The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread

[Mr. Earle]

I was talking about the choreography of Black Widow's fight, not the silly fight with Vanko. Nobody said that taking down thugs should look flashy or difficult for Batman, but his "super effective takedowns" look stupid and half assed most of the time. He mostly uses the same elbow move and usually the thugs fall after him barely hitting them (the fight in Maroni's club being the exception). Furthermore, the fake sound effects certainly dont help Nolan's fights seem any realistic. The KAPOW sounds in the Adam West series were better than the sound they put in BB and TDK everytime Bale elbows someone.

Also, what Joker chase are you referring to? When did they chase him? Do you mean the Slaughter Truck scene? That wasnt a fight so i dont think it fits. I could make the same point about the naked scenes in Wild Things. Denise Richards' boobs are certainly more exciting and satisfying than anything that appeared in BB (not to insult BB which i love-- TDK not so much).

So lets compare fight scenes and not scenes in general.

 

[Saint]

I was talking about the choreography of Black Widow's fight, not the silly fight with Vanko. Nobody said that taking down thugs should look flashy or difficult for Batman, but his "super effective takedowns" look stupid and half assed most of the time. He mostly uses the same elbow move and usually the thugs fall after him barely hitting them (the fight in Maroni's club being the exception). Furthermore, the fake sound effects certainly dont help Nolan's fights seem any realistic. The KAPOW sounds in the Adam West series were better than the sound they put in BB and TDK everytime Bale elbows someone.

I'm not sure you really followed the completeness of what I was saying. If you would please read my post, you will see that I acknowledged some weakness in the fist fights, and I don't care to hear Mr. Earle's tenth annual lecture on elbows and how he does not like them.

Also, what Joker chase are you referring to? When did they chase him? Do you mean the Slaughter Truck scene? That wasnt a fight so i dont think it fits.

You don't think that an action scene is comparable to an action scene?

Anyways, I don't know why you're rambling to me about the Black Widow; I was talking about the action of Iron Man 2 in general, not any particular scene.

To illuminate the point I was making in my original post, The Dark Knight (whether we're talking about the chase scene or something else) employs superior plotting and design in it's action sequences than Iron Man 2 (Black Widow or otherwise), which is more important than the sub-optimal execution of fist-fights within certain of those sequences.

As another example, Iron Man beating up War Machine may look cooler than the T-1000 beating up the T-800 in T2, but the action of T2 is infinitely more satisfying, more exciting, and ultimately, superior to that of Iron Man 2. Flair does not an action scene make.

 

[Boom]

Quite honestly, I would have laughed my ass off if Batman fought the same way as Black Widow in Iron Man 2. Something about her fighting technique was very feminine to me. And well, I have a hard time picturing Batman wrapping his legs around bad guys and throwing them around.

The Bourne films really do have one of the best templates for how Batman fight scenes should be shot.

 

[batman11]

Man, I don't care what anybody says: I loved the whole sequence where Bruce plans to kill chill, abandons the gun, and then finally goes to confront Falcone. The whole series of events was like a rolling epiphany for Bruce. Awesome.

I agree with you. Two of my favorite moments from either film are Bruce's attempt to take out Chill, and the subsequent tossing of the gun. Although told over a very brief period in the film, the moments are wonderfully contrasting and meaningful. As you said, we get this nice rolling epiphany. The two bits that always stick out to me are Bruce's eyes, and the editing of the gun toss. With the Chill scene, the intensity Bale exudes is electric. He displays this great contradictory look of having a set goal and purpose, yet at the same time, a lapse in sanity. As he clutches the gun and moves forward, we see a driven Bruce Wayne, but there is something not right about his look, which is perfect. And with the tossing of the gun, I absolutely love the symphony of the quick intercut with the rising music. The horns swell as we truck in on the gun, and we get the brief flash of a young Bruce looking at the gun and Chill in horror. These three quick shots precede the tossing of the gun, and this merging of the past and present say all that needs to be said. I freaking love that moment.

As a point of interest, judging by the way you wrote, "I don't care what anybody says," is there some sort of negative connotation surrounding this scene? I wasn't around here too much for the Begins stuff (merely lurked a bit), so I don't really know.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Tossing out the gun was a great moment, one of my favorites. No dialogue, just images and music cues that work magic for that short scene

 

[Saint]

I agree with you. Two of my favorite moments from either film are Bruce's attempt to take out Chill, and the subsequent tossing of the gun. Although told over a very brief period in the film, the moments are wonderfully contrasting and meaningful. As you said, we get this nice rolling epiphany. The two bits that always stick out to me are Bruce's eyes, and the editing of the gun toss. With the Chill scene, the intensity Bale exudes is electric. He displays this great contradictory look of having a set goal and purpose, yet at the same time, a lapse in sanity. As he clutches the gun and moves forward, we see a driven Bruce Wayne, but there is something not right about his look, which is perfect. And with the tossing of the gun, I absolutely love the symphony of the quick intercut with the rising music. The horns swell as we truck in on the gun, and we get the brief flash of a young Bruce looking at the gun and Chill in horror. These three quick shots precede the tossing of the gun, and this merging of the past and present say all that needs to be said. I freaking love that moment.

As a point of interest, judging by the way you wrote, "I don't care what anybody says," is there some sort of negative connotation surrounding this scene? I wasn't around here too much for the Begins stuff (merely lurked a bit), so I don't really know.

I suppose I'm just recalling a couple of discussions I had with individuals who felt that Bruce was just being led around by the nose by other people (Rachel, Falcone), which is not what I think was happening.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I'm not sure you really followed the completeness of what I was saying. If you would please read my post, you will see that I acknowledged some weakness in the fist fights, and I don't care to hear Mr. Earle's tenth annual lecture on elbows and how he does not like them.


You don't think that an action scene is comparable to an action scene?

Anyways, I don't know why you're rambling to me about the Black Widow; I was talking about the action of Iron Man 2 in general, not any particular scene.

To illuminate the point I was making in my original post, The Dark Knight (whether we're talking about the chase scene or something else) employs superior plotting and design in it's action sequences than Iron Man 2 (Black Widow or otherwise), which is more important than the sub-optimal execution of fist-fights within certain of those sequences.

As another example, Iron Man beating up War Machine may look cooler than the T-1000 beating up the T-800 in T2, but the action of T2 is infinitely more satisfying, more exciting, and ultimately, superior to that of Iron Man 2. Flair does not an action scene make.

I'm just saying that i was the one to reference IM2 and only for the Black Widow fight, nothing else. So it is about fights not IM2's action in general.

Quite honestly, I would have laughed my ass off if Batman fought the same way as Black Widow in Iron Man 2. Something about her fighting technique was very feminine to me. And well, I have a hard time picturing Batman wrapping his legs around bad guys and throwing them around.

The Bourne films really do have one of the best templates for how Batman fight scenes should be shot.

Well yeah it was obviously a feminine fight intended to make nerds drool over her.

 

[skiddyboy]

 

[GothamAlleys]

I suppose I'm just recalling a couple of discussions I had with individuals who felt that Bruce was just being led around by the nose by other people (Rachel, Falcone), which is not what I think was happening.

He wasn't led perhaps, but Rachel (and Alfred) had a grand input in his moral consciousness and decisions

Christopher Nolan: Katie also has a maturity beyond her years that comes across in the film and is essential to the idea that Rachel is something of a moral conscience for Bruce. (indielondon.co.uk)

Bruce apparently is and was confirmed to be by Bale at that point of the movie to be a spoiled, inconsiderate brat, but it was Rachel's rough talk that turned him around, it was that push that he needed. I certainly dont think its something negative in any possible way

More quotes and Bale Bat profile here for those interested - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2011/01/batman-in-movies-part-iii-christian.html

 

[DaveMoral]

I was talking about the choreography of Black Widow's fight, not the silly fight with Vanko. Nobody said that taking down thugs should look flashy or difficult for Batman, but his "super effective takedowns" look stupid and half assed most of the time. He mostly uses the same elbow move and usually the thugs fall after him barely hitting them (the fight in Maroni's club being the exception). Furthermore, the fake sound effects certainly dont help Nolan's fights seem any realistic. The KAPOW sounds in the Adam West series were better than the sound they put in BB and TDK everytime Bale elbows someone.

Also, what Joker chase are you referring to? When did they chase him? Do you mean the Slaughter Truck scene? That wasnt a fight so i dont think it fits. I could make the same point about the naked scenes in Wild Things. Denise Richards' boobs are certainly more exciting and satisfying than anything that appeared in BB (not to insult BB which i love-- TDK not so much).

So lets compare fight scenes and not scenes in general.

Do you do martial arts? Honestly?

Frankly, a takedown on a relatively untrained opponent is going to be easy. Probably the easiest martial anything Batman has ever done. Sure it looks half-assed, because he doesn't have to do it hard. Frankly, any skilled exponent of a serious martial art is going to put down Generic Thug #5 so easily that you'd be hardpressed to believe he put much effort into it at all.

Batman fighting thugs is no UFC fight. It's quite simply a superior physical specimen laying waste to street brawlers.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Do you do martial arts? Honestly?

Frankly, a takedown on a relatively untrained opponent is going to be easy. Probably the easiest martial anything Batman has ever done. Sure it looks half-assed, because he doesn't have to do it hard. Frankly, any skilled exponent of a serious martial art is going to put down Generic Thug #5 so easily that you'd be hardpressed to believe he put much effort into it at all.

Batman fighting thugs is no UFC fight. It's quite simply a superior physical specimen laying waste to street brawlers.

1) I used to do karate when i was a kid. I reached one of the higher belts but then quit when i got into high school because of all the time i had to spend on studying.
2) I said Nolan's fights were half assed because they lack variety of moves, Keysi kinda sucks visually, and because some scenes and especially the one in Hong Kong looked fake. I mean the thugs were aiming at the ceiling and waiting to get hit.
3) Look, Nolan is going for a more grounded approach, i get that, but there is still a lot a way to go till we get to ridiculous Chinese movie wire fights. His moves arent interesting, sophisticated or good enough for Batman. I dont care if they are the easiest opponents for him because most of those random dudes Bourne took out werent anything special either, but he did it in an amazing way.

You guys can justify it as realistic take downs all you want, but at the end of the day its a Batman movie. Is asking for better and more interesting fight scenes too much to ask from a Batman movie? Let me repost this once again.

 

[not_a_victim]

1) I used to do karate when i was a kid. I reached one of the higher belts but then quit when i got into high school because of all the time i had to spend on studying.
2) I said Nolan's fights were half assed because they lack variety of moves, Keysi kinda sucks visually, and because some scenes and especially the one in Hong Kong looked fake. I mean the thugs were aiming at the ceiling and waiting to get hit.
3) Look, Nolan is going for a more grounded approach, i get that, but there is still a lot a way to go till we get to ridiculous Chinese movie wire fights. His moves arent interesting, sophisticated or good enough for Batman. I dont care if they are the easiest opponents for him because most of those random dudes Bourne took out werent anything special either, but he did it in an amazing way.

You guys can justify it as realistic take downs all you want, but at the end of the day its a Batman movie. Is asking for better and more interesting fight scenes too much to ask from a Batman movie? Let me repost this once again.

No, most certainly, Nolan is not interested in making a "Batman Movie", and that is what you fail to understand.
Nolan was in no way making a "Batman" movie. He took the Batman mythos, and filtered it through his own style. He presented the story of a man driven by grief and anger, and simply incorporated it into the Batman story. When the man doesn't even use the word "Batman" in the title to his sequel, that tells you how interested he is in making a "Batman" movie.
Nolan has pared the story and characters down to their very core. "Deconstructed" them if you will, then presented them in modern, non-comic format. He places us WITHIN the story, and that includes the fights. He doesn't present some sanitary, clearly blocked and framed fight scene. He presents it to us the way a fight really is...confusing, fast, and dirty.

 

[Gianakin_]

No, TDK was very much a Batman movie. The Nolans brought some of their ideas to the table, sure, but it was from start to finish Batman.

 

[Doctor Jones]

That's subjective. To me it feels like Batman. But to Earle it may not. It comes down to preference. Batman is a character who can be interpreted in many ways. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, there are many elements that make Batman great, not what makes Batman Batman.

 

[Gianakin_]

I disagree that this particular issue is subjective. The TV show, BB, B89, TDK, BTAS and even B&R are all Batman. What is subjective is what makes a great Batman.

Someone can not like TDK, but to say it's not Batman, when most of the movie's elements have appeared in the comics in some way or form... no, I don't agree it's a matter of opinion.

 

[Saint]

I'm just saying that i was the one to reference IM2 and only for the Black Widow fight, nothing else. So it is about fights not IM2's action in general.

If you don't see how my comments relate to the fight scenes and their position in the overall scheme of things, then I guess there's no helping you at this point.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I disagree that this particular issue is subjective. The TV show, BB, B89, TDK, BTAS and even B&R are all Batman. What is subjective is what makes a great Batman.

Someone can not like TDK, but to say it's not Batman, when most of the movie's elements have appeared in the comics in some way or form... no, I don't agree it's a matter of opinion.

I think you are right. Because whenever I'm trying to think of preference and subjectivity, it's making my head hurt.

But still, what people choose to like in Batman and it's different for everybody. What you see as Batman, Earle may not see as much. I too wish Batman would fight in a better way, but that doesn't seem to bother you. That's Batman to you I guess? But there's no definitive version of Batman, it just has to be good. And it does come down to preference in interpretation.

 

[Mr. Earle]

No, most certainly, Nolan is not interested in making a "Batman Movie", and that is what you fail to understand.
Nolan was in no way making a "Batman" movie. He took the Batman mythos, and filtered it through his own style. He presented the story of a man driven by grief and anger, and simply incorporated it into the Batman story. When the man doesn't even use the word "Batman" in the title to his sequel, that tells you how interested he is in making a "Batman" movie.
Nolan has pared the story and characters down to their very core. "Deconstructed" them if you will, then presented them in modern, non-comic format. He places us WITHIN the story, and that includes the fights. He doesn't present some sanitary, clearly blocked and framed fight scene. He presents it to us the way a fight really is...confusing, fast, and dirty.

Yes, TDK, the sequel to Batman Begins wasnt a batman movie. Nobody calls him "the Dark Knight" anyway. The movie was about knights, princesses and dragons.

That's subjective. To me it feels like Batman. But to Earle it may not. It comes down to preference. Batman is a character who can be interpreted in many ways. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, there are many elements that make Batman great, not what makes Batman Batman.

I didnt say it wasnt a Batman movie.

If you don't see how my comments relate to the fight scenes and their position in the overall scheme of things, then I guess there's no helping you at this point.

Your condescending tone and arrogance doesnt change the fact that you strayed from the issue. I was talking about fight scenes and you came and said that the Joker chase which was an action scene was more dramatic and exciting. So whatever, i'm not in a mood for your **** today.

 

[DaveMoral]

1) I used to do karate when i was a kid. I reached one of the higher belts but then quit when i got into high school because of all the time i had to spend on studying.
2) I said Nolan's fights were half assed because they lack variety of moves, Keysi kinda sucks visually, and because some scenes and especially the one in Hong Kong looked fake. I mean the thugs were aiming at the ceiling and waiting to get hit.
3) Look, Nolan is going for a more grounded approach, i get that, but there is still a lot a way to go till we get to ridiculous Chinese movie wire fights. His moves arent interesting, sophisticated or good enough for Batman. I dont care if they are the easiest opponents for him because most of those random dudes Bourne took out werent anything special either, but he did it in an amazing way.

You guys can justify it as realistic take downs all you want, but at the end of the day its a Batman movie. Is asking for better and more interesting fight scenes too much to ask from a Batman movie? Let me repost this once again.

I don't think Keysi sucks visually at all. You have to know what you're looking at. Getting a "higher" belt in karate when you were a little kid means exactly squat. Those belt rankings are fairly easy, particularly if it's a strip mall dojo situation. I'm talking about being seriously interested in and studying the martial arts.

The TDK fights are endlessly interesting to me because I'm seeing moves thrown in there I'd never expect to see used in a "realistic" situation. And it works. For close range fighting the elbows are some of the best weapons in the human arsenal. The takedowns are great. And frankly, the Arkham City trailer and the fighting in Arkham Asylum are heavily derivative of the Keysi used in BB and TDK. Heavily. The only difference is some of the spin kicks you see in there, and let me tell you for the most part those are just for show. They aren't even really in most traditional martial art forms/katas. I mean sure, it looks cool for you to make Batman do a mule kick into on of the Blackgate thugs in Arkham Asylum, but you'd most likely never use that in fight for real.

Visually impressive fights are, for the most part, missing from Hollywood cinema. These days they either use a form of wire-fu or the do choppy close in fight scenes where you can't see anything. Even Bourne, for as visceral as it can be, isn't 100% impressive IMO.

 

[Saint]

Your condescending tone and arrogance doesnt change the fact that you strayed from the issue. I was talking about fight scenes and you came and said that the Joker chase which was an action scene was more dramatic and exciting. So whatever, i'm not in a mood for your **** today.

Actually, what I did was respond to a point from Regwec, and then I explained how I felt about the differences between Iron Man 2 and The Dark Knight, with regards to the overall action and the relevance of the fight scenes in that greater scheme. More simply: while my arguments goes beyond the the Black Widow scene and how it compares to The Dark Knight, it is relevant to that concern.

If, after reading my posts, you do not understand that, then I'm sorry, but that's your fault--not mine. I have been exceedingly clear. Frankly, this seems to have a lot for to do with your attitude than it does with mine.

But whatever, "Waaaah, waaah, I don't like Saint!", right?

 

[Travesty]

The only difference is some of the spin kicks you see in there, and let me tell you for the most part those are just for show. They aren't even really in most traditional martial art forms/katas. I mean sure, it looks cool for you to make Batman do a mule kick into on of the Blackgate thugs in Arkham Asylum, but you'd most likely never use that in fight for real.

And you wouldn't dress up in a suit that weighs about 50-60 pounds, and try to fist fight people either, because you would easily loose. Earle's point is that this is a Batman movie, not real life, so why not make the fights look better. It's a movie, so why are we worried about real life here?

Visually impressive fights are, for the most part, missing from Hollywood cinema. These days they either use a form of wire-fu or the do choppy close in fight scenes where you can't see anything. Even Bourne, for as visceral as it can be, isn't 100% impressive IMO.

So are you saying that the obviously choreographed fights from TDK are the best you've ever seen? I get that you may like them, but I think they can easily improve from what we saw in the movie. People falling over before they even get hit isn't necessarily "good" to me, but I guess that's just my opinion.

 

[Saint]

The only difference is some of the spin kicks you see in there, and let me tell you for the most part those are just for show. They aren't even really in most traditional martial art forms/katas.

Haha, yeah. I'm certainly no expert, but I trained up to my black belt when I was younger, and there was certainly no place for a spinning kick in any practical application I ever learned--and I can't remember a kata that ever used one, either. Sure, we might have learned that sort of kick, but we never used it for anything.

Really, anyone watching the practical application of a martial art like kempo, for example, would be bored to tears--unless you find a kick to the knee and an elbow to the face deeply exciting. Self-defense isn't like a sparring match.

Of course, it's important to recognize that practicality is only part of a fight scene in a movie.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I don't think Keysi sucks visually at all. You have to know what you're looking at. Getting a "higher" belt in karate when you were a little kid means exactly squat. Those belt rankings are fairly easy, particularly if it's a strip mall dojo situation. I'm talking about being seriously interested in and studying the martial arts.

No i didnt study martial arts that way. I'm an average joe paying all those euros to watch a Batman movie. Everything is pretty good so far besides the fight scenes which seem boring. And its not about real martial arts, its about fake martial arts in a movie about a dude dressed as a bat.

The TDK fights are endlessly interesting to me because I'm seeing moves thrown in there I'd never expect to see

"OMG, he used his elbows again! How did i not see that coming!"

For close range fighting the elbows are some of the best weapons in the human arsenal.

Even when the enemies arent close enough he walks up to them so that he can elbow them in the face. Watch the fundraiser fight.

The takedowns are great. And frankly, the Arkham City trailer and the fighting in Arkham Asylum are heavily derivative of the Keysi used in BB and TDK. Heavily.

Keysi is all about keeping your elbows close to your head and fighting like that. The Arkham game fights were a lot more open than that. He used a lot of punches, kicks, grabs, and all that. Movie Batman feels heavy and slow and only uses about 10 moves. I guess Bruce was hitting on Asian women before he met Ras.

The only difference is some of the spin kicks you see in there, and let me tell you for the most part those are just for show. They aren't even really in most traditional martial art forms/katas. I mean sure, it looks cool for you to make Batman do a mule kick into on of the Blackgate thugs in Arkham Asylum, but you'd most likely never use that in fight for real.

Kicks dont work? Really? The legs are longer and far more powerful than arms.

BESIDES: THIS ISNT REAL LIFE. ITS A ****ING MOVIE.

Visually impressive fights are, for the most part, missing from Hollywood cinema. These days they either use a form of wire-fu or the do choppy close in fight scenes where you can't see anything. Even Bourne, for as visceral as it can be, isn't 100% impressive IMO.

Agreed.

Actually, what I did was respond to a point from Regwec, and then I explained how I felt about the differences between Iron Man 2 and The Dark Knight, with regards to the overall action and the relevance of the fight scenes in that greater scheme. More simply: while my arguments goes beyond the the Black Widow scene and how it compares to The Dark Knight, it is relevant to that concern.

If, after reading my posts, you do not understand that, then I'm sorry, but that's your fault--not mine. I have been exceedingly clear. Frankly, this seems to have a lot for to do with your attitude than it does with mine.

But whatever, "Waaaah, waaah, I don't like Saint!", right?

Well you could have said all that without all that attitude so really it is about yours and not mine. If you havent noticed i've been pretty friendly and chatty with you.

 

[Gianakin_]

But still, what people choose to like in Batman and it's different for everybody. What you see as Batman, Earle may not see as much. I too wish Batman would fight in a better way, but that doesn't seem to bother you. That's Batman to you I guess? But there's no definitive version of Batman, it just has to be good. And it does come down to preference in interpretation.

I think we're pretty much agreeing, albeit we're talking semantics. For example, I don't like Schumacher's interpretation of Batman in BF. But still, it is undeniably Batman.

 

[Saint]

"OMG, he used his elbows again! How did i not see that coming!"
Even when the enemies arent close enough he walks up to them so that he can elbow them in the face. Watch the fundraiser fight.

Here's a better idea: watch the Arkham trailer and count the number of times he hits somebody with an elbow or forearm strike. These are exactly the sort of moves Batman in employs in Batman Begins in The Dark Knight. As Moral points out, it's pretty obvious that they borrowed heavily from the fighting style used in the movies.

Keysi is all about keeping your elbows close to your head and fighting like that. The Arkham game fights were a lot more open than that. He used a lot of punches, kicks, grabs, and all that. Movie Batman feels heavy and slow and only uses about 10 moves. I guess Bruce was hitting on Asian women before he met Ras.

You're being deliberately obtuse; Batman uses punches and grappling ("grabs") all the time in both movies (kicks less so, but he still does them). In fact, a huge portion of what Batman's doing in those fights is grappling. He pretty much uses a grapple to disarm anyone with a gun (sometimes throwing them into other people or objects, also).

Frankly, I think you're so locked into your position that the fights are all elbows that you're not actually watching what's happening.

Kicks dont work? Really? The legs are longer and far more powerful than arms.

Is there a reason your completely misrepresenting his argument? Moral didn't say "LOL, KICKS DON'T WORK ZOMG." He said that the spinning kicks in Arkham Asylum do not have practical fighting applications; you'd never see them used in a fight. Not all kicks are equal; the ones Moral is talking about are for show only.