The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 7

[TheVileOne]

OK, but they couldn't make their own X-Men TV shows without Fox's involvement anyway. So 1) why should they have to let Fox in on their own shows when they don't need to, and 2) they can't really connect any X-Men TV shows to their greater MCU because of the film barriers. They couldn't make any X-Men TV shows in live-action without risking a lawsuit, muddying the waters of the MCU, or doing it without Fox's approval.

It seems unlikely, but that's exactly what happened. And now they have a stake in the show. So...it's happened. And it's happened without Fantastic Four returning to them.

And the reason Fantastic Four didn't come into play here? Because that IP has more value than what happened here.

I imagine it went something like this. "OK, since our hands are tied with X-Men on TV, we'll go ahead and let you make these X-Men TV properties. We get final say and approval, we get a cut of the profits and co-production credit, and you get to make X-Men TV spin-offs."

 

[Crimz]

We'd never know even if they have the rights right now. Marvel would never give up the chance to announce at an event like comic con, closer to when they are actually planning to make it. So we wouldn't hear anything till around Infinity War part 2 or after. We only found out about Spider-man because of the leak, so unless that happens again we won't even know. It's all very frustrating.

This whole situation sounds like Schrödinger's cat.

 

[TheVileOne]

We'd never know even if they have the rights right now. Marvel would never give up the chance to announce at an event like comic con, closer to when they are actually planning to make it. So we wouldn't hear anything till around Infinity War part 2 or after. We only found out about Spider-man because of the leak, so unless that happens again we won't even know. It's all very frustrating.

This whole situation sounds like Schrödinger's cat.

What makes you so sure?

So you are saying they are going to wait three years to announce they have the rights back? That makes no sense. When has Marvel ever waited that long.

 

[Crimz]

What makes you so sure?

So you are saying they are going to wait three years to announce they have the rights back? That makes no sense. When has Marvel ever waited that long.

They lose nothing from waiting and not taking hype away form their current projects. Phase 3 is all planned out, they wouldn't be introduce till Phase 4 if they have them. So why rush and lose the hype for the film eventually.

I'm not saying that they have the rights, but I'm also not ruling out the possibility that they do. I'll just have be patient and see how things go, a lot can happen over the years.

Also I sleep a lot better thinking that Fox might not have their grubby claws on the F4 anymore.

 

[TheVileOne]

They lose nothing from waiting and not taking hype away form their current projects. Phase 3 is all planned out, they wouldn't be introduce till Phase 4 if they have them. So why rush and lose the hype for the film eventually.

I'm not saying that they have the rights, but I'm also not ruling out the possibility that they do. I'll just have be patient and see how things go, a lot can happen over the years.

Also I sleep a lot better thinking that Fox might not have their grubby claws on the F4 anymore.

Because there is no hype to rush because it's not in the cards right now.

Phase 4 isn't that hard to figure out really. Spider-Man movie/sequel, Doctor Strange sequel, Ant-Man/Wasp sequel, Captain Marvel sequel, Black Panther sequel, Avengers sequel, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3. That's seven movies right there. Let's say Feige is serious about a Black Widow spin-off, and then you have eight.

We know all of Phase 3, and two of those 10 films are Avengers movies. Over half of Phase 3 concerns sequels to Phase 2.

Now to be clear, I imagine it's highly possible for plans to change. We've already seen those plans change with the delays of Captain Marvel and Ant-Man and the Wasp joining the slate. Not to mention Inhumans as a film franchise falling by the wayside.

However, I think all evidence pointing to Fantastic Four having already returned being nothing more than a fan myth.

 

[Docker2.0]

I don't think Marvel ever announced they got Punisher, Ghost Rider or Blade back. We just found out in interviews.

 

[Crimz]

Because there is no hype to rush because it's not in the cards right now.

Phase 4 isn't that hard to figure out really. Spider-Man movie/sequel, Doctor Strange sequel, Ant-Man/Wasp sequel, Captain Marvel sequel, Black Panther sequel, Avengers sequel, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3. That's seven movies right there. Let's say Feige is serious about a Black Widow spin-off, and then you have eight.

We know all of Phase 3, and two of those 10 films are Avengers movies. Over half of Phase 3 concerns sequels to Phase 2.

Now to be clear, I imagine it's highly possible for plans to change. We've already seen those plans change with the delays of Captain Marvel and Ant-Man and the Wasp joining the slate. Not to mention Inhumans as a film franchise falling by the wayside.

However, I think all evidence pointing to Fantastic Four having already returned being nothing more than a fan myth.

Maybe. Maybe not. It's not an impossibility.

 

[TheVileOne]

It's not impossible, but it's highly improbable that Fantastic Four ever figured into the X-Men TV deal.

And once again, Marvel is not hurting and desperate to get Fantastic Four rights back right now. If a bunch of their other properties were failing or weren't thriving right now, maybe they'd be strapped to make a play for them, but that's not the case. They can play the waiting game as long as they want.

 

[Zarex]

Guess what. I Googled it. Here's what I found:

http://www.leagle.com/decision/2001... CENTURY FOX FILM CORP. v. MARVEL ENTERPRISES



BOOM.

The fact of the matter is this. There was a legal stalemate here. Marvel had the TV rights to the X-Men property, but they had a legal boundary keeping them from going forth with their own X-Men TV shows. Hence, Mutant X which ended up in a three-year lawsuit. Fox did not have the rights to produce X-Men TV shows.

This deal is mutually beneficial because Marvel really couldn't do any type of X-Men TV series without Fox's involvement. Not only that, they wouldn't be able to fit into their grander MCU.

This way Marvel gets cut into everything and Jeph Loeb gets to be involved.

All this was done without Fantastic Four changing hands. Bing. Bang. Boom.

And here's another matter entirely. The fact of the matter is this. And this is what some fans here are not willing to admit to themselves. Marvel and Disney are in a position right now where they do not badly need the characters of X-Men and Fantastic Four. They are doing fine without them. They've established the gold standard for a shared cinematic universe that's leaving the rest of the industry trying to play catch-up. They turn C-list characters into A-list branded franchises and global billion dollar film franchises. When Feige says they have enough films to last them lifetimes, it's the truth. People here aren't getting it.

People thought Ant-Man might flop. It was a success, and it's getting a sequel. Doctor Strange? It's heading toward $650 million worldwide and it's going to probably break over $230 million domestically. A live-action movie starring DOCTOR STRANGE.

Now the empire is continuing across network TV, digital streaming on demand TV, and more. Marvel's got a nice backlog and set of characters and a good reputation for delivering satisfying experiences for all ages. All that can be done without making huge payouts or exchanges for Fantastic Four or X-Men character sets.

Oh BOOM my Aunt Fannie. You realize that posters on these boards have been discussing the Mutant X lawsuit for years, right? Don't act like you're dropping knowledge on a bunch of rubes.

And your whole argument rests on the facts that Disney/Marvel really, really wants to put an X-Men TV show on the air. Which was true about a decade and a half ago. And that FOX is going to cling like grim death to a franchise that hasn't earned them a dime in over a decade.

The fact is, Disney/Marvel hasn't invested at all in the X-Men franchise. Look at the cartoons on Disney XD. Look at the Mutant free character poster released last year. Read the Complex thread on CBR. Just this week, look at the Marvel vs Capcom announcement which is rumored to be X-Men free. FOX approached Marvel to put the shows on the air, not the other way around. And there's zero reason to extend rights to FOX without compensation.

Marvel has requested multiple times for access to FF characters, but we are expected to swallow that they chose to forego adding rights for that sweetly, sweet Legion money? Sorry, doesn't wash.

 

[Crimz]

It's not impossible, but it's highly improbable that Fantastic Four ever figured into the X-Men TV deal.

And once again, Marvel is not hurting and desperate to get Fantastic Four rights back right now. If a bunch of their other properties were failing or weren't thriving right now, maybe they'd be strapped to make a play for them, but that's not the case. They can play the waiting game as long as they want.

I like to be hopeful when it comes to the movie rights, it makes waiting feel like it goes by faster.

 

[TheVileOne]

Oh BOOM my Aunt Fannie. You realize that posters on these boards have been discussing the Mutant X lawsuit for years, right? Don't act like you're dropping knowledge on a bunch of rubes.

And your whole argument rests on the facts that Disney/Marvel really, really wants to put an X-Men TV show on the air. Which was true about a decade and a half ago. And that FOX is going to cling like grim death to a franchise that hasn't earned them a dime in over a decade.

Well it's Fox who is putting it on the air. The property not earning them money means nothing. Fox still clung to the Watchmen rights for grim death despite Fox never having any commitment at all to make the movie and sitting on the rights for years and never getting a film done.

The fact is that Disney/Marvel can't put a live-action X-Men TV series on the air without their being a legal issue with Fox. This basically solves that problem.

The fact is, Disney/Marvel hasn't invested at all in the X-Men franchise. Look at the cartoons on Disney XD. Look at the Mutant free character poster released last year. Read the Complex thread on CBR. Just this week, look at the Marvel vs Capcom announcement which is rumored to be X-Men free. FOX approached Marvel to put the shows on the air, not the other way around. And there's zero reason to extend rights to FOX without compensation.

How do you know they weren't compensated? If the show's a success and gets syndicated, those payouts become very lucrative.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/dc-universe-movies-heading-tnt-tbs-943361

The DC CW TV shows reportedly generate $1 billion a year. The way I see it, this deal makes their investment in the X-Men rather low, and they still profit off of it from well. So none of this reasoning really counts against a deal going forth.

Marvel has requested multiple times for access to FF characters, but we are expected to swallow that they chose to forego adding rights for that sweetly, sweet Legion money? Sorry, doesn't wash.

There's only ONE documented request. That one documented request was access to Silver Surfer and Galactus. Not the Fantastic Four. That was in exchange for an extension on Daredevil's film rights.

This had nothing to do with TV rights.

Marvel didn't really forego much of anything at all because as I've pointed out before, Marvel has not been in a position to produce live-action X-Men TV shows forever. The Mutant X deal reinforces that. You're ignoring the fact that despite Marvel having the TV rights to the X-Men, they can't really do anything with them without Fox per the aforementioned terms of the deal.

So basically, they've given approval to Fox to let them do something they couldn't really do in the first place, and they are going to profit from it. If Legion fails, Disney/Marvel really loses nothing in the process. Nothing at all. The majority of the risk falls on Fox.

If Legion fails, Marvel sheds no tears. They have a half dozen hits on Netflix plus TV deals coming out the wazoo on ABC, Freeform, etc.

 

[Zarex]

Well it's Fox who is putting it on the air. The property not earning them money means nothing. Fox still clung to the Watchmen rights for grim death despite Fox never having any commitment at all to make the movie and sitting on the rights for years and never getting a film done.

And FOX's stubbornness over Watchmen earned themselves a cut of the BO losses. You think they'll pull that trick again with Fant4stic: Reloaded?

The fact is that Disney/Marvel can't put a live-action X-Men TV series on the air without their being a legal issue with Fox. This basically solves that problem.

What problem? There has been no indication that Disney/Marvel ever wanted to put an X-Men show on the air. This is entirely a FOX led effort.

How do you know they weren't compensated? If the show's a success and gets syndicated, those payouts become very lucrative.

The DC CW TV shows reportedly generate $1 billion a year. The way I see it, this deal makes their investment in the X-Men rather low, and they still profit off of it from well. So none of this reasoning really counts against a deal going forth.

The DC shows feature Supergirl and the Flash. The X-MEN show is a cult offering - I don't see a billion there, do you? And why wouldn't Marvel keep the "billions" themselves and handle the shows themselves. Because they want to share the wealth with their good pal Rupert?

There's only ONE documented request. That one documented request was access to Silver Surfer and Galactus. Not the Fantastic Four. That was in exchange for an extension on Daredevil's film rights.

There was also a report on IO9. So that's TWO.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/whats-behind-marvels-campaign-to-remove-the-x-men-from-1707514860

Marvel didn't really forego much of anything at all because as I've pointed out before, Marvel has not been in a position to produce live-action X-Men TV shows forever. The Mutant X deal reinforces that. You're ignoring the fact that despite Marvel having the TV rights to the X-Men, they can't really do anything with them without Fox per the aforementioned terms of the deal.

So basically, they've given approval to Fox to let them do something they couldn't really do in the first place, and they are going to profit from it. If Legion fails, Disney/Marvel really loses nothing in the process. Nothing at all. The majority of the risk falls on Fox.

If Legion fails, Marvel sheds no tears. They have a half dozen hits on Netflix plus TV deals coming out the wazoo on ABC, Freeform, etc.

Disney/Marvel could have been making money all along on merchandise and animation but chose not do. It apparently wasn't worth the effort to invest in the X-Men franchise since 2009. But is now, for some reason. Agree to disagree on what that was.

 

[wobbly]

I look at the history of all this and Marvel basically handing over their 'stalemate' on X-Men TV Rights for some stake in the cash doesn't add up to me.

Seriously, X-Men was 16 years ago. Fox had 9 years to pursue a TV deal and (as far we know) never bothered. Disney buys Marvel out in 2009, another 7 years pass by with zero activity on the TV front...and now when Fox comes a calling Disney (of all companies) cave in?

If it was still just Marvel Studios, I could maybe see them going for it, but this is Disney...They don't need the money, and they aint in the business of letting competitors make money off them if they can help it. And a TV x-verse expansion is something they most certainly could c#ck block from here to kingdom come and it would make bugger all difference to their bottom line.

For Fox, if the shows do well, its $$$ a plenty and their hold on the X-Men is even stronger. After FFINO successfully demolished a franchise and Apolalypse's 'meh' performance, Disney giving Fox any assistance without some damned good sweetener in return makes zero sense.

And we should remember Disney are notorious for holding and protecting any IP's they own. They have a school of hungry sharks in suits who make it their daily business to shut down anyone trying to cash in on something they own.

Now the Mutant X lawsuit gave us the closest we have ever seen to details on these contracts, and that showed us Marvel owned the TV rights, but could not make a show without Fox's consent.

Stalemate. And Disney had no good reason at all to end it (and in doing so strengthen Fox's hold on the X-men), unless Fox were giving something significant back in return. I'm just not seeing a stake in the show as being nearly enough to satisfy them.

At the very least we know the original contract will have been amended to allow Fox to make the shows, and if Disney's suits were on the ball they'd have made damn sure the new t&c's are far more favourable than before, not worse.

This doesn't mean an FF reversion was part of the deal, but I'd be bloody surprised if the new contract is still as one sided as it was before.

 

[wobbly]

I don't think Marvel ever announced they got Punisher, Ghost Rider or Blade back. We just found out in interviews.

Add Daredevil to that. Though trades basically knew he had reverted (Carnahan's tweets would have clued them in) it wasn't confirmed for several months.

And the Ego trade wasn't announced either: One of Deadpool's writers let that one slip in a Q&A.

Disney/Marvel prefer to keep these things under the radar. No fanfare, they just take them back then reveal it later on.

 

[Snaaaaake!]

Oh BOOM my Aunt Fannie. You realize that posters on these boards have been discussing the Mutant X lawsuit for years, right? Don't act like you're dropping knowledge on a bunch of rubes.

And your whole argument rests on the facts that Disney/Marvel really, really wants to put an X-Men TV show on the air. Which was true about a decade and a half ago. And that FOX is going to cling like grim death to a franchise that hasn't earned them a dime in over a decade.

The fact is, Disney/Marvel hasn't invested at all in the X-Men franchise. Look at the cartoons on Disney XD. Look at the Mutant free character poster released last year. Read the Complex thread on CBR. Just this week, look at the Marvel vs Capcom announcement which is rumored to be X-Men free. FOX approached Marvel to put the shows on the air, not the other way around. And there's zero reason to extend rights to FOX without compensation.

Marvel has requested multiple times for access to FF characters, but we are expected to swallow that they chose to forego adding rights for that sweetly, sweet Legion money? Sorry, doesn't wash.

This here get a thumbs up!

Yeah, I've read about the mutant X dispute on multiple sites years ago. It's one of the things that began to put me off about Fox in the first place.

At the end of the day they come off as arrogant, incompetent pr!cks, who occasionally get lucky enough stay alive (Deadpool) when it comes to CBM's.

 

[Zarex]

Agreed. The 1993 X-Men agreement is a notoriously bad deal. And we're expected to believe that Disney/Marvel agreed to renegotiate.......in order to make it even more favorable to FOX? Again, if someone can explain why The Mouse would sign such a deal, I would love to hear it.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

The idea that Marvel would have agreed to the X-Men TV show just so they could have a piece of it is ludicrous.

Marvel has literally thousands of characters they could make into TV shows if they wanted to. They could lock Fox out and have a monopoly for Marvel characters and stories on TV and they'd get all of the profit from any of those shows.

There's nothing magical about the X-Men - particularly since it won't be the X-Men people know and recognize. It won't be Cyclops, Wolverine, Beast etc.

If it's really just about profit from a TV show, Marvel could easily develop something from the thousands of character they have at their disposal. They don't need anything from Fox.

When it comes to who benefits from an X-Men TV show, Fox clearly benefits and Marvel likely won't get more than they would from simply making some Wolverine T-Shirts and action figures.

 

[TheVileOne]

And FOX's stubbornness over Watchmen earned themselves a cut of the BO losses. You think they'll pull that trick again with Fant4stic: Reloaded?

Of course they will.

What problem? There has been no indication that Disney/Marvel ever wanted to put an X-Men show on the air. This is entirely a FOX led effort.

Exactly. It's Fox led and Marvel/Disney still profits from it considering they couldn't do the TV show anyway because the film rights for X-Men are still tied up at Fox.

The DC shows feature Supergirl and the Flash. The X-MEN show is a cult offering - I don't see a billion there, do you? And why wouldn't Marvel keep the "billions" themselves and handle the shows themselves. Because they want to share the wealth with their good pal Rupert?

You really think Supergirl is a bigger brand than X-Men? I feel like you are ignoring the fact the reason they can't keep the billions themselves is a legal boundary. They can't do anything X-Men TV related without Fox getting involved, as the previous deal stated. They tried that, and they started a lawsuit over Mutant X that lasted three years. I've said this several times. The reason they can't just keep it all themselves is because there is a legal conflict presented by them making their own X-Men themed TV series. They can't do it on their own. So the idea that Marvel has complete control over X-Men TV rights basically is in and of itself a fallacy. Marvel clearly tried to test that ownership with Mutant X and failed.

There was also a report on IO9. So that's TWO.

This so-called report. I read through it and here is what I found:

Although the current conflict allegedly stems from a breakdown in negotiations between Fox and Marvel over the Fantastic Four last year, it’s those decisions in the 90’s that have kept the two sets of characters out of Marvel’s hands to this day.

The report mentions a breakdown over the Fantastic Four in 2014. No other details are mentioned of this negotiation or breakdown or what it entailed. Also key word, ALLEGED. Here's the definition of allegedly:

"used to convey that something is claimed to be the case or have taken place, although there is no proof."

Disney/Marvel could have been making money all along on merchandise and animation but chose not do. It apparently wasn't worth the effort to invest in the X-Men franchise since 2009. But is now, for some reason. Agree to disagree on what that was.

Actually no they couldn't have. They could never have made money all along on a show on their own without running the risk of upsetting Fox. Hence Marvel going into making their own Mutant X show WITHOUT Fox after Fox already produced and released their own X-Men movie, and Fox was NOT happy.

 

[TheVileOne]

The idea that Marvel would have agreed to the X-Men TV show just so they could have a piece of it is ludicrous.

Explain why its ludicrous.

Marvel has literally thousands of characters they could make into TV shows if they wanted to. They could lock Fox out and have a monopoly for Marvel characters and stories on TV and they'd get all of the profit from any of those shows.

Marvel is making tons of TV shows lately if you haven't noticed. They are gearing up Inhumans right now. Not to mention Runaways and Cloak & Dagger. The Punisher and The Defenders are in production as speak.

But the fact of the matter is this Willie. They cannot, I repeat CANNOT lock out Fox where it concerns X-Men. They tried that, and that effort failed. It was a big legal nightmare.

There's nothing magical about the X-Men - particularly since it won't be the X-Men people know and recognize. It won't be Cyclops, Wolverine, Beast etc.

If it's really just about profit from a TV show, Marvel could easily develop something from the thousands of character they have at their disposal. They don't need anything from Fox.

No they don't need anything from Fox Willie...except for the fact that you believe they need Fantastic Four back right? Because that's what this is all about. Your hopes and dreams of Fantastic Four returning to Marvel. You say Marvel needs nothing from Fox but they do need Fantastic Four right. That way your dreams of seeing a good Fantastic Four movie aren't dead forever.

They can't develop X-Men TV shows without Fox's approval or without creating a legal issue with Fox already controlling the X-Men film rights.

When it comes to who benefits from an X-Men TV show, Fox clearly benefits and Marvel likely won't get more than they would from simply making some Wolverine T-Shirts and action figures.

TV revenue and potential syndication rights have a lot of value as well. You are simply being obstinate because of a fantasy and mythological notion that the Fantastic Four rights had to be traded here.

Agreed. The 1993 X-Men agreement is a notoriously bad deal. And we're expected to believe that Disney/Marvel agreed to renegotiate.......in order to make it even more favorable to FOX? Again, if someone can explain why The Mouse would sign such a deal, I would love to hear it.

Because the current deal already restricts them from exploring X-Men on TV. And it favorably gets them paid. As you said, Marvel was not interested in making X-Men on TV anyway. So Fox gets that now, and Marvel profits from it as well. Why wouldn't they sign such a deal?

It doesn't necessarily grant Fox greater control. It grants them access to the library of Marvel's Mutant/X-Men characters to make a TV show that Marvel will get handsomely paid for. Marvel gets first approval. It benefits them since there are legal conflicts preventing them from making X-Men or mutant shows in the first place.

If Marvel/Disney were to independently start their own Legion series tomorrow, Fox would more than likely start a lawsuit over it.

 

[wobbly]

Actually no they couldn't have. They could never have made money all along on a show on their own without running the risk of upsetting Fox. Hence Marvel going into making their own Mutant X show WITHOUT Fox after Fox already produced and released their own X-Men movie, and Fox was NOT happy.

Zarex said 'merchandising and animation', not live action TV.

Disney have done bugger all with X-Men or FF merch and animation since 2009 (some have guest starred in the Avengers cartoons, but that's about it).

So, they could have made money in the last 7 years from them, but were fine to let that go so as to starve Fox's efforts of support.

Now you expect us to beleive they are perfectly fine with letting Fox take over their ownership of live action tv rights for a stake of the money?

Disney does not need it.

 

[TheVileOne]

Actually, that's factually not true either. Hasbro has still been doing X-Men action figures and waves of Marvel Legends the last several years.

Fantastic Four Marvel Legends just got announced at Comic-Con. So if it's merchandising, it's still happening.

Actually, we don't know the terms of the deal at all. Fox may not be taking ownership, but getting access to simply what they couldn't use before, which benefits Marvel because they couldn't do their own X-Men or mutant shows either.

You say Disney doesn't need it, but they don't really need Fantastic Four either. Why do they need Fantastic Four now all of the sudden?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

But the fact of the matter is this Willie. They cannot, I repeat CANNOT lock out Fox where it concerns X-Men. They tried that, and that effort failed. It was a big legal nightmare.

This isn't true.

Fox can not make an X-Men TV show without Marvel's permission.

Marvel can not make an X-Men TV show without Fox's permission.

But Marvel doesn't need the X-Men. They have plenty of other characters just as interesting and potentially lucrative as Legion.

Fox only has X-Men and FF and they can't make TV shows of either of those without Marvel's permission.

If Marvel withholds that permission, Fox is locked out. They can't make a TV show featuring Marvel characters without Marvel's permission. That has been clearly established.

 

[Spiderine]

If thats the extent of this deal over a TV show like Legion with Disney/Marvel having a stake in the show profits and partial rights why would such info be held under tight wraps? That seems like something that would have been disclosed when this was made. There has still been nothing released about the terms of such a deal.

Thats why it feels like there was more to it. If there were characters exchanged and there are no immediate plans to use them like there was with DD and Spiderman there would be nothing mentioned from either side. DD was already being planned as a series and there were preliminary plans for Punisher but they needed to see how the first Netflix series in DD would do before moving forward with the others that reverted.

 

[TheVileOne]

This isn't true.

Fox can not make an X-Men TV show without Marvel's permission.

Marvel can not make an X-Men TV show without Fox's permission.

But Marvel doesn't need the X-Men. They have plenty of other characters just as interesting and potentially lucrative as Legion.

Yes, and are they not making those shows? Now they can make those shows and still profit from Fox making Legion as well. Win-win.

Technically, Marvel doesn't need the Fantastic Four either. Just saying.

Fox only has X-Men and FF and they can't make TV shows of either of those without Marvel's permission.

If Marvel withholds that permission, Fox is locked out. They can't make a TV show featuring Marvel characters without Marvel's permission. That has been clearly established.

Yeah, it is clearly established. And there is 100 percent no evidence or proof that they traded their Fantastic Four film rights to get it. It's all just theories and speculation.

Requests for character access is not proof such a deal took place.

 

[wobbly]

Actually, that's factually not true either. Hasbro has still been doing X-Men action figures and waves of Marvel Legends the last several years.

Fantastic Four Marvel Legends just got announced at Comic-Con. So if it's merchandising, it's still happening.

Sorry, I should have said movie merch (Fox gets a cut from that). Last Fox film to get significant tie in merch was Origins. There's been no FF or X-Men animation that I know of outside of guest spots in other toons.

Actually, we don't know the terms of the deal at all. Fox may not be taking ownership, but getting access to simply what they couldn't use before, which benefits Marvel because they couldn't do their own X-Men or mutant shows either.

We know they would have had to change the contract simply to allow Fox's TV efforts to proceed legally. You think Disney would just sign off on that without favourable changes??

And Marvel can and will be doing the Inhumans, which are not far off the same basic concept.

You say Disney doesn't need it, but they don't really need Fantastic Four either. Why do they need Fantastic Four now all of the sudden?

'Need' and 'want' are different things. Do they need the FF? No, not really. Would they want them? Yes, I think they certainly would.

Seriously, I for one do not think Marvel has the FF back as part of the TV thing. It's possible they might have wrangled that (FF aint worth f##k all to Fox now), but Disney getting better T&C's on the existing X-Men deal seems a more likely option to me.

You are on the other hand seem to almost revel (Boom...) in telling us all Disney are perfectly happy to let Fox get a TV foothold with X-Men, with no more than a stake of the money in return. For me, considering the history between the two studios and knowing Disney are bullish to say the least about their IP's, that doesn't add up.