The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 4

[ernesth100]

I think it all depends on how Apocolypse does in comparison to Civil War.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I do think it could be theoretically possible Fox for to recover the F4 franchise and get it back on the straight and narrow. But for them to do it Fox would have to be willing to make the next film with a commitment I don't see them willing to make. Fox would need to be willing to go all in with a serious budget, they couldn't hold back. And Fox would need to do it knowing that no matter how good the film they make is they will probably lose money on it. The brand is so toxic in Fox's hands that they would need a great film just to repair the public perception so that they could start to make money on its sequel. And after making a loss of up to $100M on FFINO it ain't happening.

Three years ago (and I made this argument on these boards) all Fox needed to do was start with a good script, hire a talented director who knew and understood and respected the source material, give that director a decent budget, and there's not any reason that Fox couldn't have made the best superhero film ever. I can see it in my head - an FF film with adventure and intrigue and spectacular visuals that goes above and beyond anything we've seen from Marvel, Sony or WB.

But I think that's nearly impossible now. After this last effort the feelings people like us have goes beyond distrust. I am angry and bitter and the thought of Fox touching this property again makes me furious.

How can Fox possibly win the trust of people like me (the people who I believe will make or break any future efforts)?

I believe the only possible way is to have Marvel's name attached.

If Fox tries to go it alone again on FF, the project would never get off the ground. If the last film had "bad buzz" imagine another effort. Fox has made enemies of Fantastic Four fans and you can't produce a product and expect your customer base to buy it if that customer base hates you and has zero faith in your ability to produce a quality product that they want to buy.

Fox needs the fans to at least be open minded - as I was three years ago - and the ONLY way I can imagine that happening is with Marvel as a partner.

 

[Mike5575]

No way, no RDJ cuts the box office by at least 33%, and that will be evident when the Civil War tally doubles up TWS tally. Also expect Homecoming to get bumped an additional 100 to 150 on top of ASM2 numbers, just for the RDJ effect. Those characters will have to be retired for a while. I feel only Hulk and Thor are recastable, with Stark/Cap probably retiring or killed off in Infinity War (I'd imagine Cap bites it).

Back to FF, I don't feel like Fox will want to co-produce a FF film with Marvel if its Fox footing a significant portion of the bill. It will have to be an all or nothing deal. Marvel giving up X-Men merchandising, or some lump sum payment. The reason I feel this way is because FF is of no value to Fox, but it is of every value to Disney.

And frankly, the X-Men do not need the MCU in any way shape or form. It's a totally different animal than Sony/Spidey, as Fox has a self contained franchise that will continue to expand. Fox/X-Men control their own destiny, while Spidey/Sony needed Iron Man and Co. to leech on to for a couple films or so. FF is the biggest bargaining chip Fox has to extract resources from Disney and supplement X-Men and other IPs. Disney will have to fork something, or wait another seven years and play chicken. The longer Fox holds, the more valuable the FF become, even though that FF "stock" is currently in the dirt for the time being.

Marvel has proven that they don't need RDJ or Iron Man to make money. All you need to do is look at the box office of Ant-Man and GOTG. The combined total of both movies actually exceeds Iron Man 3, and if you ask me, that film was Iron Man's peak. It was Marvel's first film coming off of The Avengers. I seriously doubt another Iron Man film would make that kind of money again. Ant-Man and Guardians sequels will make at least $700m and $800m respectively. That's more than enough to make up for Iron Man's absence. On top of that, we're also getting the Inhumans...

 

[wobbly]

The X-Men TV rights could put tens of millions of dollars in streaming fees into FOX's coffers annually. That ain't a bad return in exchange for a franchise that hasn't earned you a dime in well over a decade.

And it may be helpful to look at prior deals in attempting to gauge the value of the FF. In 2010 Disney sold Power Rangers, a much more successful franchise than the FF, to Saban for $43 Million. That price included broadcast rights, film rights and extremely valuable merchandising rights.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/disneys-q3-boosted-tv-operations-26507

In 2009 Nickelodeon bought the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Franchise from the Mirage Group for $60 Million. Again, the price included broadcast, merchandise and film rights.

http://variety.com/2009/film/markets-festivals/ninja-turtles-move-to-nickelodeon-1118010193/

If FOX could turn the early reversion of the FF cinematic licensing agreement into TV rights to the very successful X-Men franchise, they have made an excellent deal.

The 'Terminator' rights, another world famous property, were sold for less than $30mil iirc.

Anyone thinking the FF movie rights, as they stand under Fox, are worth more is kidding themselves.

Fox handing them back for the TV deal (and Disney not deliberately marginalising X-Men merchandising in future) would be a more than reasonable deal imo.

 

[Web-Head]

If the rights to Terminator were sold for < than 30 million than it would be smart for Disney to buy the rights. They'd make that money back in 3 hours lol.

 

[Zarex]

If the rights to Terminator were sold for < than 30 million than it would be smart for Disney to buy the rights. They'd make that money back in 3 hours lol.

There was a ticking clock on the rights that helped keep the price down. The franchise reverts back to creator James Cameron in 2019

http://deadline.com/2013/06/megan-a...-paying-the-rest-to-bring-arnold-back-521214/

 

[jaymes_e06]

You are correct in that they had no plans to use Silver Surfer or Galactus, but you're ignoring the fact that the IP is now pretty much worthless in Fox's hands. So it really wouldn't be the worst business decision given how much money they'be lost on their piss-poor efforts to adapt the property.

Fair enough but you aren't seeing that because they have Galactus and SS they still hold the upper hand as they could feasible do a SS film in the next seven years and have the FF cameo in it as his protagonists it would virtually solve their issues.

They aren't stupid. That's why they didn't give them up before. They knew Disney though they could and did far superior to Fox efforts could not integrate DDs more mature themes in their more family friendly company outlook.

While comparatively with FF they would do far more of a dent against them. They will wait them out if need be because of the reasons stated if Marvel didn't give a good deal just that simple.

 

[Zarex]

Fair enough but you aren't seeing that because they have Galactus and SS they still hold the upper hand as they could feasible do a SS film in the next seven years and have the FF cameo in it as his protagonists it would virtually solve their issues.

It answers many of the questions, except for "Who the hell is going to see that movie?", "Why are we flushing money down the toilet on this?", "Why aren't we working out a deal that can actually make us money?" and "Why do we keep trying to pi** off Marvel fans?"

 

[jaymes_e06]

It answers many of the questions, except for "Who the hell is going to see that movie?", "Why are we flushing money down the toilet on this?", "Why aren't we working out a deal that can actually make us money?" and "Why do we keep trying to pi** off Marvel fans?"

If it was well concieved they might feel it to be a better move than just "oh your letting us have rights we should have already that might not pan out for us here yah go take all our cookies" approach you think is more wise...

 

[Flint Marko]

I'd love for someone to go in to Fox and pitch another film based on any character related to the FF, they'd be laughed out of that room thirty seconds into the pitch.

 

[jaymes_e06]

SS is not merely a "character related to the FF" but yeah thanks for playing...

Also Fox didn't think a Deadpool movie would work maybe going against their instincts is the key to their success.

 

[wobbly]

If it was well concieved they might feel it to be a better move than just "oh your letting us have rights we should have already that might not pan out for us here yah go take all our cookies" approach you think is more wise...

They are not taking all Fox's 'cookies'. Just the ones Fox have chewed up and mangled into worthless mush.

Seriously, the FF under Fox are of what value to them now? Reboot in another 7 years? After the Dark Lord Murdock himself singled out FF's failure that does not seem like a great idea.

They are however a good bargaining chip for Fox to get more out of the cookies they can be more confident they won't fubar.

Both parties, and us fans, can enjoy all the cookies then.

 

[jaymes_e06]

They are not taking all Fox's 'cookies'. Just the ones Fox have chewed up and mangled into worthless mush.

Seriously, the FF under Fox are of what value to them now? Reboot in another 7 years? After the Dark Lord Murdock himself singled out FF's failure that does not seem like a great idea.

They are however a good bargaining chip for Fox to get more out of the cookies they can be more confident they won't fubar.

Both parties, and us fans, can enjoy all the cookies then.

I think I speak for all of us when I say I never want another FF from Fox... just no. But I don't think the rights can be as easily acquired as some are making out to be.

 

[Zarex]

If it was well concieved they might feel it to be a better move than just "oh your letting us have rights we should have already that might not pan out for us here yah go take all our cookies" approach you think is more wise...

Do you actually think that FOX "should have already" had X-Men TV rights if they didn't pay for them? And no one is saying that FOX shouldn't be compensated for early release of the FF live action rights. But I suspect the compensation will be commensurate with the current value of the property based on actual performance.

 

[wobbly]

I think I speak for all of us when I say I never want another FF from Fox... just no. But I don't think the rights can be as easily acquired as some are making out to be.

I would think if a deal has/is/might be made it would involve more than just the TV show thing. Reintroducing merch support for the X-Films (plus the series if there is demand) would be an incentive I think Fox would like for example. A % of gross points for the first Marvel FF film would be another (forget net...no-one sees anything from that if they take it).

Honestly, not so long ago the idea of the Mouse and the Fox dealing at all seemed impossible, but there has obviously been a change and hopefully both Fox and Disney are now open to a deal that everyone can benefit from.

 

[Flint Marko]

SS is not merely a "character related to the FF" but yeah thanks for playing...

Best of luck explaining to the 60 year old executives at Fox how the CG character used in their last franchise-killing Fantastic Four debacle is worth another effort.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Do you actually think that FOX "should have already" had X-Men TV rights if they didn't pay for them? And no one is saying that FOX shouldn't be compensated for early release of the FF live action rights. But I suspect the compensation will be commensurate with the current value of the property based on actual performance.

I think Fox feels that way which was why I put quotes around that to signify it.

They technically have all live action rights meaning they have it even in tv technically, however, they do have to have permission to distribute a tv series so they might feel Marvel have been blocking them in a way. That is why Mutant X happened and was stopped by Fox.

I think the new tv rights are truly a way for Marvel to extend an olive brach for the bad blood Mutant X created with an option of getting FF rights depending on some other stipulation yet to be seen.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Best of luck explaining to the 60 year old executives at Fox how the CG character used in their last franchise-killing Fantastic Four debacle is worth another effort.

Done.

 

[Zarex]

I think Fox feels that way which was why I put quotes around that to signify it.

They technically have all live action rights meaning they have it even in tv technically, however, they do have to have permission to distribute a tv series so they might feel Marvel have been blocking them in a way. That is why Mutant X happened and was stopped by Marvel.

I think the new tv rights are truly a way for Marvel to extend an olive brach for the bad blood Mutant X created with an option of getting FF rights depending on some other stipulation yet to be seen.

Mutant X was produced by Marvel along with Tribune Entertainment. FOX tried to stop it and failed. FOX sued, and Marvel and FOX settled on the case at a later date.

http://openjurist.org/277/f3d/253/twentieth-v-marvel

 

[jaymes_e06]

I know I fixed it in my op right before you posted. It still created a divide which has yet to be amended which was my main point.

 

[Zarex]

I know I fixed it in my op right before you posted. It still created a divide which has yet to be amended which was my main point.

If Disney and FOX ain't best buds they are at least on speaking terms. In addition to the TV deal, Disney went all out in its Deadpool promotion, including Pool in its Hot Topics merchandise line and featuring Wade in a commercial for Contest of Champions. And just this week the two decided to team up on a Hulu mini-bundle streaming package.

http://deadline.com/2016/05/disney-fox-hulu-streaming-service-fight-cable-1201747498/

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Done.

But if Fox had any interest in doing a big-budget cosmic film, why didn't they just do that with the FF?

Fox seems very risk averse. They either want to make X-Men films that they know have a large following and guaranteed minimum BO, or they want to do FF and Deadpool on the cheap to reduce risk.

Silver Surfer would be a huge risk because not only would it require a big-budget to do right, but he doesn't have nearly the fan-base of FF.

FF had (prior to 2005 when Fox first started screwing them up) a huge fan-base that couldn't wait to see them on the big-screen. Silver Surfer has a cult-following at best.

Marvel could almost certainly make a huge blockbuster out of Silver Surfer. Fox hasn't done anything comparable and I'd be surprised if they'd take the risk of trying.

 

[Flint Marko]

Spot on, Willie

 

[Orba]

The problem with going the Silver Surfer route is that he is not a cheap character, a Silver Surfer film would need a major budget. Its basically a film about a character flying through space to alien worlds and fighting aliens, and it would have to be entirely CGI, there is no way to make a good SS film without cutting away much of what makes the character interesting. They could set it all on one planet, they could have him get there on a ship, etc, all things to keep the set/CGI budget down, but if they did it would take away from the fantastical nature of the character.

And as Flint mentioned someone at Fox tried to sell it to their bosses they would have the problem that the character's last screen appearance was with the now toxic F4. Would Fox really want to make a film with a character that the public currently associate with the F4?

 

[Mjölnir]

I don't think a Silver Surfer movie is a smart idea for Fox. It's a CGI character that's not terribly charismatic so I can't really see him as the pillar to base a franchise on. I think he, just like Vision whom he shares some similarities with, makes for a better supporting character.

Add to that the fact that you can't do SS cheap like Deadpool and it seems like quite the risky adventure. Much more so than their attempt to revamp the FF.