The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 8

[R_Hythlodeus]

You'd think that after 17 years, that fans would have a little more faith in what FOX is doing with the X-men franchise.

Yeah, 17 years that gave us Last Stand, Origins, The Wolverine, DOFP, Apocalypse...
I have complete faith they have at least a 50% chance to f**k this up

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

You'd think that after 17 years, that fans would have a little more faith in what FOX is doing with the X-men franchise.

Why does Fox make terrible Fantastic Four films and okay X-Men films? Is that by design? I don't think so. I think it's a matter of Fox not understanding how to make good Marvel films and, in some cases, having the right director who can make it work despite Fox's general cluelessness.

In the case of X-Men, Bryan Singer is the primary reason the films have done reasonably well. Is there another Bryan Singer waiting in the wings? Maybe, maybe not. It's just as likely we'll get a Brett Ratner or Tim Story or Josh Trank as Bryan Singer, and if the director happens to be a loser, the studio won't understand what they should be doing to put the bad director in the right direction.

That's an institutional problem that makes it impossible for any objective observer to have faith in their future.

 

[Dark Raven]

Why does Fox make terrible Fantastic Four films and okay X-Men films? Is that by design? I don't think so. I think it's a matter of Fox not understanding how to make good Marvel films and, in some cases, having the right director who can make it work despite Fox's general cluelessness.

In the case of X-Men, Bryan Singer is the primary reason the films have done reasonably well. Is there another Bryan Singer waiting in the wings? Maybe, maybe not. It's just as likely we'll get a Brett Ratner or Tim Story or Josh Trank as Bryan Singer, and if the director happens to be a loser, the studio won't understand what they should be doing to put the bad director in the right direction.

That's an institutional problem that makes it impossible for any objective observer to have faith in their future.

Yes. His name is Simon Kinberg.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Yes. His name is Simon Kinberg.

And that's why, as crazy as it sounds, I can't simply dismiss the Kinberg rumor.

Fox has shown me over the years they really can be that dumb.

 

[Dark Raven]

Here's Fox's Trank-Kin-Stein Monster:

Or here's another one they tried earlier:

 

[Spiderine]

Why does Fox make terrible Fantastic Four films and okay X-Men films? Is that by design? I don't think so. I think it's a matter of Fox not understanding how to make good Marvel films and, in some cases, having the right director who can make it work despite Fox's general cluelessness.

In the case of X-Men, Bryan Singer is the primary reason the films have done reasonably well. Is there another Bryan Singer waiting in the wings? Maybe, maybe not. It's just as likely we'll get a Brett Ratner or Tim Story or Josh Trank as Bryan Singer, and if the director happens to be a loser, the studio won't understand what they should be doing to put the bad director in the right direction.

That's an institutional problem that makes it impossible for any objective observer to have faith in their future.

XMEN has had the same basic themes in just about all their films. Its remained fairly constant. Singer did a good job of executing it. The problem is wash rince repeat. Growing stale

They struggle with the FF and those fantastical sci fi elements. Outside of Johnny and Ben in the Story films they dont get the characters at all. If you cant get that close at the very least you already lost the audience. And they have taken Marvel most well known villain and turned him into a cinematic joke.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

XMEN has had the same basic themes in just about all their films. Its remained fairly constant. Singer did a good job of executing it. The problem is wash rince repeat. Growing stale

Exactly. So going forward, they could try to imitate what Singer did, and might be able to do that fairly successfully, but that's not sustainable because we've already seen it.

And if they get creative and go in a different direction, they're as likely to go wrong as right.

Unlike Marvel, we can't point to Fox's history and see how they go through different directors with different characters and different themes and consistently produce good films.

 

[InCali]

For most X-Men fans too.

I thought everyone thought he was a genius and is very happy to have him in the fold. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere so it must be true.

 

[InCali]

X-men are not great in the hands of Fox. Logan and Deadpool was directly from the star and director's involvement. I REALLY think they are at a crossroad when it comes to this franchise. For a franchise that has been running for 15+ years to NEVER have a billion dollar movie despite both Marvel and DC doing it multiple times says a lot. Also their "event" in DOFP with all of the big names in one movie and the X-men mega villain Apocalypse still under achieving............sorry but this franchise is not in a good place right now. I'd argue with the MCU expanding and the threat of DCCU growing, I say they are may get left behind.

Yeah. I tend to agree and we'll see. To me, Jackman was clearly the rock of the X world and now that he's gone???

 

[InCali]

But Kang probably beats Doom one on one in the middle of the desert no?

Never put ANYTHING past Doom.

So much fun being gone a few days and catching up. t:

 

[InCali]

Rented this last night. Got about eighteen minutes in before my girlfriend told me to turn it off.

You must be REALLY HAWT.....

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

I have complete faith they have at least a 50% chance to f**k this up

They released X-Men Apocalypse last year.

Why does Fox make terrible Fantastic Four films and okay X-Men films? Is that by design?

They scream out their failures and whisper their accomplishments.


No matter if FoX makes great films like Logan, DoFP, FC, or Deadpool it'll always be Last Stand & Origins that gets brought up no matter what.

Jackman was clearly the rock of the X world and now that he's gone???

Focus on the thousand other amazing X characters for a change?

Is there another Bryan Singer waiting in the wings? Maybe, maybe not.

Jim Mangold, Joe Carnahan, Josh Boone, David Leitch?

 

[The Overlord]

Exactly. So going forward, they could try to imitate what Singer did, and might be able to do that fairly successfully, but that's not sustainable because we've already seen it.

And if they get creative and go in a different direction, they're as likely to go wrong as right.

Unlike Marvel, we can't point to Fox's history and see how they go through different directors with different characters and different themes and consistently produce good films.

Except at this point, Fox has a better track record then DC does.

Yeah FFINO was God awful and X-Men Apocalypse was disappointment, but we have had great films from this decade like First Class, Days of Future Past and Logan. The Wolverine was just mediocre though.

What has DC done this decade, an okay finish to the Nolan Batman series, a mediocre Superman film and 3 of the worst super hero films ever (Batman v Superman, Green Lantern and Suicide Squad), sure FFINO was worse then those films, but at least Fox track record is hit or miss, rather then stinker after stinker.

Sure Fox is not doing as good as Marvel, but they are doing better then DC and let's face it, Marvel would never make movies like Logan and Deadpool. So Fox is in the middle of pack in terms of making comic book films, doing better then DC, but not as good as Marvel.

At this point, I would hope Fox sells FF back to Marvel at a decent price and then Marvel and Fox work together a bit more closely on the X-Men franchise.

Fox clearly does not understand the FF and cannot do anything good with them, but Fox has some understanding on the X-Men work and really the X-Men are such a huge franchise, they could support their own universe.

 

[InCali]

Yeah. I tend to agree and we'll see. To me, Jackman was clearly the rock of the X world and now that he's gone???

Focus on the thousand other amazing X characters for a change?

I put forward a question and an entirely legitimate one. I'm not entirely focused on Jackman leaving nor will I entirely focus on the other (thousand???) amazing X characters when I'm thinking about the future of the franchise. I'm trying to take an objective look at what the future holds.

I'm no X hater or doomsayer. I really liked the original 2 X movies, hated Last Stand and Origins. Loved FC and DoFP, but thought Apocalypse was meh. Haven't had a chance to see Logan, but am sure I'll like it. For me, Jackman, Stewart, and Mckellen were great with McAvoy and Fassbender not too far behind. "Most" everyone else was kind of, well, average. So, realistically, I think someone should be able to see why I have concern for the future of the franchise. I'm not going to "focus" on just the positive as I'm not interested in having a skewed perspective about what the future holds. When I go see a CBM, I'm in a completely different mind state and want to love the movie I'm going to see.

BTW, I think Legion is easily the best of the TV superhero shows (Not including the Netflix shows of course)

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Except at this point, Fox has a better track record then DC does.

Yeah FFINO was God awful and X-Men Apocalypse was disappointment, but we have had great films from this decade like First Class, Days of Future Past and Logan. The Wolverine was just mediocre though.

What has DC done this decade, an okay finish to the Nolan Batman series, a mediocre Superman film and 3 of the worst super hero films ever (Batman v Superman, Green Lantern and Suicide Squad), sure FFINO was worse then those films, but at least Fox track record is hit or miss, rather then sticker after stinker.

Sure Fox is not doing as good as Marvel, but they are doing better then DC and let's face it, Marvel would never make movies like Logan and Deadpool. So Fox is in the middle of pack in terms of making comic book films, doing better then DC, but not as good as Marvel.

At this point, I would hope Fox sells FF back to Marvel at a decent price and then Marvel and Fox work together a bit more closely on the X-Men franchise.

Fox clearly does not understand the FF and cannot do anything good with them, but Fox has some understanding on the X-Men work and really the X-Men are such a huge franchise, they could support their own universe.

DC is making some seriously crappy films. You're not going to get an argument from me there. But that's like saying, "Hey, I'm taller than Peter Dinklage."

If I were an X-Men fan, I'd be concerned. If I were a DC fan, I'd be on a ledge.

But I'm neither of those. I'm and FF fan which means I've gotten so used to crap films that I have a hard time believing I'll ever get an FF film as good as Last Stand.

 

[InCali]

DC is making some seriously crappy films. You're not going to get an argument from me there. But that's like saying, "Hey, I'm taller than Peter Dinklage."

If I were an X-Men fan, I'd be concerned. If I were a DC fan, I'd be on a ledge.

But I'm neither of those. I'm and FF fan which means I've gotten so used to crap films that I have a hard time believing I'll ever get an FF film as good as Last Stand.

Since you're a FF fan, you might as well ask that DC fan to move over and make some room for you.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Jim Mangold, Joe Carnahan, Josh Boone, David Leitch?

Exactly. Will those directors be Josh Trank or Bryan Singer? There's no way to tell at this moment.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Since you're a FF fan, you might as well ask that DC fan to move over and make some room for you.

There's no direction but up for me.

 

[InCali]

There's no direction but up for me.

Unfortunately for DC fans, they've still got Snyder steering the ship (though to be fair, some DC fans like what he's doing) so JL "could" be a step down. I think Fox would hire you or me before they brought back Trank, so, yeah, for the FF, I guess the ceiling is the roof....or something along those lines...

 

[The Overlord]

DC is making some seriously crappy films. You're not going to get an argument from me there. But that's like saying, "Hey, I'm taller than Peter Dinklage."

If I were an X-Men fan, I'd be concerned. If I were a DC fan, I'd be on a ledge.

But I'm neither of those. I'm and FF fan which means I've gotten so used to crap films that I have a hard time believing I'll ever get an FF film as good as Last Stand.

Fair enough, I am more of a general comic book fan, I like most franchises and want every franchise to get their moment in the sun.

I think the FF have gotten really screwed over, more so then any franchise at this point. I was hoping FF 2015 would have been good so we could have finally had a good FF film, but those hopes were dashed when I heard they wanted to make Doom a hacker.

Daredevil and Punisher have had some bad films, but have been redeemed on Netflix. Ghost Rider still has not gotten any redemption though. We will see if DC redeems Green Lantern in the future.

At this point, I am fine with Fox keeping the X-Men, I think they have have had more hits then misses and I don't care if X-Men film has not hit a billion dollars yet, as long as these film are good.

I also don't think the X-Men would fit in very well with the current tone of the MCU, I think X-Men is a darker franchise and I think Fox would push that envelope further then Marvel would. The FF fit the MCU tone far more then the X-Men do, so that is why I would want the FF back at Marvel.

I think Apocalypse was mediocre film because it tried to copy the Marvel formula and didn't do it well, thus having a giant CGI fest at the end and a big blue villain who has little personality beyond being "generic evil", Fox does better when they do something different

So in conclusion, I hope Fox sells FF to Marvel for a decent price, but keeps the X-Men films and works a little more closely with Marvel to make the X-Men franchise better.

The fact that we have a great X-Men show like Legion on the air and the fact that X-Men will have a show on Fox and maybe even new cartoon means that franchise seems to have some new life, but I will agree that FF has been screwed over and deserved better.

 

[InCali]

Fair enough, I am more of a general comic book fan, I like most franchises and want every franchise to get their moment in the sun.

I think the FF have gotten really screwed over, more so then any franchise at this point. I was hoping FF 2015 would have been good so we could have finally had a good FF film, but those hopes were dashed when I heard they wanted to make Doom a hacker.

Daredevil and Punisher have had some bad films, but have been redeemed on Netflix. Ghost Rider still has not gotten any redemption though. We will see if DC redeems Green Lantern in the future.

At this point, I am fine with Fox keeping the X-Men, I think they have have had more hits then misses and I don't care if X-Men film has not hit a billion dollars yet, as long as these film are good.

I also don't think the X-Men would fit in very well with the current tone of the MCU, I think X-Men is a darker franchise and I think Fox would push that envelope further then Marvel would. The FF fit the MCU tone far more then the X-Men do, so that is why I would want the FF back at Marvel.

I think Apocalypse was mediocre film because it tried to copy the Marvel formula and didn't do it well, thus having a giant CGI fest at the end and a big blue villain who has little personality beyond being "generic evil", Fox does better when they do something different

So in conclusion, I hope Fox sells FF to Marvel for a decent price, but keeps the X-Men films and works a little more closely with Marvel to make the X-Men franchise better.

The fact that we have a great X-Men show like Legion on the air and the fact that X-Men will have a show on Fox and maybe even new cartoon means that franchise seems to have some new life, but I will agree that FF has been screwed over and deserved better.

I can understand why people would want X-Men to remain at Fox, but I'd like to see them develop more consistency with regard to the quality of their movies. In my mind, there's definitely room for the edgier SH movies and, while I can't say for sure that Marvel would NOT semi-separate the franchises and make those movies, I don't mind the fact that Fox is on a slightly different track than Marvel. There's room for both.

But, god, please give the FF back to Marvel and let them make a cool FF movie. It reminds me of the LotR when Frodo and Sam were going to Mordor. They had been in a craggy place with sparse vegetation and the place they were at afterwards was so horrible, that Frodo remembered those uncomfortable, ugly surroundings as a place of beauty. That's how some FF fans probably feel about the first FF because of the last go round. I can't say for sure because I never went to see Fant4stic; and the FF are my favorite SH group (even above The Avengers). I couldn't bear to watch it because I felt sure it was going to be a PoS.

 

[The Overlord]

I can understand why people would want X-Men to remain at Fox, but I'd like to see them develop more consistency with regard to the quality of their movies. In my mind, there's definitely room for the edgier SH movies and, while I can't say for sure that Marvel would NOT semi-separate the franchises and make those movies, I don't mind the fact that Fox is on a slightly different track than Marvel. There's room for both.

But, god, please give the FF back to Marvel and let them make a cool FF movie. It reminds me of the LotR when Frodo and Sam were going to Mordor. They had been in a craggy place with sparse vegetation and the place they were at afterwards was so horrible, that Frodo remembered those uncomfortable, ugly surroundings as a place of beauty. That's how some FF fans probably feel about the first FF because of the last go round. I can't say for sure because I never went to see Fant4stic; and the FF are my favorite SH group (even above The Avengers). I couldn't bear to watch it because I felt sure it was going to be a PoS.

Well that's why I would like Fox and Marvel to work a little more closely on the X-Men franchise, to give it some more consistency, but keep it separate from the MCU, frankly I don't think the X-Men have been well integrated into the Marvel Universe in the comics since the 90s, so frankly I prefer the X-Men being in their own world, I think they work better separate from the rest of the Marvel.

Marvel/Disney would never sign off on something like Logan and Deadpool, so Marvel controlled the X-Men films, we wouldn't have had those two films.

I am hoping that Fox has learned something from their successes and failures with their movies. Clearly Fox should sell the FF back to marvel, because they do not understand that franchise, making a story darker works for Wolverine, but doesn't work for the FF and the first two films felt too light, that there was no weight or dramatic consequences. The best MCU movies balance a sense of fun with good drama and story telling, while the Fox FF films were either too dark or so light they seemed inconsequential.

Regarding the X-Men, I hope Fox moves away from overexposed characters like Wolverine, Magneto, Xavier and Mystique and focus on different characters and not try to copy the marvel formula like Apocalypse did. I like the more down beat movies like Logan and Deadpool, as a counterpoint to some of the more over the top comic book movies out there.

I am looking forward to spin off films like New Mutants and X-Force, not looking forward to Super Nova, because I don't really care about them trying to do the Phoenix Saga again, they already wasted their shot with that.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

At this point, I am fine with Fox keeping the X-Men, I think they have have had more hits then misses and I don't care if X-Men film has not hit a billion dollars yet, as long as these film are good.

I also don't think the X-Men would fit in very well with the current tone of the MCU, I think X-Men is a darker franchise and I think Fox would push that envelope further then Marvel would.

I agree, and I'm fine with X-Men staying at Fox. But I'm saying that partly because I'm not invested in X-Men.

And I am concerned that Fox seems somewhat rudderless at the moment. And hopefully Kinberg will never be more than a producer. If he takes a more active role, I think that could be very bad for the future.

 

[The Overlord]

I agree, and I'm fine with X-Men staying at Fox. But I'm saying that partly because I'm not invested in X-Men.

And I am concerned that Fox seems somewhat rudderless at the moment. And hopefully Kinberg will never be more than a producer. If he takes a more active role, I think that could be very bad for the future.

I am not sure I completely agree with Fox being rudderless, they have taken chances with Deadpool and Logan and those chances have paid off, frankly it seems to me they have found a way to make good comic book movies with the X-Men have a far different feel to them then the MCU films.

I think in regards to the X-Men, they have a misstep recently, but they can learn from that and they have been willing to take risks that both DC and Marvel would not.

For example I think Suicide Squad would have been better if it was rated R and had smaller stakes, rather then rated PG-13, having a powerful, but generic villain and an ending with a lot of CGI effects. WB should have copied Fox rather then Marvel with the Suicide Squad.

Apocalypse tried to copy the MCU formula and failed, Logan and Wolverine did their own thing and succeeded, clearly they should just do their own thing in regards to the X-Men, rather then trying to rip off the MCU. Even formula has been switching up the formula a bit with their new movies.

Regarding Fox and the X-Men the only thing that worries me is Fox trying to do the Phoenix Saga again, I am just not interested in that.

I think I want to see the X-Men spin offs rather then the main X-Men series, if all they are going to do is try to do the Phoenix Saga again.

Now FF at Fox is a mess, the only way to fix that is to give it to Marvel. I am still willing defend Fox over their handling of the X-Men, but I cannot defend their handling of the FF.

I also think the Netflix Daredevil series is proving Marvel is handling that character better then Fox did.

 

[Darepool]

I really don't think X-Men is a darker franchise in general, perhaps in portrayal on film to date with R rating like Logan. Deadpool is perfect.