The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 6

[First Avenger]

A part of me still keeps thinking about F4 when I hear all these changes and deals.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Hmm... if Fox needs Marvel's approval to change characters, that would imply that Marvel approved Barakapool.

 

[Snaaaaake!]

James Gunn talked about this swap on his Facebook page and in the comments. He said that this kind of thing happens occasionally and is nothing new.

I don't know if this is bad or good then considering the leverage this gives Fox for keeping the rights. But on the other hand deals like this does allow Marvel to give Fox the rope to hang themselves.

So what did Marvel get in return for Fox messing up Viper and Silver Samurai in The Wolverine then?

 

[wobbly]

Hmm... if Fox needs Marvel's approval to change characters, that would imply that Marvel approved Barakapool.

It's possible they did, and Marvel agreed knowing it was a dumb @ss move and how damaging it would be.

 

[wobbly]

I don't know if this is bad or good then considering the leverage this gives Fox for keeping the rights. But on the other hand deals like this does allow Marvel to give Fox the rope to hang themselves.

So what did Marvel get in return for Fox messing up Viper and Silver Samurai in The Wolverine then?

Interesting question. I'm guessing that they might have been able to get away with those changes (and Barackapool perhaps) because they never really named them as those characters on film. ie: In Origins Wade was never actually called 'Deadpool' post transformation, Creed was never called 'Sabretooth', and 'Viper' and 'Silver Samurai' were not named as such in the Wolverine either (iirc).

Though it's obvious in all cases who they were meant to be, there could be sufficient ambiguity left by not naming them to serve as a loophole for change without the need for agreement.

Now 'Teenage Negasonic Warhead' was a very specific name they wanted to use for Deadpool. As such they had to either follow her power set as played out in the comics, or get approval for change which in this case resulted in a trade.

 

[Zarex]

I believe that Wade was labeled as "The Deadpool" whilst undergoing his transformation. But Marvel agreed to those changes before Marvel Studios and the Disney buyout. Gambit could have been re-imagined as a street talkin' penguin with a flatulence problem and Avi Arad would have given the alterations the thumbs up.

The Viper and Silver Samurai were part of the Japan Saga on which the film was based and were sorta/kinda identifiable as their comic book counterparts. So Marvel may have had to give those changes a pass.

So now that we know the price for altering the powers of a minor character was a living planet, are we still holding to the notion that the price for the X-Men TV rights was a warm handshake and/or an awkward hug?

 

[Stark Bauer]

If Marvel can get the rights back for Silver Surfer

I would like to a see a Silver Surfer movie written by Terry Gilliam

And directed by Zack Snyder

 

[ehh]

Anyone else get the feeling that Guardians of the Galaxy only got made because Marvel didn't have the rights to Fantastic 4?

 

[Web-Head]

Anyone else get the feeling that Guardians of the Galaxy only got made because Marvel didn't have the rights to Fantastic 4?

I've thought that, yeah. But I don't think it's the only reason.

 

[ADollarADay]

Correct. Fox got really, really lucky with Deadpool. A small part of me wishes the footage never leaked so their Marvel slate would be that much weaker.

Part of me agrees with you, the other part though thinks that current Marvel would not have released a rated R movie. I'm not sure they will release one any time soon, which is sad. Imagine a PG-13 Punisher movie? I would rage. They will go rated R for their TV stuff, but I'm not sure they will for their movies.

So when Feige said nothing had changed, he left out that detail. I wonder if he left out any other details...

Feige would never lie!

In what way is it stupid...?

From my understanding Marvel bought full Spidey merch from Sony for like $200m or so. Meanwhile Spidey's merchandise is said to rake in $1b a year. Marvel and Disney would like to keep it that way. So making this deal reels in Sony from making more crappy films (Sony clearly dodged a bullet with that lame plan of a Sinister Six spin off whether they realized it or not).

So the little that Sony well get every few years from solo Spider-man films while under the MCU is peanuts to Marvel when you think about it. Plus according to Tom Holland revealing how many films he's contracted for, it's not like Marvel Studios won't be benefiting from Spider-man in future MCU movies as well. Therefor, Marvel's got the advantage profit wise as far as this deal goes.

This is also the reason why I can't see Fox and Marvel making the same deal. Many of Fox-Marvel's people (Jackman, Shuler-Donner, Millar, etc.) have been putting it out there to pair up with the MCU years before this Sony deal even happened.

So with that it'll likely be all or nothing.

This always gets derailed, so I'll reply here and we can continue the conversation on PM, if you would like.

The initial amended deal was a win win for both parties. This latest deal was...not so good. Unless this latest deal states that the live film rights will completely revert back to Marvel after a movie trilogy + x amount of animated movies + x amount of exclusive PS4 games (which would easily total over $1B in Sony's coffers), then it's a one sided deal.

Reasons the deal - as we currently know it - benefited Sony more than Marvel:

This is what we know for certain:
- Marvel can use Spiderman in the MCU
- Other MCU characters can appear in the Spiderman solo
- Sony is the distributor for Homecoming and retains all previous SM movie rights they had
- Feige and his team are actually producing the movie, free of charge (possibly only getting a contract pay)
- Disney pays a fee to Sony on the BO gross for solo spiderman movies
- Marvel cannot use spiderman in promo material for MCU movies and on their "MARVEL" logo
- Spiderman game exclusively developed for Sony PS4

This is what's rumored:
- 3 picture deal where spiderman can appear in the MCU and Marvel has creative control
- Multiple games from Marvel to Sony (exclusively)

Deal seems very one sided, in Sony's favor.

Sony gets:
- Spiderman rebooted, made relevant again (I personally think it can do close or over 1B WW) and - if the rumor is true - after 3 movies, Sony can take full control of the character again when it's relevant and at an all time high. Amazing Spiderman 2 made $70MM in profit (including VOD and home distribution) while a way lesser known character in Ant Man made $104MM (before merchandise)
- Ironman and one of the hottest actors reprising his most famous role in the Spiderman movie
- Kevin Feige and his team doing the work, at no extra cost
- Other MCU characters in the spiderman movies, free of royalty charge
- Exclusive Spiderman (and possibly other Marvel characters) for games. This is very beneficial to Sony, and if you remember Kaz Hirai has mentioned that VGs is one of the 3 sony pillars, so one can easily assume VGs is more important to Sony than movies
- Control rights to a Spiderman animated movie that's unrelated to the MCU

Marvel gets:
- Spiderman in the MCU

 

[Flint Marko]

Part of me agrees with you, the other part though thinks that current Marvel would not have released a rated R movie. I'm not sure they will release one any time soon, which is sad. Imagine a PG-13 Punisher movie? I would rage. They will go rated R for their TV stuff, but I'm not sure they will for their movies.

You're correct, Marvel will never make an R-rated movie and Deadpool would not be anywhere near as raunchy or violent if he was at Disney.

 

[wobbly]

I believe that Wade was labeled as "The Deadpool" whilst undergoing his transformation. But Marvel agreed to those changes before Marvel Studios and the Disney buyout. Gambit could have been re-imagined as a street talkin' penguin with a flatulence problem and Avi Arad would have given the alterations the thumbs up.

The Viper and Silver Samurai were part of the Japan Saga on which the film was based and were sorta/kinda identifiable as their comic book counterparts. So Marvel may have had to give those changes a pass.

So now that we know the price for altering the powers of a minor character was a living planet, are we still holding to the notion that the price for the X-Men TV rights was a warm handshake and/or an awkward hug?

Yeah, was thinking about Origins and recall 'Deadpool' being mentioned at some point (before they woke him up I think?).

Viper and Silver Samurai I'm pretty sure were never named though, so it might be Marvel didn't have a say.

And as you say, if changing a named characters powers required a trade (for a cosmic level character no less), the TV show concession must have come at a price. That being said, as Fox still held Ego, and assuming Ego was bundled with the Surfers rights (assumed to have been combined with the FF's), that does mean Fox still has the FF's rights. If the FF and Surfer were still separate contracts he and his rogues would have reverted by now anyway?

 

[Zarex]

And as you say, if changing a named characters powers required a trade (for a cosmic level character no less), the TV show concession must have come at a price. That being said, as Fox still held Ego, and assuming Ego was bundled with the Surfers rights (assumed to have been combined with the FF's), that does mean Fox still has the FF's rights. If the FF and Surfer were still separate contracts he and his rogues would have reverted by now anyway?

The Negasonic/Ego deal had to take place before Deadpool started filming in early 2015, so FOX still held onto the rights to the FF, Surfer, et al at that point in time. I wouldn't be surprised if additional character movement has happened since that point.

The Surfer may be in a similar position to Deadpool in that he is on a separate contract that is linked to the main FF franchise.

 

[wobbly]

You're correct, Marvel will never make an R-rated movie and Deadpool would not be anywhere near as raunchy or violent if he was at Disney.

If he were at Disney I'd imagine they'd go R-Rated on a Netflix series. Since Marvel are into connecting the bigger MCU picture too I'd imagine the meta references, which are half the fun with Deadpool, would be out too.

Deadpool works best in his own bubble really, where the writers can have fun with that stuff.

 

[wobbly]

The Negasonic/Ego deal had to take place before Deadpool started filming in early 2015, so FOX still held onto the rights to the FF, Surfer, et al at that point in time. I wouldn't be surprised if additional character movement has happened since that point.

The Surfer may be in a similar position to Deadpool in that he is on a separate contract that is linked to the main FF franchise.

Ah, had not considered the dates that the Negasonic/Ego deal must have been done. Was oddly thinking of it as being something more recent (bit of a brain fart on my part).

 

[Stark Bauer]

Im posting a redditor's pitch for an MCU Fantastic Four here because i thought it was perfect:

"How would you do an MCU Fantastic Four movie?
u/infinight888 • 20d
I think having them gain their powers by going to space makes too much sense at this point not to do. After Infinity War, the Earth's government will be desperate to find a way of defending itself from alien threats. Have Reed Richards invent the first warp drive, and the Four gain their abilities testing it.

Also, I would call their shuttle The Fantasy, so the media will be calling them The Fantastic Four before they even get their powers."

https://m.reddit.com/r/marvelstudio...urce=amp&utm_medium=comment_list&compact=true

 

[wobbly]

Edit: Original post I was responding to was edited, lol.

Yup. Space origin all the way. Would fit perfectly post Infinity War.

 

[Web-Head]

Im posting a redditor's pitch for an MCU Fantastic Four here because i thought it was perfect:

"How would you do an MCU Fantastic Four movie?
u/infinight888 • 20d
I think having them gain their powers by going to space makes too much sense at this point not to do. After Infinity War, the Earth's government will be desperate to find a way of defending itself from alien threats. Have Reed Richards invent the first warp drive, and the Four gain their abilities testing it.

Also, I would call their shuttle The Fantasy, so the media will be calling them The Fantastic Four before they even get their powers."

https://m.reddit.com/r/marvelstudio...urce=amp&utm_medium=comment_list&compact=true

Sounds great to me.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Part of me agrees with you, the other part though thinks that current Marvel would not have released a rated R movie. I'm not sure they will release one any time soon, which is sad. Imagine a PG-13 Punisher movie? I would rage. They will go rated R for their TV stuff, but I'm not sure they will for their movies.



Feige would never lie!



This always gets derailed, so I'll reply here and we can continue the conversation on PM, if you would like.

The initial amended deal was a win win for both parties. This latest deal was...not so good. Unless this latest deal states that the live film rights will completely revert back to Marvel after a movie trilogy + x amount of animated movies + x amount of exclusive PS4 games (which would easily total over $1B in Sony's coffers), then it's a one sided deal.

Reasons the deal - as we currently know it - benefited Sony more than Marvel:

This is what we know for certain:
- Marvel can use Spiderman in the MCU
- Other MCU characters can appear in the Spiderman solo
- Sony is the distributor for Homecoming and retains all previous SM movie rights they had
- Feige and his team are actually producing the movie, free of charge (possibly only getting a contract pay)
- Disney pays a fee to Sony on the BO gross for solo spiderman movies
- Marvel cannot use spiderman in promo material for MCU movies and on their "MARVEL" logo
- Spiderman game exclusively developed for Sony PS4

This is what's rumored:
- 3 picture deal where spiderman can appear in the MCU and Marvel has creative control
- Multiple games from Marvel to Sony (exclusively)

Deal seems very one sided, in Sony's favor.

Sony gets:
- Spiderman rebooted, made relevant again (I personally think it can do close or over 1B WW) and - if the rumor is true - after 3 movies, Sony can take full control of the character again when it's relevant and at an all time high. Amazing Spiderman 2 made $70MM in profit (including VOD and home distribution) while a way lesser known character in Ant Man made $104MM (before merchandise)
- Ironman and one of the hottest actors reprising his most famous role in the Spiderman movie
- Kevin Feige and his team doing the work, at no extra cost
- Other MCU characters in the spiderman movies, free of royalty charge
- Exclusive Spiderman (and possibly other Marvel characters) for games. This is very beneficial to Sony, and if you remember Kaz Hirai has mentioned that VGs is one of the 3 sony pillars, so one can easily assume VGs is more important to Sony than movies
- Control rights to a Spiderman animated movie that's unrelated to the MCU

Marvel gets:
- Spiderman in the MCU

There's no way Marvel doesn't get at least some share in the profits, otherwise I feel like Disney ultimately would have nixed the deal. Why make another studio's movie for free?

 

[Kanon]

Im posting a redditor's pitch for an MCU Fantastic Four here because i thought it was perfect:

"How would you do an MCU Fantastic Four movie?
u/infinight888 • 20d
I think having them gain their powers by going to space makes too much sense at this point not to do. After Infinity War, the Earth's government will be desperate to find a way of defending itself from alien threats. Have Reed Richards invent the first warp drive, and the Four gain their abilities testing it.

Also, I would call their shuttle The Fantasy, so the media will be calling them The Fantastic Four before they even get their powers."

https://m.reddit.com/r/marvelstudio...urce=amp&utm_medium=comment_list&compact=true

Would the shuttle be named The Fantastic? So they are the Fantastic Four? (as the four of the fantastic). Not a fan of the idea, but It wouldn't bother me neither.

The rest of the pitch sounds good enough for me. Maybe I would like to Reed to build the ship as a defense against aliens, and then the accident happens on a forced flight to void some power capturing the ship (terrorist, or maybe the us government to use against terrorists, or H.A.M.M.E.R.)

 

[Endeavor]

Hmm... if Fox needs Marvel's approval to change characters, that would imply that Marvel approved Barakapool.

Well, Marvel Studios did not exist back then. They were still in survival mode, being led by guys who only thought about toys, and Disney was nowhere in the picture. That Marvel agreed to many many stupid things.

It's a different Marvel now.

 

[Endeavor]

But Marvel agreed to those changes before Marvel Studios and the Disney buyout. Gambit could have been re-imagined as a street talkin' penguin with a flatulence problem and Avi Arad would have given the alterations the thumbs up.

LMAO!

Exactly

 

[AlluAllu]

To Endeavor: I agree with your overall sentiment, but surely Marvel Studios and Feigi existed when they were making decisions about Wolverine. It was released in 2009.

 

[Endeavor]

To Endeavor: I agree with your overall sentiment, but surely Marvel Studios and Feigi existed when they were making decisions about Wolverine. It was released in 2009.

Principal photography for Origins began in Jan 2008. This means the decisions we're talking about were made in 2007. Not only was Marvel Studios just a concept, pending the results of their experiment with Paramount (Iron-Man in 2008), but Feige would be in a much less favorable situation in order to shoot down bad ideas. Arad was still around and as you know Ike was still barking orders for a long time after that.

 

[TheVileOne]

Part of me agrees with you, the other part though thinks that current Marvel would not have released a rated R movie. I'm not sure they will release one any time soon, which is sad. Imagine a PG-13 Punisher movie? I would rage. They will go rated R for their TV stuff, but I'm not sure they will for their movies.



Feige would never lie!



This always gets derailed, so I'll reply here and we can continue the conversation on PM, if you would like.

The initial amended deal was a win win for both parties. This latest deal was...not so good. Unless this latest deal states that the live film rights will completely revert back to Marvel after a movie trilogy + x amount of animated movies + x amount of exclusive PS4 games (which would easily total over $1B in Sony's coffers), then it's a one sided deal.

Reasons the deal - as we currently know it - benefited Sony more than Marvel:

This is what we know for certain:
- Marvel can use Spiderman in the MCU
- Other MCU characters can appear in the Spiderman solo
- Sony is the distributor for Homecoming and retains all previous SM movie rights they had
- Feige and his team are actually producing the movie, free of charge (possibly only getting a contract pay)
- Disney pays a fee to Sony on the BO gross for solo spiderman movies
- Marvel cannot use spiderman in promo material for MCU movies and on their "MARVEL" logo
- Spiderman game exclusively developed for Sony PS4

This is what's rumored:
- 3 picture deal where spiderman can appear in the MCU and Marvel has creative control
- Multiple games from Marvel to Sony (exclusively)

Deal seems very one sided, in Sony's favor.

Sony gets:
- Spiderman rebooted, made relevant again (I personally think it can do close or over 1B WW) and - if the rumor is true - after 3 movies, Sony can take full control of the character again when it's relevant and at an all time high. Amazing Spiderman 2 made $70MM in profit (including VOD and home distribution) while a way lesser known character in Ant Man made $104MM (before merchandise)
- Ironman and one of the hottest actors reprising his most famous role in the Spiderman movie
- Kevin Feige and his team doing the work, at no extra cost
- Other MCU characters in the spiderman movies, free of royalty charge
- Exclusive Spiderman (and possibly other Marvel characters) for games. This is very beneficial to Sony, and if you remember Kaz Hirai has mentioned that VGs is one of the 3 sony pillars, so one can easily assume VGs is more important to Sony than movies
- Control rights to a Spiderman animated movie that's unrelated to the MCU

Marvel gets:
- Spiderman in the MCU

It's not one-sided at all. Marvel/Disney still control all the merchandising and TV rights for Spider-Man. Meaning they will be the ones collecting the profits for the toys and merchandise associated with Spider-Man: Homecoming.