The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 7

[Willie Lumpkin]

The rumor they wouldn't be in there was more or less speculation from POLYGON. They didn't clarify their sources said no X-Men or Fantastic Four characters.

As I said earlier, character ban on X-Men and Fantastic Four by Marvel has NEVER been absolute.

The question that interests me: "Is the relationship between Fox and Marvel as bad as it was in 2014 or has it improved?"

I would like to see an improved relationship because that could lead to sanity and some sort of deal.

If X-Men and FF characters won't be in the game, that could indicate that we're no better off than we were in 2014. If the characters are included in the game, that could mean the relationship is improving.

I was disappointed when the initial rumors indicated no FF or X-Men characters. This one is more encouraging, but both are rumors and both directly contradict one another. But this latest rumor makes things a little more interesting.

 

[TheVileOne]

Maybe it was never really that bad, and it's just fans and the press blowing things out of proportion. Maybe it's just business, and sometimes negotiations are strict and tough and it's part of doing business.

On the other hand Willie Lumpkin, if they are in the game, that might not be an indication of anything. X-Men and FF characters were still in the last game that came out in 2011. Fantastic Four did show up in Hulk and the Agents of SMASH. Thing and Wolverine showed up multiple times in Ultimate Spider-Man.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Maybe it was never really that bad, and it's just fans and the press blowing things out of proportion. Maybe it's just business, and sometimes negotiations are strict and tough and it's part of doing business.

On the other hand Willie Lumpkin, if they are in the game, that might not be an indication of anything. X-Men and FF characters were still in the last game that came out in 2011. Fantastic Four did show up in Hulk and the Agents of SMASH. Thing and Wolverine showed up multiple times in Ultimate Spider-Man.

If we go all the way back to the ancient history of 2011, there was still an FF comic book in print. That was only 2 years after Disney bought Marvel.

I would just like to see some signs of life regarding the FF at Marvel whether it's in this video game or a revived comic-book or hopefully a combination of a number of things. I had feared that FF might just drop off the face of the earth.

 

[TheVileOne]

Also just FYI, the actual Fantastic Four never actually appeared in Marvel vs. Capcom, just Doctor Doom, Galactus and Super Skrull.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Also just FYI, the actual Fantastic Four never actually appeared in Marvel vs. Capcom, just Doctor Doom, Galactus and Super Skrull.

Thanks. Good to know. I know next to nothing about the game. Just curious what characters they'll feature and what, if anything, that might indicate about broader long-term directions.

 

[ADollarADay]

The rumor they wouldn't be in there was more or less speculation from POLYGON. They didn't clarify their sources said no X-Men or Fantastic Four characters.

As I said earlier, character ban on X-Men and Fantastic Four by Marvel has NEVER been absolute.

Polygon did say absolutely no XMen, never mentioned no FF.

The ban on videogames has never been admitted by Marvel, and one should never expect them to do so. Go to the biggest gaming forums on the net, neogaf.com, and read some of the Marvel vs Capcom threads. Very detailed explanation and evidence on the ban.

The source for XMen and FF characters as DLC is also a neogaf user btw.

 

[TheVileOne]

Polygon did say absolutely no XMen, never mentioned no FF.

The ban on videogames has never been admitted by Marvel, and one should never expect them to do so. Go to the biggest gaming forums on the net, neogaf.com, and read some of the Marvel vs Capcom threads. Very detailed explanation and evidence on the ban.

The source for XMen and FF characters as DLC is also a neogaf user btw.

No they didn't.

http://www.polygon.com/2016/11/28/13749536/marvel-vs-capcom-4-news

Fans of the series should expect Marvel vs. Capcom 4's roster of Marvel characters to draw strongly from the cinematic universe that Marvel Studios has popularized — and has full control over — during the past decade. That means fighting game fans will more likely see characters plucked from The Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy films, and not from properties like the X-Men. Expect to see superheroes like Ant-Man and Groot make appearances, with characters of mutant origin — think Wolverine and Magneto — sitting out this entry.

They never say it's absolutely going to be this way. They said "more likley."

 

[ADollarADay]

No they didn't.

http://www.polygon.com/2016/11/28/13749536/marvel-vs-capcom-4-news



They never say it's absolutely going to be this way. They said "more likley."

Sure, if you want to play semantics...

Bottom line, and even using your source, they said to not expect any XMen. And like I said, they never mentioned FF. You can also check the twitter of the polygon author, where he reiterated no XMen and that he hadn't heard anything about FF.

 

[TheVileOne]

Either way it's still not absolute. I will believe there are no X-Men when I see it for myself.

 

[Zarex]

They could have also asked for a higher royalty fee for the XMen movies. I think they get 5% of the gross for deadpool and way less than that for XMen movies. Getting a higher fee from XMen movies would give them more leverage in future negotiations.

It's possible. But that seems to me to be a worse deal for both parties. FOX is giving up real money here, not phoney baloney earnings from an FF character family that hasn't brought in a dime in well over a decade. And Marvel stands to generate more revenue from reacquiring characters than they would getting a bigger slice of the X-Men pie. It makes much more sense for both parties to simply trade rights, just like they did in the NTAW/Ego deal.

 

[wobbly]

The question that interests me: "Is the relationship between Fox and Marvel as bad as it was in 2014 or has it improved?"

I would like to see an improved relationship because that could lead to sanity and some sort of deal.

If X-Men and FF characters won't be in the game, that could indicate that we're no better off than we were in 2014. If the characters are included in the game, that could mean the relationship is improving.

I was disappointed when the initial rumors indicated no FF or X-Men characters. This one is more encouraging, but both are rumors and both directly contradict one another. But this latest rumor makes things a little more interesting.

I would think things have improved, however I think its 'baby steps' atm.

Reason for thinking this is that since 2009 neither Disney or Fox seemed willing to agree on deal with each other at all (Fox passing on the Galactus for DD extension thing for one) and we did see Fox Movie merch dry up to next to nothing, plus the altering of artwork that originally included Fox held characters, and the FF book canned and put on an extended 'haitis'.

But over the last year we have seen the TV deal get approved (would have been unthinkable not so long ago) and Feige has taken the Movie side out from under Perlmutters interference, now reporting directly to Bob Iger (and it seems Ike is the one with the biggest issue when it comes to Fox)

With that in mind its worth noting Feige started with Fox (he was appointed by Lauren Shuler Donner for the first X-Men before becoming Arid's 2nd in command for Marvel movies). Feige went on to hold co-executive producer credits on all of Fox's marvel films up until FF2: ROTSS.

So it stands to reason he knows fell well how Fox works, he obviously knows people there and probably gets on fine with some key players.

This could have been the key for the TV deal. While marvel comics and TV do remain under Ike's dominion, the deal would have involved amending the 1993 contract, which is for the movies. As such I doubt Ike had any say in the matter, and it was probably Iger, Feige and a few legal sharks who handled it (I figure if Ike were involved it probably wouldn't have happened).

Now this doesn't mean that having been at odds for years they had a 'Martha' moment and are suddenly besties, but it is a sign that both can come to acceptable terms and deal.

That being said, I would not expect to see a dramatic shift in the current status quo beyond the X-verse TV series for a while yet, I doubt Marvel will re-introduce tie in merch for Fox's efforts anytime soon, and they will probably continue to promote their own movie characters in merch and other media ahead of anything from FF or X-Men. And any bts trades will remain as secret as the Ego one was.

So while I think they are at least willing to sit down for potential deals, I don't think we will see the fruits of them (at least for what Marvel gets from them) for some time yet (unless someone spills the beans, as Deadpool's screenwriter did with Ego).

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I would think things have improved, however I think its 'baby steps' atm.

Reason for thinking this is that since 2009 neither Disney or Fox seemed willing to agree on deal with each other at all (Fox passing on the Galactus for DD extension thing for one) and we did see Fox Movie merch dry up to next to nothing, plus the altering of artwork that originally included Fox held characters, and the FF book canned and put on an extended 'haitis'.

But over the last year we have seen the TV deal get approved (would have been unthinkable not so long ago) and Feige has taken the Movie side out from under Perlmutters interference, now reporting directly to Bob Iger (and it seems Ike is the one with the biggest issue when it comes to Fox)

With that in mind its worth noting Feige started with Fox (he was appointed by Lauren Shuler Donner for the first X-Men before becoming Arid's 2nd in command for Marvel movies). Feige went on to hold co-executive producer credits on all of Fox's marvel films up until FF2: ROTSS.

So it stands to reason he knows fell well how Fox works, he obviously knows people there and probably gets on fine with some key players.

This could have been the key for the TV deal. While marvel comics and TV do remain under Ike's dominion, the deal would have involved amending the 1993 contract, which is for the movies. As such I doubt Ike had any say in the matter, and it was probably Iger, Feige and a few legal sharks who handled it (I figure if Ike were involved it probably wouldn't have happened).

Now this doesn't mean that having been at odds for years they had a 'Martha' moment and are suddenly besties, but it is a sign that both can come to acceptable terms and deal.

That being said, I would not expect to see a dramatic shift in the current status quo beyond the X-verse TV series for a while yet, I doubt Marvel will re-introduce tie in merch for Fox's efforts anytime soon, and they will probably continue to promote their own movie characters in merch and other media ahead of anything from FF or X-Men. And any bts trades will remain as secret as the Ego one was.

So while I think they are at least willing to sit down for potential deals, I don't think we will see the fruits of them (at least for what Marvel gets from them) for some time yet (unless someone spills the beans, as Deadpool's screenwriter did with Ego).

This is how I felt a few months ago, but then Gunn and Feige made some comments that seemed pretty discouraging and then the rumor that X-Men and FF wouldn't be in the game seemed to be another bit of evidence that Marvel was taking a hard stance.

Hopefully we will see some X-Men and FF characters in the game. That won't necessarily indicate a seismic shift, but it would be more encouraging than seeing both FF and X-Men apparently being phased out of everything.

... oh, and I love your use of "Martha Moment". We need to make that a thing.

And on a somewhat related topic, does anyone know the status of the FF comic book. I thought I had heard that a new FF book was coming, but I just did some searches and I'm either not searching the right thing or wrong in my memory/interpretation of what I heard.

Can anyone offer anything solid regarding the plans for an FF comic-book?

 

[DyfeddRex]

My hopes are stirred by the fact that the characters are still in the comics, even if split up at the present (not the first time, as with any family, Marvel's First Family has broken up before, most notably in the original Civil War comics) and the introduction of the ResurreXion comics for the X-Men characters, which, if they were still in the trench warfare state, would not have happened as part of a "cut-off their base" strategy to starve out Fox, not giving them any new material to look towards in their movies after the big arcs are done.

This said, I have to admit that all I have is hope that the FF come home somehow, and that Feige has the story to make it work in the lockbox of the Marvel Studios Bullpen.

 

[wobbly]

This is how I felt a few months ago, but then Gunn and Feige made some comments that seemed pretty discouraging and then the rumor that X-Men and FF wouldn't be in the game seemed to be another bit of evidence that Marvel was taking a hard stance.

Hopefully we will see some X-Men and FF characters in the game. That won't necessarily indicate a seismic shift, but it would be more encouraging than seeing both FF and X-Men apparently being phased out of everything.

I doubt Gunn would be in the loop tbh. He'd know the score with the characters he chooses to use for GOTG (and twice now he has chosen ones Marvel couldn't use), but anything else (rights for characters he is not using) would likely be beyond his 'pay grade'.

Feige's comments, taken literally as to the question asked, is simply that Marvel having a Sony type collaboration with Fox is an 'impossibility at this juncture'. That doesn't rule out trades, reversions, or other deals. Just means Marvel making a film for Fox, as they are doing with Sony, is not possible (at this juncture).

I would have taken that for granted in any event as Fox are obviously not in the same precarious position Sony left themselves in after TASM2.

... oh, and I love your use of "Martha Moment". We need to make that a thing.

Lol t: I think it already is tbh (seen numerous gifs/memes poking fun at that one)

Gifs with Feige's face pasted over Doctor Strange saying "Fox!! I've come to bargain" is another one I've seen doing the rounds

And on a somewhat related topic, does anyone know the status of the FF comic book. I thought I had heard that a new FF book was coming, but I just did some searches and I'm either not searching the right thing or wrong in my memory/interpretation of what I heard.

Can anyone offer anything solid regarding the plans for an FF comic-book?

Afaik they are still on an indefinite 'haitis'. Can't say I've seen anything about them coming back (they might be doing something outside of the 'new' 616 stuff perhaps?).

 

[Dark Raven]

This is how I felt a few months ago, but then Gunn and Feige made some comments that seemed pretty discouraging and then the rumor that X-Men and FF wouldn't be in the game seemed to be another bit of evidence that Marvel was taking a hard stance.

Hopefully we will see some X-Men and FF characters in the game. That won't necessarily indicate a seismic shift, but it would be more encouraging than seeing both FF and X-Men apparently being phased out of everything.

... oh, and I love your use of "Martha Moment". We need to make him a thing.

And on a somewhat related topic, does anyone know the status of the FF comic book. I thought I had heard that a new FF book was coming, but I just did some searches and I'm either not searching the right thing or wrong in my memory/interpretation of what I heard.

Can anyone offer anything solid regarding the plans for an FF comic-book?

Fant4fixed.

 

[wobbly]

Juts knocked this one up, let me know if it works?

 

[ehh]

Fant4fixed.

It's fantastic!

What'd you say?

I said it's fantastic.

Wait, guys I got it...

 

[Zarex]

So while I think they are at least willing to sit down for potential deals, I don't think we will see the fruits of them (at least for what Marvel gets from them) for some time yet (unless someone spills the beans, as Deadpool's screenwriter did with Ego).

Whoever signed off on the X-Men deal is playing it very close to the vest. We don't know what Marvel received for compensation. We also don't know what FOX received.

Is the deal for one, two, three or a half-dozen programs? Or did Marvel grant unlimited live action TV rights? What is Marvel's ownership interest, if any, in these shows? Is the deal "in perpetuity" like the movies, or does it terminate on a date certain? Are there restrictions on air times, content, characters and so forth? None of this was reported.

The reason I am "keeping hope alive" that the FF were involved in the transaction is that precious little has actually been disclosed. Marvel and FOX have done an excellent job keeping this deal under wraps.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Juts knocked this one up, let me know if it works?

 

[wobbly]

Whoever signed off on the X-Men deal is playing it very close to the vest. We don't know what Marvel received for compensation. We also don't know what FOX received.

Is the deal for one, two, three or a half-dozen programs? Or did Marvel grant unlimited live action TV rights? What is Marvel's ownership interest, if any, in these shows? Is the deal "in perpetuity" like the movies, or does it terminate on a date certain? Are there restrictions on air times, content, characters and so forth? None of this was reported.

The reason I am "keeping hope alive" that the FF were involved in the transaction is that precious little has actually been disclosed. Marvel and FOX have done an excellent job keeping this deal under wraps.

I highly doubt Disney would have been daft enough to have given Fox full freedom to the CB TV kingdom. So I'd guess that the current deal is provisionally for the 2 shows, with the option to do more if they do well (which could be subject to further negotiations. Ie: Fox might need Disney's consent again for additional shows, which in turn could/should warrant further concessions from Fox).

I'd think even for the 2 shows being made it is highly doubtful there is any 'perpetuity' thing this time around. Disney would be more than wise to the pitfalls of that onerous clause.

Restrictions on air times, content, characters etc is a good question. Seems likely Disney would have insisted there's no conflict in scheduling (like airing Legion at the same time as AOS or any other Disney property that caters to the same core demographics for example).

The major Movie characters (which have covered the core X-Men team for the most part) might be off limits for appearances, though references to them (Xavier being named dropped seems an obvious one) is probably allowed. More minor characters that have been in the flicks could turn up though, with a clause in the t&c's that any such appearances have zero bearing on the existing movie deadlines.

All this being said, it's pure guesswork on my part. But It does stand to reason that Disney would have made sure they didn't get shafted by this deal, with whatever was involved in the negotiations leaving them in a better position now rather than worse.

And before someone says Disney are getting money etc etc from it, the key thing to remember is this is what Fox wanted. They went to Disney cap in hand asking for this deal.

With that in mind a little business 101: If you have something that another company wants, you make them ante up as much as you can get away with. That's exactly how Fox hosed the old guard at Marvel in the first place and landed these one sided contracts. In the promise of making films (which Marvel wanted big time) they threw in t&c's that Disney would laugh at. That aint gonna fly now.

And agreed on both of them playing it all very close to their chests (as they have always done). It might be easy to think they couldn't possibly keep big changes a secret, but they have successfully restricted our knowledge of the original contacts details to what was revealed in the Mutant X lawsuit, and these contracts have been in play since the 90's.

I figure their are some solid NDA's in place on these things and knowledge of what goes down is kept to a select few. Deadpool's screenwriter letting the Ego trade slip was probably not welcomed at all by the higher ups at Fox. Disney (or more specifically Gunn) who had more reason to crow over that one, didn't say anything until after the cat was out of the bag,

 

[Zarex]

And agreed on both of them playing it all very close to their chests (as they have always done). It might be easy to think they couldn't possibly keep big changes a secret, but they have successfully restricted our knowledge of the original contacts details to what was revealed in the Mutant X lawsuit, and these contracts have been in play since the 90's.

It appears as though Marvel lost the ability to use the word "mutant" in live action television and film as part of the Mutant X settlement. The deal may also have extended the turn around period between FOX releases from five to seven years. But you are correct - we don't know the exact terms of the arrangement. Just as we don't know the terms of the X-Men TV deal. Those claiming otherwise are lying.

 

[Dark Raven]

I could probably tell you exactly what it says in the mutant X case. I have the actual legal document/ law case somewhere filed away.

 

[Zarex]

I could probably tell you exactly what it says in the mutant X case. I have the actual legal document/ law case somewhere filed away.

I've read the legal doc. But the settlement came later and was not disclosed by either party.

 

[wobbly]

Afaik the below remains the only big 'reveal' on anything with Fox's contracts on Marvels properties (from the court papers of the Mutant X lawsuit):
​

"The “X-Men” comic book series, referred to in the Agreement as the “Property,” includes the X-Men Characters, specifically the “core” Characters and the Characters of the “X-Universe”; their origin stories; storylines from individual comic books; and “all other elements relating to the Property and the Characters.” The rights granted to Fox included “the right to use the title (or subtitle or portion of the title) of the Property or any component of the Property as the title of any Picture or related exploitation.” The Agreement reserved all television rights to Marvel, subject to a proviso, critical to Fox's pending contract claim, that Marvel would not “produce, distribute or exploit or authorize the production, distribution or exploitation of any live-action motion picture” without Fox's consent (the “Freeze&#8221."

​

It's unlikely the above was changed significantly by the ensuing settlement, though an amendment defining who can use the term 'Mutant' was probably agreed upon as part of it (the term 'Mutant' itself cannot be copyrighted any more than 'Human' can).

In all of Marvels efforts so far I think they avoid anything like 'mutant', 'mutation' or 'mutated' as any description for the powered up characters? (even when obviously applicable, like the Hulk).

The only other thing I know of is this concerning licensing (this was from Marvel's own financial reports around 2007):

"Feature Films. We have licensed various Marvel characters to major motion picture studios for use in motion pictures. For example, we currently have licenses with Twentieth Century Fox to produce motion pictures featuring characters, including The Fantastic Four and X-Men. We also have outstanding licenses with studios for a number of our other characters, including Spider-Man, Deathlok, Namor and The Punisher. Under these licenses, we retain control over merchandising rights and retain more than 50% of merchandising-based royalty revenue."​

If anyone has more I'd like to see it.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Under these licenses, we retain control over merchandising rights and retain more than 50% of merchandising-based royalty revenue.

I find this statement very interesting.

My assumption up until this point was that Marvel would have full merchandising rights on the characters as they appear in Marvel comics and limited merchandising rights for the actual film characters (so if they wanted to do, for example, a Wolverine action figure that looked like Hugh Jackman, they would have to pay Fox some percentage and likely get Fox's permission but if they wanted to do a Wolverine action figure that looked like the comic-book character, they could do that entirely on their own).

The above wording (and maybe I'm reading too much into it) makes me wonder if Marvel can make whatever they want, but they have to give Fox a cut on characters licensed to Fox (possibly even with comic-designs as well as designs that are closer to the films).

It would be very interesting to know what those merchandising agreements include if anybody has any additional information.

I have always sort of assumed that Fox insisted on unique costumes partly to prevent Marvel from being able to sell comic-based toys that look similar to the movie characters. But based on this wording, I'm wondering if no matter what version of Reed Richards Marvel sells, they have to give a cut to Fox. (that sort of simple arrangement would be much easier to enforce than what I was imagining).

And while the statement says Marvel keeps "more than 50%", I'm guessing it's close to 50% or they would have said "more than 60%" or "more than 70%".

If Marvel is paying anything close to 50%, the lack of Fox merchandise might be far less about friction between the two studios and much more about simple math. Why waste time with Fox characters when they have plenty of Marvel characters to sell and they keep everything on those?

It could also explain the Secret Wars design. If they left the Fox characters on the shirt, they might have to give Fox a big cut. It sort of makes sense to cut them out in that case.