The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 7

[Willie Lumpkin]

Hey, I've seen people argue in their favor that it's all a business decision. Wouldn't the folks who want the film rights of Fantastic Four in Marvel Studios' hands be on board with Marvel, and by extension, Disney, making moves as to not give any attention to characters that are in the hands, movie-speaking, of their competitors?

I mean, I personally find it petty, but I've heard a few say something along the lines of 'Hey, it's a business.'

I don't have a problem with Marvel, as long as they don't have the rights, not making FF and X-Men merchandise. But I do want Marvel to make every effort to get the rights back, and I'm not sure how far they're willing to go on that. I have to believe Fox is willing to deal, so if Marvel doesn't have the rights yet, they're probably not offering much - if anything.

I sort of suspect that Marvel and Fox were talking back in the fall, but based on recent comments and actions, it seems likely to me that those talks fell through and Marvel is back to playing hard-ball.

There may not be an absolute "ban" but the policy and results are clear. Go to any toy store and you'll see Spider-man, Iron Man Captain America, Hulk etc., but you'll have to really look to find any Fox related characters.

 

[Zarex]

Removing X-Men and FF characters from classic comic book covers does come off as petty. Who buys t-shirts with badly mangled comic book art?

But limiting X-Men and FF characters in merchandising efforts is absolutely a wise business decision. Unfortunately, both of these are dog franchises for the Mouse. Wolverine may be a big deal, but due to the rights situation he is less valuable to Marvel than Daredevil, Groot or Black Panther. It stinks for long time fans, but Disney/Marvel can't be expected to invest money into characters that aren't earning their keep.

 

[NotNickFury]

Even though Disney is owned by the Mouse and will probably never hunger for or be short on money again, so not like showing characters they don't own the film rights to is going to hurt their wallets if their competitor got something from it.

 

[Zant]

Its obviously a business decision, but its the way they are going about it and some of their marginalization methods that have been embarrassing and laughable at this point. Marvel has reached new lows with what they are doing to their very own characters and I want to see how much lower they will go if Fox keeps hold of their characters and what they will do next. The whole thing is just fascinating to me, that's all.

 

[NotNickFury]

I would be willing to bet, maybe 40 years from now when we're all gone, we're in the fifth iteration of a Marvel Cinematic Universe where Marvel Studios does have the film rights to all of their characters, there'll be a tell-all, behind the scenes book on the film rights, titled "The Troubled History of Marvel Studios vs. Fox: Age of Ultron."

 

[Zarex]

There's been some foolishness from Ike - the mangled "Secret Wars" t shirts are obvious examples - but most of the merchandising decisions have been quite rational. It doesn't make any sense for Disney Consumer Products to make tie in products for FOX/Marvel movies when they have to cut Rupert a check. The Mouse moved a crapload of Deadpool merchandise when that movie came out, and since all of it was comic book based FOX didn't get a cut.

And while some folks are complaining about Magneto, Wolverine, and Storm et al being removed from the next Capcom fighting game, Marvel should feature their most valuable characters. The game can't feature all 5,000 Marvel characters, and Thanos, Black Panther and Captain Marvel all have higher earning potential than the FOX controlled characters.

And outside of Deadpool and Wolverine, FOX movies haven't exactly excelled in showcasing Marvel characters. While it is often said that Feige and company have turned B and C-list characters into A list attractions, FOX's uneven efforts have had the opposite effect. It doesn't make sense to put X-Men products in stores if there is no mainstream demand for it.

 

[P Supreme]

I've seen some discussion of this, but I know zero about video games. Could they just slot other characters in there or would gamers say: "What the f***?!?!" if Doom and X-Men characters weren't there?

When I was at Disney World, it was very glaring that FF and X-Men were missing. I was in a store that had nothing but Marvel merchandise, but there weren't any Fox characters even inadvertently popping up on anything.

in NYCC it was my first time going so I went on a merchandising hunt for x-men products and to my amazement maybe one t shirt and when I asked the vendors why no x-men merch it was almost as if I was asking for street drugs and they got nervous lol

 

[jaymes_e06]

Them changing Wanda and Pietro's paternity to not have it involving the X-Men and Magneto was the only time I was just like "oh, brother "

It felt far too calculated. The rest were petty but at least entertaining like them blowing up the cast of FFINO (though admittedly that was really bad... does anyone edit these books anymore?)

 

[Zant]

in NYCC it was my first time going so I went on a merchandising hunt for x-men products and to my amazement maybe one t shirt and when I asked the vendors why no x-men merch it was almost as if I was asking for street drugs and they got nervous lol

Lol busted. I bet Marvel employees are not allowed to say the word xmen or Fantastic 4, but seriously I heard a rumor that they even took down FF and Xmen posters and art from the walls at the Marvel headquarters. That will really hurt Fox's feelings lol.

I want to them to cancel all the xmen books (which in a way is limited free advertising for Fox characters) if they have the guts. That will be interesting.

 

[NotNickFury]

I'd like to think they can still say X-Men or Fantastic Four, but every time they do, either an alarm goes off or their words are bleeped out, like with Julie in Scott Pilgrim.

[YT]N13WI3oVda8[/YT]

 

[Dark Raven]

I bet if you bought Incredible Hulk #180 you'd find him fighting Black Panther now instead of Wolverine.

I don't have a problem with Marvel, as long as they don't have the rights, not making FF and X-Men merchandise. But I do want Marvel to make every effort to get the rights back, and I'm not sure how far they're willing to go on that. I have to believe Fox is willing to deal, so if Marvel doesn't have the rights yet, they're probably not offering much - if anything.

I sort of suspect that Marvel and Fox were talking back in the fall, but based on recent comments and actions, it seems likely to me that those talks fell through and Marvel is back to playing hard-ball.

There may not be an absolute "ban" but the policy and results are clear. Go to any toy store and you'll see Spider-man, Iron Man Captain America, Hulk etc., but you'll have to really look to find any Fox related characters.

You could probably find copies of Fant4stic DVD covers in the store restrooms used as toilet paper.

 

[wobbly]

Them changing Wanda and Pietro's paternity to not have it involving the X-Men and Magneto was the only time I was just like "oh, brother "

It felt far too calculated. The rest were petty but at least entertaining like them blowing up the cast of FFINO (though admittedly that was really bad... does anyone edit these books anymore?)

The Wanda/Pietro thing seemed pointless to me. Fox can still use them as mutants after all. I suppose the ret-con allows them to be closer to the movie counterparts, but even so..Why bother?

Guess I find that one a little bit annoying too as when I was growing up, reading Uncanny X-Men & Avengers (Claremont/Byrne era with the latter having a spell working on both books) Magneto being the twins father was a slow burn secret revealed to the readers (well, it wasn't spelled out, but was very easy to figure out) before the characters knew about it.

A bit of a shame that's been undone.

 

[Zarex]

The Wanda/Pietro thing seemed pointless to me. Fox can still use them as mutants after all. I suppose the ret-con allows them to be closer to the movie counterparts, but even so..Why bother?

Guess I find that one a little bit annoying too as when I was growing up, reading Uncanny X-Men & Avengers (Claremont/Byrne era with the latter having a spell working on both books) Magneto being the twins father was a slow burn secret revealed to the readers (well, it wasn't spelled out, but was very easy to figure out) before the characters knew about it.

A bit of a shame that's been undone.

I didn't mind that one as it was actually a ret-ret con from the original parentage of Whizzer and Miss America. And selling comics is a tough business nowadays. If you can use controversy over live action rights to sell books - as in the upcoming Inhumans vs X-Men - you should probably do it.

 

[wobbly]

I didn't mind that one as it was actually a ret-ret con from the original parentage of Whizzer and Miss America. And selling comics is a tough business nowadays. If you can use controversy over live action rights to sell books - as in the upcoming Inhumans vs X-Men - you should probably do it.

Oh, that is all very true. It's just the nostalgic old fart in me that remembers the first ret-con fondly finds the new one a bit annoying.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Removing X-Men and FF characters from classic comic book covers does come off as petty. Who buys t-shirts with badly mangled comic book art?

But limiting X-Men and FF characters in merchandising efforts is absolutely a wise business decision. Unfortunately, both of these are dog franchises for the Mouse. Wolverine may be a big deal, but due to the rights situation he is less valuable to Marvel than Daredevil, Groot or Black Panther. It stinks for long time fans, but Disney/Marvel can't be expected to invest money into characters that aren't earning their keep.

Exactly. If it's a question of: "Should we invest to create prototypes, molds, production lines etc. for Iron Man - and help promote the character while making money off the efforts we've put into the films, or should we do Cyclops - who will look like comic Cyclops, not film Cyclops and who people really aren't that interested in because while he has been in some Fox films, he hasn't really been featured and kids aren't that in to him."

It's pretty much a no-brainer and hard to blame them.

But putting an effort into removing characters from art-work they've always been in seems crazy.

Though to be fair, I heard someone once suggest (I don't know how much truth there is to it) that Marvel doesn't actually make anything. They only license certain characters. So it's not really a matter of Marvel changing the art-work but the T-Shirt manufacturer - who can only feature characters on the list of characters they're allowed to use - altering the design to make sure they're within their legal bounds.

Though that might be a matter of semantics because Marvel is the one who decided not to include The Thing, Cyclops etc. on the list of characters the T-Shirt manufacturer was allowed to use.

 

[Docker2.0]

Removing X-Men and FF characters from classic comic book covers does come off as petty. Who buys t-shirts with badly mangled comic book art?

But limiting X-Men and FF characters in merchandising efforts is absolutely a wise business decision. Unfortunately, both of these are dog franchises for the Mouse. Wolverine may be a big deal, but due to the rights situation he is less valuable to Marvel than Daredevil, Groot or Black Panther. It stinks for long time fans, but Disney/Marvel can't be expected to invest money into characters that aren't earning their keep.

Exactly. If it's a question of: "Should we invest to create prototypes, molds, production lines etc. for Iron Man - and help promote the character while making money off the efforts we've put into the films, or should we do Cyclops - who will look like comic Cyclops, not film Cyclops and who people really aren't that interested in because while he has been in some Fox films, he hasn't really been featured and kids aren't that in to him."

It's pretty much a no-brainer and hard to blame them.

But putting an effort into removing characters from art-work they've always been in seems crazy.

Though to be fair, I heard someone once suggest (I don't know how much truth there is to it) that Marvel doesn't actually make anything. They only license certain characters. So it's not really a matter of Marvel changing the art-work but the T-Shirt manufacturer - who can only feature characters on the list of characters they're allowed to use - altering the design to make sure they're within their legal bounds.

Though that might be a matter of semantics because Marvel is the one who decided not to include The Thing, Cyclops etc. on the list of characters the T-Shirt manufacturer was allowed to use.

Agreed! I don't blame Marvel one bit. Think about it: Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant Man, and Dr. Strange are more well known now than Wolverine, Storm, and Professor X now. Let that sink in for a minute. With the exception of one movie, hasn't Dr. Strange outgrossed all of the Marvel superhero movies? Disney has done an excellent job at turning their C and D list characters into household names. I'm willing to bet that Fox probably wanted to work with Marvel and they probably said no at this point because of how Fox played hardball in the past with their characters. Fox needs Marvel WAY more than Marvel needs F4 or Fox at this point. With the exception of Deadpool, the Xmen seem like a stale franchise at this point.

 

[Dark Raven]

Exactly. If it's a question of: "Should we invest to create prototypes, molds, production lines etc. for Iron Man - and help promote the character while making money off the efforts we've put into the films, or should we do Cyclops - who will look like comic Cyclops, not film Cyclops and who people really aren't that interested in because while he has been in some Fox films, he hasn't really been featured and kids aren't that in to him."

It's pretty much a no-brainer and hard to blame them.

But putting an effort into removing characters from art-work they've always been in seems crazy.

Though to be fair, I heard someone once suggest (I don't know how much truth there is to it) that Marvel doesn't actually make anything. They only license certain characters. So it's not really a matter of Marvel changing the art-work but the T-Shirt manufacturer - who can only feature characters on the list of characters they're allowed to use - altering the design to make sure they're within their legal bounds.

Though that might be a matter of semantics because Marvel is the one who decided not to include The Thing, Cyclops etc. on the list of characters the T-Shirt manufacturer was allowed to use.

In light of Fant4stic, Marvel need to produce a pair of underpants with "no Thing" emblazoned on it.

 

[TheVileOne]

That's why we see them in Contest of Champions and not Future Fight.



Kinda sad for MVC4 cuz my mains were Iron Man/War Machine, Cable/Deadpool and Cyclops. 2/3 of them are gone. I grew up with X-Men vs Street Fighter so its a huge pity.

Marvel vs. Capcom has existed before the ban. By your definition of the ban, it should not have to exclude those characters.

 

[Random490]

Them changing Wanda and Pietro's paternity to not have it involving the X-Men and Magneto was the only time I was just like "oh, brother "

It felt far too calculated. The rest were petty but at least entertaining like them blowing up the cast of FFINO (though admittedly that was really bad... does anyone edit these books anymore?)

I saw that more akin to Spider-man get organic webs, the films had to make a change so comic followed suit to work with any new readers. I feel like it was suppose to kick off some big storyline banking on their popularity boost after AoU, but they just never follow through.

 

[Darkraid]

Marvel vs. Capcom has existed before the ban. By your definition of the ban, it should not have to exclude those characters.

Heh. The new game is a reboot. 2v2

 

[Darepool]

I don't want to seem insensitive or inflammatory, but it's so obvious that the Fox acolytes have realized that it's getting harder & harder to come at Marvel Studios with each film success (and Fox's pittance in comparison), so now they are using this avenue to attack Marvel on more 'legitimate' grounds. It sucks that the X-Men are at Fox and this is the consequence, but you've had years now to get over it. As an X-Men fan I have. (But then I'm an actual Marvel fan too ) Acceptance: The First Step in Achieving Your Healing Miracle.

Yeah, millions are at stake and they are doing what they feel is in their best interest. It's business, it's business, it's business. Let that set in.

 

[ADollarADay]

I sort of suspect that Marvel and Fox were talking back in the fall, but based on recent comments and actions, it seems likely to me that those talks fell through and Marvel is back to playing hard-ball.

Which begs the question, just WTH did Marvel/Disney get for signing off on those XMen TV shows?

 

[Kanon]

About the X-Men and FF in MvC Infinite (announced yesterday revealing only Iron Man and Captain Marvel in the Marvel side)

The last big question for a Marvel Vs. Capcom game is the roster, but Capcom told me at the start of our meeting they wouldn’t be revealing anyone other than the four characters shown in the gameplay trailer shown off at the end of tonight’s Capcom Cup finals (Ryu, Mega Man X, Captain Marvel, and Iron Man). However, they did offer a few details about their direction.

When I asked them about the rumor that the game’s roster would not include as many (or any) characters from the X-Men or Fantastic Four series due film rights issues (the current film series for those franchises are owned by Fox and not Marvel Studios) and would instead favor characters already in the Marvel cinematic universe, Creative Director of Marvel Entertainment Bill Rosemann didn’t tense up the way PR folks tend to when you ask them a difficult question. While Marvel wants to take a forward-thinking stance with the characters they include in the game, he wants to make sure fans of all of Marvel properties, including X-Men, are happy. “That heritage is not lost,” he told me. Not the straight answer I was looking for, but it left me hopeful about my chances of Berserker Barraging people as Wolverine next year.

Rosemann and Executive Producer at Marvel Games Mike Jones also emphasized that they’re looking at this project the way they have all of their recent projects in games, film, and television (Jones brought up Insomniac’s upcoming Spider-Man game and their current run of well-regarded series on Netflix as a reference point). They want to make sure Infinite’s use of the Marvel license is well-earned, and mentioned the game will have a more expansive, cinematic story mode this time around. “We want to make sure this game is dripping with Marvel,” said Rosemann.

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/m...are-made-more-chaotic-by-infinity-stones.aspx

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Which begs the question, just WTH did Marvel/Disney get for signing off on those XMen TV shows?

I'm wondering if that might have been an olive branch from Marvel: "Come on, we're stronger united than divided. We'll take Perlmutter out of the picture and start acting like adults."

But now, considering the things we've been seeing and hearing lately, from all outward appearances, it seems like we're right back where we were. So something might have gotten in the way.

Perhaps they just couldn't come together on the numbers and what we're hearing now is just Marvel trying to tell Fox they're not going any farther.

Obviously that's complete speculation, but if I'm close, the value of the rights is decreasing as time passes and the natural reversion date gets closer. An offer that Marvel may have put on the table a year ago might not be there any more and Fox will have to face the reality of steadily decreasing offers.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

About the X-Men and FF in MvC Infinite (announced yesterday revealing only Iron Man and Captain Marvel in the Marvel side)

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/m...are-made-more-chaotic-by-infinity-stones.aspx

Thanks. I guess the hope for any clarity was overly-optimistic.

I wonder if it's possible the characters aren't even finalized yet.