The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread VI

[Godzilla2014]

I disagree, the trunks look better; Batman has had then since the beginning and looks more like Batman with them.

I disagree. The trunks look bad on Batman and they do not make him look any more like Batman than he does without them.

Actually, the trunks break up the human form, a point I made before Batman Begins. The cape is silly in that no one wears a cape and there is no realistic way that a cape wouldn't kill Batman in his first night out. The Incredibles had a lot of fun pointing out how silly capes are.

What? How the hell are they supposed to do that?

I'm glad you agree that the GA would accept capes.

The point is, capes are a different matter from trunks. One of these is essential to Batman's look. The other is not.

If you wanted to look like a bat, then wear wings. Stan Lee's version of Batman had wings. Capes are silly. Realistically, no one would be scared of a man dressed in black wearing a cape, certainly not a well armed criminal who would just shoot the caped man in the face (which is neither armored or camouflaged and, realistically, makes for a clear and easy target.

His cape becomes his wings, (at least in these films), and also, Stan Lee's Batman did wear a cape.

As far as being scary, the armed criminal might be afraid after he got his ass kicked by the armored badass in the costume, or hear of what he can do to them. Also, the cape evokes images of Dracula, and it signifies how different he is from other superheroes.
As for the face, that is not much of a problem. The head is actually a pretty hard to hit target, especially on a moving person such as Batman, so most schools of shooting will teach you to aim for center-mass. This is why soldiers' helmets don't cover their faces.

The do look good and always have. That's why so many superheroes have had trunks for so long.

This is based on subjective opinion, but I disagree with you. On Batman, they don't, and never have. To me, in most cases, they are, at best, inoffensive, as in they don't detract from the costume, but don't add anything either. Batman is just such a case.

 

[Troy_Parker]

Which is strange, since that underwear will also be black so it seems you are contradicting yourself.

Guess I entered the srs bsns forum.

*leaves*

 

[Alex_Spider]

Someone asled to manip the tdk suit. I was bored and made some modifications.

Spoiler

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[Alex_Spider]

*asked

 

[BatScot]

But the fact is there is no big outcry about the TDK suit. It's only the same complaints surfacing from the same little group of people who frequent this thread.

Personally I find most of the criticisms to be hyperbole.

... much like this post. There was an outcry.

I was online at the very minute that first pic of the TDK suit—the one of Batman standing on the hood of the patrol car—hit and to be perfectly honest most of us thought they were on to something. But as more pics began to surface that initial enthusiasm waned and there was mixed reaction from very early on. At best the reaction was split 50/50—it was not some little group complaining—and the polls at that time were firmly in favor of the Begins suit as being the better of the two.

Those are the facts.

I remember this so vividly because it was the one time I was with the majority when it came to supporting a rubber batman suits.

 

[BatScot]

I never saw the Begins suit get a backlash.

Wait, was this backlash on SHH?

Yeah, like Teh effin' Puffy never happened. Do you not remembering anything! Or do you just think we've forgotten and now you've the chance to rewrite history. Well as the clown said... homie don't play that.

 

[BatScot]

I've always thought the best way to go would be for the armor plating to be underneath the mesh fabric.

Now your talking!

 

[BatScot]

i have to disagree, i know this for a FACT that the cape did hang over the shoulders in one time with TDK suit, at the final scene where Dent take the gordons into hostage. But the angle and lighting which was preety dark made it hardly noticeable. Can anybody capture the final scene where Bats talk to Two-Face?

Upon further review... you are correct. The TDK does hang over the shoulders in that scene. Its by no means over the chest and I'm hesitant to say the TDK cape has the same potential as the BB cape (which couldn't cover the chest either) but the difference here is a matter of inches rather than not at all.

Still, neither the BB nor the TDK cape—though actually it is the positioning of the clasps not the cape that's the problem, and yes I realize the TDK suit has no "clasps" per se but you get my meaning—can wrap wholely across the chest when hanging loose. That's what we want and neither the BB nor the TDK suit give it.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I never saw the Begins suit get a backlash.

Wait, was this backlash on SHH?

You're kidding, right? The cowl was mocked to no end for the huge neck. Don't you remember TEH PUFFY?

 

[The Joker]

... much like this post. There was an outcry.

I didn't say outcry. I said BIG outcry, which there wasn't. There still isn't. There's practically always a few outcries when a new costume is revealed, particularly when it's not comic accurate.

But when I say outcry I mean an actual noticeable outcry that can be seen across the net. Not from the same group of regulars on one forum.

I was online at the very minute that first pic of the TDK suit—the one of Batman standing on the hood of the patrol car—hit and to be perfectly honest most of us thought they were on to something. But as more pics began to surface that initial enthusiasm waned and there was mixed reaction from very early on. At best the reaction was split 50/50—it was not some little group complaining—and the polls at that time were firmly in favor of the Begins suit as being the better of the two.

Those are the facts.

I was on-line when it first came on-line, too, and I recall positive response distinctly in favor of the TDK suit.

You might be confusing polls for some other topic because no such polls seem to have existed. Feel free to root through the archives and dig one up because I cannot find any threads with polls on them regarding that. The archives go back as far as '06. I tried every possible key word in the search, too.

I even tried narrowing it down by looking for specific threads you posted in

Yeah, like Teh effin' Puffy never happened. Do you not remembering anything! Or do you just think we've forgotten and now you've the chance to rewrite history. Well as the clown said... homie don't play that.

Oh I remember the "teh puffy" comments. It's kind of iconic on this forum. But just like with the "It's too busy/robotic costume" comments here, they were a minority in the grand scheme of things. You're talking like SHH is presenting a general consensus. It's not.

That's not a big backlash. That's my point. Outside of the few in this thread you don't see any kind of big negative reaction or outcry about the suit. Either of Nolan's bat suits. Same thing with the Begins one back in the day.

Stuff like the shaky camera fights in Begins, or the bat voice in TDK, that's a backlash. That's something you even see the critics criticize.

"Teh puffy" and "Robot bat suit" don't even register a weak blip on the radar.

This particular statement is so true it could fit in any thread in regards to a suit.

Indeed

 

[Doc Holliday]

I didn't say outcry. I said BIG outcry, which there wasn't. There still isn't. There's practically always a few outcries when a new costume is revealed, particularly when it's not comic accurate.



I was on-line when it first came on-line, too, and I recall positive response distinctly in favor of the TDK suit.

I think your memory must be fuzzy because no such polls even existed. Feel free to root through the archives and dig one up because I cannot find any threads with polls on them regarding that. The archives go back as far as '06.



Oh I remember the "teh puffy" comments. But just like with the "It's too busy/robotic costume" comments here, they were a very small minority.

That's not a big backlash. That's my point. Outside of the few in this thread you don't see any kind of big negative reaction or outcry about the suit. Same thing with the Begins one back in the day.

Stuff like the shaky camera fights in Begins, or the bat voice in TDK, that's a backlash. That's something you even see the critics criticize.

"Teh puffy" and "Robot bat suit" don't even register a weak blip on the radar.



Indeed

True, the hate on the suit wasn't near the level of those, but I think it was still a more significant group than a "small minority."

Personally, I've never been a fan of the way the TDK suit is so much like motorcycle padding/armor. Sure, he had the Batpod in TDK, but it just reminded me so much of those jackets with the padding in them, even down to the fabric. Plus the cowl not being connected to the shoulders by the padded sections made it look like a motorcycle helmet. And while it was the exact opposite of TEH PUFFY, I think it made Bale's jaw look humongous.

 

[The Joker]

True, the hate on the suit wasn't near the level of those, but I think it was still a more significant group than a "small minority."

Really? So you've seen noticeable stats of complaints regarding the suits beyond this forum? I sincerely never have and I visit several other forums.

I don't even get any results when I Google bulky or puffy Batman Begins costume, or too busy or robotic TDK costume etc.

*Shrugs*

 

[Doc Holliday]

Really? So you've seen noticeable stats of complaints regarding the suits beyond this forum? I sincerely never have and I visit several other forums.

I don't even get any results when I Google bulky or puffy Batman Begins costume, or too busy or robotic TDK costume etc.

*Shrugs*

Well, no. I was referring specifically to SHH. If you're speaking about the general internet, then I don't have a lot of grounds to speak on, and you're probably right. I spend my time here, so I genuinely don't know.

 

[The Joker]

Well, no. I was referring specifically to SHH. If you're speaking about the general internet, then I don't have a lot of grounds to speak on, and you're probably right. I spend my time here, so I genuinely don't know.

That's what I'm referring to. SHH forum. The regulars who post here. An outcry or backlash to me indicates big numbers. Large statistics. Something you'd notice in several places. Not just one forum.

 

[Doc Holliday]

That's what I'm referring to. SHH forum. The regulars who post here. An outcry or backlash to me indicates big numbers. Large statistics. Something you'd notice in several places. Not just one forum.

Well, the amount of people within the BB forum or the TDK forum on SHH seemed to me to be more than a small minority, but that's only within the group of regular posters in this one forum. I'll acknowledge that I don't know if there were significant numbers anywhere else (there probably weren't).

 

[Saint]

Numbers are meaningful when it comes to movies.

We're not talking about a movie, we're talking about an aesthetic element. Not only are the numbers not meaningful (since no one is claiming that a significant amount of people dislike the suit, and that it should thus be changed), but you also do not have them.

Clearly the suit has been accepted by the fan base and the general public.

You don't have that data. You certainly couldn't say "Well, lot's of people saw it, so they accepted the suit," because I saw it four times, bought the Blu-Ray and the DVD, and would rank it as probably my favourite film--but I still hate the suit. No opinion about the suit can be inferred from the success of the film, except that most people didn't let it ruin the movie for them.

When it comes to details like the suit, very little can be assumed about the opinion of the general audience, because this stuff doesn't matter to them like it matters to we nerds. I imagine the most accurate assessment about the opinion of the general audience regarding the suit is that they probably don't care one way or the other.

Finally, even if we did have data on the number of people who like the suit, it still wouldn't matter, because numbers don't validate opinions.

Otherwise a noticeable backlash would have been seen, like with the shaky camera fight scenes from Begins or the bat voice in TDK.

I've been observing a "noticeable backlash" in this thread for three years, but I wouldn't translate that into any sort of claim about the mass opinion of the audience, because my evidence would be only anecdotal, and thus meaningless and irrelevant. Equally, any argument that people have "accepted" the suit, as you say, is also anecdotal, meaningless, and irrelevant.

Oh I remember the "teh puffy" comments. But just like with the "It's too busy/robotic costume" comments here, they were a very small minority.

Stuff like the shaky camera fights in Begins, or the bat voice in TDK, that's a backlash. That's something you even see the critics criticize.

This is pretty terrible reasoning. You just wrote "A small minority of people (critics) complaining is a backlash, but a different small minority of people (fanboys) complaining is not a backlash.

Critics are a terrible example, anyway; of course they're not complaining about the suit, because they don't care. Unless it's poor or ineffectual costuming (and it's not; it's fine costuming, it just doesn't look enough like Batman), what do they care how much it looks like traditional Batman? If it looked more like Batman, they still wouldn't care--much like the general audience.

 

[The Joker]

We're not talking about a movie, we're talking about an aesthetic element.

Which is a major part of the movie considering our hero is wearing it. There was a backlash over the nipples on the bat costume for Schumacher. People still criticize it 14 years later.

If something looks ridiculous or bad on screen, be it a costume or any kind of visual in a movie, you hear about it in abundance. The same if something looks amazing you hear the praise for it.

You don't have that data.

Yes, I do. Just like with the TDK bat voice, if audiences have a problem with something you hear about it everywhere.

The sheer absence of such complaints outside of this forum is clearly indicative that the bat suit is not a problem for the general consensus.

If something is hated by many, you hear about it.

You certainly couldn't say "Well, lot's of people saw it, so they accepted the suit," because I saw it four times, bought the Blu-Ray and the DVD, and would rank it as probably my favourite film--but I still hate the suit. No opinion about the suit can be inferred from the success of the film, except that most people didn't let it ruin the movie for them.

Nobody is saying that. One bad costume is hardly going to be enough to spoil a whole movie.

When it comes to details like the suit, very little can be assumed about the opinion of the general audience, because this stuff doesn't matter to them like it matters to we nerds.

That is true in the level of scrutiny we give it and the comparisons and little details we talk about.

People will look at the bat suit and either like it or not. They're not going to be analyzing the bat chest symbol, or the utility belt, or the certain way the cape is draped on his shoulders etc. These things are insignificant to the general audiences.

But if something just looks bad or silly to audiences you will hear about it. I can't believe you would even suggest an aesthetic would be hushed up in critical and general reactions to a movie.

Finally, even if we did have data on the number of people who like the suit, it still wouldn't matter, because numbers don't validate opinions.

They validate that beyond some upset nerds, the bat suit has been accepted by the masses.

I've been observing a "noticeable backlash" in this thread for three years, but I wouldn't translate that into any sort of claim about the mass opinion of the audience, because my evidence would be only anecdotal, and thus meaningless and irrelevant. Equally, any argument that people have "accepted" the suit, as you say, is also anecdotal, meaningless, and irrelevant.

The difference is basing data on one thread in forum in comparison to the world wide web where any kind of severe criticism towards these suits is seemingly non-existent.

If you were oblivious to this thread, can you honestly say you would be aware of any kind of severe negativity towards the Nolan bat suits by others?

This is pretty terrible reasoning. You just wrote "A small minority of people (critics) complaining is a backlash, but a different small minority of people (fanboys) complaining is not a backlash.

Critics are a terrible example, anyway; of course they're not complaining about the suit, because they don't care. Unless it's poor or ineffectual costuming (and it's not; it's fine costuming, it just doesn't look enough like Batman), what do they care how much it looks like traditional Batman? If it looked more like Batman, they still wouldn't care--much like the general audience.

So wait, critics will complain about the bat voice or a shaky camera, but not a bad looking costume?

No, I'm sorry but that's completely untrue. If something looks as bad as some of the people in here paint the Nolan bat suits, you can bet they would be criticized by all quarters. Especially in a comic book movie where visual appearance is a huge part of the appeal of these characters.

 

[Saint]

Yes, I do. Just like with the TDK bat voice, if audiences have a problem with something you hear about it everywhere.

The sheer absence of such complaints outside of this forum is clearly...

...Completely anecdotal and irrelevant. If you don't see the problem here, I have no particular desire to continue the conversation. I'm not going to debate with someone who's trying to fight me with anecdotes.

The fact that you, further down in your post, actually attempt to claim that your anecdotal evidence is better than my anecdotal evidence (after I had made a point of explaining that anecdotal evidence is irrelevant in both sides of the argument) only underscores the futility of further discussion.

I will address the following though:

So wait, critics will complain about the bat voice or a shaky camera, but not a bad looking costume?

Yeah, uh, that's not what I wrote. I was pretty clear.

What I wrote was that a critic would not complain unless the problem was poor or ineffectual costuming (what you describe as a "bad looking costume,"). What I said is that I would not expect to see a critic complain about the suit not looking enough like the traditional Batman image (which is the problem with the TDK suit, not that the costuming is poor or ineffectual), as the critic likely doesn't care, and that doesn't inform the quality of the film for him or the audience he expects to be reading his review.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, uh, that's not what I wrote. I was pretty clear.

What I wrote was that a critic would not complain unless the problem was poor or ineffectual costuming (what you describe as a "bad looking costume,"). What I said is that I would not expect to see a critic complain about the suit not looking enough like the traditional Batman image (which is the problem with the TDK suit, not that the costuming is poor or ineffectual), as the critic likely doesn't care, and that doesn't inform the quality of the film for him or the audience he expects to be reading his review.

Let me be equally clear then. What I'm saying is that the level of criticism the suit gets is the equivalent to it looking like a complete eye sore on screen. I'm sure you yourself have witnessed the comments of "It just looks totally ridiculous" or "It's flat out ugly" or "It looks a total mess" etc.

It's not that it's not traditional looking Batman that's the main complaint (although that is one of them), it's just that some say it looks like a complete eye sore.

 

[Saint]

Let me be equally clear then. What I'm saying is that the level of criticism the suit gets is the equivalent to it looking like a complete eye sore on screen. I'm sure you yourself have witnessed the comments of "It just looks totally ridiculous" or "It's flat out ugly" or "It looks a total mess" etc.

Yes, but you have to view this as a relative statement, not an absolute one--because aesthetics are not absolute. The suit doesn't exist in a void; one doesn't look at it and judge it independently of all other considerations. It's a Batman costume, and that comes with a wealth of considerations that inform such a judgement.

As a completely self-contained and independent piece of work, yes, it's not really accurate to call it ugly. It'd be fine on some other character. But as Batman costume? Relative to or compared to what Batman is supposed to look like, what is considered a solid look for Batman (not speaking for everyone, of course, but for those complaining)? Then yes, it could be considered an ugly mess. By similar token, I wouldn't call the B89 suit ugly on Batman, but it would sure make for an ugly Superman, wouldn't it?

It's not that it's not traditional looking Batman that's the main complaint (although that is one of them), it's just that some say it looks like a complete eye sore.

Well, no: that it's not traditional looking is the main complaint; the fact that it's described as an eyesore is a consequence of it not looking traditional.

I'm sure you'll say that's an exaggerated or poor way to communicate that opinion, and that's fair--but consider that "It's ugly" is fair shorthand for a more reasonable and lengthy opinion that many of the people in this thread have elaborated on dozens of times.

 

[JAK®]

Majority opinion is the final consensus. That's why Avatar is objectively a better movie than TDK, the Transformers movies are among the greatest of all time and summer blockbusters are the genre with the most quality.

The numbers support it you see.

 

[CapedCrusader14]

Sometimes I hate general consensus. I loathe Avatar with a passion and the first Transformers was the only good one.

Eh, opinions are a pain. Stick with your own and deal with it I guess. Even if you hate another person's opinion.

 

[JAK®]

Sometimes I hate general consensus. I loathe Avatar with a passion and the first Transformers was the only good one.

Well obviously you're part of some insane fringe minority. My numbers show that since the consensus is that they were good, your opinions can be discounted!

Eh, opinions are a pain. Stick with your own and deal with it I guess. Even if you hate another person's opinion.

ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

 

[CapedCrusader14]

Well obviously you're part of some insane fringe minority. My numbers show that since the consensus is that they were good, your opinions can be discounted!


ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

I laughed at this post

 

[Doc Holliday]

Majority opinion is the final consensus. That's why Avatar is objectively a better movie than TDK, the Transformers movies are among the greatest of all time and summer blockbusters are the genre with the most quality.

The numbers support it you see.