The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 7

[metaphysician]

I said I had a "feeling", I didn't say I "knew" anything.

And my logic is very simple: Perlmutter is known for his cheapness. Fox was reluctant to make another FF film (as evidenced by their continued changing of dates, low budget and inexperienced director - hire Ridley Scott, give him a $200 million budget and you're serious about making an FF film. Hire Josh Trank, give him $100 million to make a body horror film, constantly drag your feet and push back production every step of the way, and you're probably not fully committed ). Fox likely would have accepted a reasonable offer from Marvel in 2013, but no deal happened and the result was Fant4stic.

By accounts and logic, Perlmutter was the one primarily responsible for the negotiations on Marvel's side and since no deal happened, it's likely he didn't make a reasonable offer (or ask his bosses for permission to make a reasonable offer) and/or didn't negotiate as well as possible.

Therefore, I think my feeling that if someone else had been in that seat a deal might have happened is perfectly justified.

Where did I call him a "dastardly villain with twirly mustache out to destroy all the things I love and care about"? I was just saying someone else might have been able to get the deal done. Perlmutter was a variable. Change a variable and a different outcome might have occurred. A deal didn't happen on Perlmutter's watch. That's a simple, irrefutable fact.

My comment was simple, reasonable and rational. Your response was hyperbolic and didn't address what I actually posted.

Eh, I think your mistake is assuming that the stopping block was on Marvel's side. I think its just as likely, if not moreso, than the problem was Fox having an unrealistic idea of what kind of deal they could get. If Fox's position was "300M check or walk", than Fox was the problem, as the rights aren't worth that much.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Eh, I think your mistake is assuming that the stopping block was on Marvel's side. I think its just as likely, if not moreso, than the problem was Fox having an unrealistic idea of what kind of deal they could get. If Fox's position was "300M check or walk", than Fox was the problem, as the rights aren't worth that much.

Could be and it's all just speculation, but I'll tell you what I'm thinking.

First off, I think when negotiations go bad, it's rarely one side's fault and there's probably some blame on both sides. Negotiations wouldn't start unless both sides started out wanting to make a deal.

Specifically on Marvel's side, I think they may have made the same mistake many of us did. From the moment Fox announced they would make another FF film - on the day after Disney bought Marvel - I think most of us (and Marvel as well) assumed Fox just wanted money and had no real intention of making a film.

So notoriously cheap Perlmutter probably went into it believing they could get the rights without giving much up.

So I'm betting Perlman never made an offer beyond what Fox considered insulting. If he and Marvel knew Fox really was crazy enough to go through with it, they may have gone higher, but we saw what happened.

And since reports of Perlmutter paint him as both cheap and stubborn, my gut tells me that someone a little more reasonable might have read things better, been more willing to make concessions and got it done.

It's all just speculation, but that's why I suspect (but certainly don't know) that the outcome might have been different if someone else had been there.

 

[ADollarADay]

To add a little fuel to you guys' discussion. The videogame "ban" on FF and XMen, as well as the comics thing where XMen/FF were being ignored and merchandise disappearing started in 2014. That's the same year we know for a fact that Marvel/Disney were negotiating with Sony for spiderman. It stands to reason to believe they were negotiating with Fox, and possibly Universal, at the same time.

 

[TheVileOne]

The ban is fake and not absolute.

 

[Zarex]

The ban is fake and not absolute.

Bleeding Cool ran a series of articles regarding X-Men and FF licences that were pulled, one for items that were under active development.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/0...c-four-license-from-xm-studios-in-mid-sculpt/

And the FF had a complete ban in regards to sketch cards. Since you demand proof from other posters (while not holding yourself to these same standards), this article includes an actual Marvel memo!

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/0...uctions-not-to-use-fantastic-four-characters/

The ban was not fake.

 

[TheVileOne]

Bleeding Cool ran a series of articles regarding X-Men and FF licences that were pulled, one for items that were under active development.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/0...c-four-license-from-xm-studios-in-mid-sculpt/

And the FF had a complete ban in regards to sketch cards. Since you demand proof from other posters (while not holding yourself to these same standards), this article includes an actual Marvel memo!

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/0...uctions-not-to-use-fantastic-four-characters/

The ban was not fake.

Same website published this story:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/1...n-fist-thunderbolts-and-the-marvel-civil-war/

And this story:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/1...more-complex-inhumans-iron-fist-and-staffers/

The ban was fake.

 

[wobbly]

Same website published this story:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/1...n-fist-thunderbolts-and-the-marvel-civil-war/

And this story:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/1...more-complex-inhumans-iron-fist-and-staffers/

The ban was fake.

The memo for FF characters being off limits was for real and that's backed up with not a single FF related character getting a slot in the 'Contest of Champions' game. You'd think the FF or Doctor Doom would surely be in the roster for a Marvel universe wide game, but the likes of the new Ms Marvel or Spider Gwen get the nod instead (as well as variants of the same characters).

And Bleeding Cool were not the only one's to notice:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davegon...nd-fantastic-four-merchandising/#7f8270c58571

 

[Zarex]

Same website published this story:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/1...n-fist-thunderbolts-and-the-marvel-civil-war/

And this story:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/1...more-complex-inhumans-iron-fist-and-staffers/

The ban was fake.

Both of the stories you linked to were labeled as "rumors" - one even went so far as to call them "wildly and possibly made up". The licensing ban, which was supported by confirmation from the licensees themselves and accompanied with written proof, were not.

Just like with your assertion that folks on these boards were convinced that the FF rights were being transferred at Comic Con, I am sure you will refuse to support your position that the ban, which was obvious to anyone with eyes, was fake.

 

[TheVileOne]

Both of the stories you linked to were labeled as "rumors" - one even went so far as to call them "wildly and possibly made up". The licensing ban, which was supported by confirmation from the licensees themselves and accompanied with written proof, were not.

Just like with your assertion that folks on these boards were convinced that the FF rights were being transferred at Comic Con, I am sure you will refuse to support your position that the ban, which was obvious to anyone with eyes, was fake.

More examples of illegitimacy of that website.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/01/01/disney-will-make-50-million-carrie-fishers-death/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/1...ally-confirms-wrestlemania-33-return-twitter/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/1...100000-existence-guardians-galaxy-easter-egg/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/1...-photos-guardians-galaxy-director-james-gunn/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/11/18/inhumans-tv-show-wont-even-vin-diesel-james-gunn-reports/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/11/18/james-gunn-dispels-rumors-foxmarvel-collaboration/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/11/13/frank-chos-genderless-wonder-woman-pre-canceled-dc/

 

[TheVileOne]

The memo for FF characters being off limits was for real and that's backed up with not a single FF related character getting a slot in the 'Contest of Champions' game. You'd think the FF or Doctor Doom would surely be in the roster for a Marvel universe wide game, but the likes of the new Ms Marvel or Spider Gwen get the nod instead (as well as variants of the same characters).

And Bleeding Cool were not the only one's to notice:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davegon...nd-fantastic-four-merchandising/#7f8270c58571

More proof the ban is fake. The so-called ban allegedly pertains to both X-Men and Fantastic Four. Contest of Champions has a heaping amount of X-Men and other Mutant characters beyond just Wolverine. So if this so called ban exists and you are going to ban all those characters from Contest of Champions, which you cite, why are they still allowed to use all those X-Men characters?

Also, this:

 

[Zarex]

More examples of illegitimacy of that website.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/01/01/disney-will-make-50-million-carrie-fishers-death/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/1...ally-confirms-wrestlemania-33-return-twitter/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/1...100000-existence-guardians-galaxy-easter-egg/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/1...-photos-guardians-galaxy-director-james-gunn/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/11/18/inhumans-tv-show-wont-even-vin-diesel-james-gunn-reports/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/11/18/james-gunn-dispels-rumors-foxmarvel-collaboration/

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/11/13/frank-chos-genderless-wonder-woman-pre-canceled-dc/

Just so you know, all of the "Jude Terror" articles are jokes.

And it in no way impacts the legitimacy of the other articles, which had sources on the record, documentation etc. Though it has loosened up to a certain degree recently, Marvel restricted the use of FOX controlled Marvel characters in all licensing agreements, and flat out banned them for many uses. Disney Infinity characters, Marvel Secret Wars T Shirts, film tie ins. The proof is obvious if your eyes are open.

 

[TheVileOne]

Just so you know, all of the "Jude Terror" articles are jokes.

Exactly my point. A joke indeed.

And it in no way impacts the legitimacy of the other articles, which had sources on the record, documentation etc. Though it has loosened up to a certain degree recently, Marvel restricted the use of FOX controlled Marvel characters in all licensing agreements, and flat out banned them for many uses. Disney Infinity characters, Marvel Secret Wars T Shirts, film tie ins. The proof is obvious if your eyes are open.

Yes it does since the website reports false news on a repeated basis. A lot of those rumors have turned out to be fake or not true at all.

The use obviously wasn't completely restricted. X-Men characters continued showing up in Marvel Legends and Contest of Champions.

Maybe it's less a matter of banning characters and more of Marvel wanting to focus on and promote the characters it does fully control and have suddenly become way more popular than the X-Men and Fantastic Four.

For Disney Infinity, pretty much everything in the game Marvel related came from a new cartoon, movie or property Disney and Marvel were wanting to push at the time. The Spider-May playset and figures largely were inspired by Ultimate Spider-Man. You had Avengers sets to go with Age of Ultron and Civil War. You had Guardians of the Galaxy for the Guardians of the Galaxy movie. You had Ant-Man figures for Ant-Man etc.

 

[ADollarADay]

Marvel or Disney will never come out and say they've implemented such a ban. Evidence points to it being real though. Especially when it comes to videogames. I would dig up a very well researched neogaf post on this subject, but I'm lazy and won't do it. If you think there's nothing there, then let's agree to disagree on this topic.

 

[Xeno]

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com/post/93403610623/so-i-will-ask-a-different-question-why-isnt

So I will ask a different question. Why isn't there any X-Men cartoons? Why wasn't there any licensing for DOFP. WHY isn't there Goldball toys or any new X-Men toys? Oh and of course No real X-News at the Cup o Joe panel. Thanks foe your time
comicbookman1

You’re talking about issues involving licensing and animation, and those are questions you’d need to ask to our people that oversee those areas.

I will say two things, though, both of which are pretty self-evident, I think.

1) There are only so many hours in the day, and so many initiatives you can have going at once,. So you need to pick and choose where you want to spend your time and your efforts.

2) If you had two things, and on one you earned 100% of the revenues from the efforts that you put into making it, and the other you earned a much smaller percentage for the same amount of time and effort, you’d be more likely to concentrate more heavily on the first, wouldn’t you?

The above is from Tom Brevoort's site. He admits that Marvel doesn't market certain properties. That should be the definitive statement on the subject.

 

[TheVileOne]

Again that's not really a company wide ban. It's simply a shift from Marvel to give more focus and money behind the properties they can completely control and brand. The films are a big part of that, and they don't control X-Men and Fantastic Four where films are concerned. It's clearly not absolute either.

 

[Docker2.0]

Again that's not really a company wide ban. It's simply a shift from Marvel to give more focus and money behind the properties they can completely control and brand. The films are a big part of that, and they don't control X-Men and Fantastic Four where films are concerned. It's clearly not absolute either.

Are you actually hoping the rights get reverted? Honestly, it seems like you only come here just to a contrarian and dash any hopes of those who want Marvel to get the rights back.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Does it really matter if there are no FF and X-Men products or there are almost no FF and X-Men products?

The net effect is the same. Go to any toy store and you will have a very hard time finding any X-Men or FF merchandise.

And is anyone actually claiming there is an "absolute" ban?

 

[wobbly]

More proof the ban is fake. The so-called ban allegedly pertains to both X-Men and Fantastic Four. Contest of Champions has a heaping amount of X-Men and other Mutant characters beyond just Wolverine. So if this so called ban exists and you are going to ban all those characters from Contest of Champions, which you cite, why are they still allowed to use all those X-Men characters?

Also, this:

Read my post again, I said FF characters being off limits: That memo to trading card artists specifically stated no use of the FF and related characters, not the X-Men.

Some X-Men stuff has been cancelled (the diorama thing), and they have been removed from some merch with art that originally included them, but they are still big enough names for Marvel to use them in other media (in their comic form, not any movie based variant) and to make new toys: There's a new line of X-Men toys coming out this year from Hasbro.

The same cannot be said for the Fantastic Four. You can still find old stuff online, but anything new?

More fuel to the FF merch fire:

http://marveltoynews.com/marvel-select-watcher-figure-reissue-cancelled/

The Watcher was on the list in that memo btw.

Bottom line: X-Men merch and games based on the comic versions is still being made, but still nothing based on the movie versions. Fantastic Four merch of any kind it seems remains 'off limits'.

 

[Dark Raven]

Does it really matter if there are no FF and X-Men products or there are almost no FF and X-Men products?

The net effect is the same. Go to any toy store and you will have a very hard time finding any X-Men or FF merchandise.

And is anyone actually claiming there is an "absolute" ban?

It does matter if there are almost no FF and X-Men products, because that allows people to go waste gas on an elusive state-wide hunt across stores in the hope to find that one product that may or may not even exist. If there are no products whatsoever, they have to sit at home cursing their luck.

 

[wobbly]

Does it really matter if there are no FF and X-Men products or there are almost no FF and X-Men products?

The net effect is the same. Go to any toy store and you will have a very hard time finding any X-Men or FF merchandise.

And is anyone actually claiming there is an "absolute" ban?

I'm not. Easy to say an 'absolute ban' is fake when it's obvious it's not: The Contest of Champions game and new toys from Hasbro show the X-Men are clearly still on the table for new merch and games (based on the comic versions that is).

Not so easy to ignore that the FF has been relegated to virtually nothing new since 2014, or since that memo leaked.

And it is the FF that concerns us here. X-Men are not going anywhere, we all know that and Marvel knows that.

The FF though is another matter.

 

[DyfeddRex]

Does anyone know if Marvel gets a peek at what Fox does with the x-men and FF early on in production? 'Cause, to me, that might be why the FF disappeared from merch, as the bullpen of marketing might have said "oh, hell no, keep that stench off them for the future of the IP" when they saw what was coming out in 4shtick.

 

[Zarex]

I don't know when Marvel gets included in the process, though Feige has commented that they are much less involved with the FOX films than they were with Sony's Spidey franchise. But outside of some XM:FC minimates, Marvel hasn't produced tie-in products for FOX films since XMO:W. Which was the last film produced before the Disney buy-out.

But don't call it a ban! It's definitely not a ban! No siree! How about we call it a strategic disinvestment in character families with previous outside licensing entanglements?

 

[TheVileOne]

Are you actually hoping the rights get reverted? Honestly, it seems like you only come here just to a contrarian and dash any hopes of those who want Marvel to get the rights back.

Yes. I simply don't believe they already have reverted.

 

[Zarex]

Yes. I simply don't believe they already have reverted.

Which would be the opinion of most of the posters on this thread. I am one of the few who think that Disney/Marvel wouldn't have agreed to the X-Men TV deal without characters coming back in exchange. And that at the very least the FF character family will be reverting in time for Phase 4. And if it turns out that the X-Men deal and upcoming FF reversion were completely unrelated you are welcome to your "I told you sos."

 

[Spiderine]

Some of us believe the reversion was set to a later date sometime within the next 3 years or so just in time for phase 4. And no attempts at producing another farce. This would allow FOX to make sure Marvel upholds their end of the bargain for a proper launch of its tv shows since its a collaboration. And also hold on to some key characters Marvel may want in its possession like EGO giving FOX wiggle room for a trade. I assume that would be the year 2020