. The FF brand is worthless to them. How could they possibly make another film? They can't recover from the damage. They can't cross it over with Xmen. Any deal at this point is the only logical choice.

 

[Dark Raven]

Fox making another FF movie and hoping to do better next time (after having become toxic and had 3 movies which haven't been well received) is like a man trying to win a woman over when she already doesn't like him, but he has also made several botched attempts with her before which has soured her even further on him. Maybe before his first attempt, she was a little unsure or indifferent but was willing to give him a chance. But after he's already proven 3 times that he doesn't know how to treat her and simply treats her like dirt, why would she give him yet another chance?

You couldn't argue that, just because she's averse towards him, she therefore is done with all men or done with any of these romantic gestures. But it's not all men - just that particular man and any romantic gestures specifically from him. They will not win her over but will have the opposite effect and instead make him even more toxic towards her. It's best to quit while he's ahead before she takes out a restraining order.

And that's what Fox is like with the public. It can't woo the public anymore with further FF movies. It's not that they don't necessarily want anymore FF movies (even if they think they might not at the moment). It's that they don't want anymore from Fox. Anything Fox does with the FF will simply worsen the situation until the public will demand a restraining order on Fox making anymore FF movies. In fact, we should be demanding one right now after the FFINO abomination.

 

[Tilapia]

1. There is no way that Marvel give up X-Men merch. They just started producing shirts again and rereleased the Deadpool video game + this would mean no more X-Men comics, even as collected editions. That's a terrible idea.

2. Marvel will just recast because they still have Iron Man and Captain America stories to tell.

RDJ will never be recasted until it's time to reboot the MCU. No doubt in my mind. He's your Harrison Ford, or Sly Stallone. He will keep making cameo appearances in this continuity as he gets older. At some point he will stop dawning the armor (which is why IM3 didn't make a lot of sense in that regard). Why would you even need to put on the suit if they can be robots?

 

[Zarex]

I just find it hard to believe Fox was willing to give up FF rights just for X-Men TV rights.

The X-Men TV rights could put tens of millions of dollars in streaming fees into FOX's coffers annually. That ain't a bad return in exchange for a franchise that hasn't earned you a dime in well over a decade.

And it may be helpful to look at prior deals in attempting to gauge the value of the FF. In 2010 Disney sold Power Rangers, a much more successful franchise than the FF, to Saban for $43 Million. That price included broadcast rights, film rights and extremely valuable merchandising rights.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/disneys-q3-boosted-tv-operations-26507


In 2009 Nickelodeon bought the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Franchise from the Mirage Group for $60 Million. Again, the price included broadcast, merchandise and film rights.

http://variety.com/2009/film/markets-festivals/ninja-turtles-move-to-nickelodeon-1118010193/

If FOX could turn the early reversion of the FF cinematic licensing agreement into TV rights to the very successful X-Men franchise, they have made an excellent deal.

 

[Flint Marko]

This is the same company who refused to give two characters they had no plans of using in any time in the near future rather than give into Marvel's demands. A tv rights deal trading a property that not only carry the rights of FF but also it's very important rogues gallery for tv rights that may or may not prove fruitful is ludicrous and terrible business decision. I hope none of you thinking this is a sound business move are in charge of large corporation.

You are correct in that they had no plans to use Silver Surfer or Galactus, but you're ignoring the fact that the IP is now pretty much worthless in Fox's hands. So it really wouldn't be the worst business decision given how much money they'be lost on their piss-poor efforts to adapt the property.