The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread

[Saint]

Here's a fun experiment, Earle: count the elbows strikes.


It's three, max--and I think two of those are actually forearm strikes.

 

[Travesty]

Is there a reason your completely misrepresenting his argument? Moral didn't say "LOL, KICKS DON'T WORK ZOMG." He said that the spinning kicks in Arkham Asylum do not have practical fighting applications; you'd never see them used in a fight. Not all kicks are equal; the ones Moral is talking about are for show only.

I can find TONS of spinning kick KO videos from karate and UFC tourney's on youtube. Not only KO's, but kicks(spinning and regular) that are used in general form.

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[KRIM]

Spinning kicks are effective but should be used sparingly. When successfully utilized it's practically a KO. If missed, you leave yourself incredibly vulnerable for those precious few seconds that it would take to turn the fight completely against you.

That's why it's not recommended for martial arts students as a practical application. It's the combative equivalent of a Hail Mary pass.

And at the risk of sounding repetitive -- Bourne. Bourne. Bourne. They're the ones with the crown and it's disappointing Batman isn't even seen as a competition to the bar they've set. I can understand both sides of the argument, but until the series has approached the level of quality in those films I can't defend Batman here. The discussion is poignant in this thread however, as I feel that the reason Damon looks so much better is he doesn't have to worry about that huge blanket getting in the way, or having to fight against 80 pound rubber.

 

[Gianakin_]

See, Bourne (the last 2 movies) is something I can agree with. I'd love to see them move closer to them in terms of fighting style.

 

[RustyCage]

Here's a fun experiment, Earle: count the elbows strikes.


It's three, max--and I think two of those are actually forearm strikes.

Well done! I noticed his hands aren't up in his stance sort of thing very often there either, looks a lot more natural.

Also, his French (?) voice... so awesome.

 

[RustyCage]

Spinning kicks are effective but should be used sparingly. When successfully utilized it's practically a KO. If missed, you leave yourself incredibly vulnerable for those precious few seconds that it would take to turn the fight completely against you.

Exactly.

 

[Gianakin_]

Also, his French (?) voice... so awesome.

It's like bad pornt:

 

[Saint]

I can find TONS of spinning kick KO videos from karate and UFC tourney's on youtube. Not only KO's, but kicks(spinning and regular) that are used in general form.

Yes, I'm sure you can--but that's a tournament environment, which is different. I can't speak for Moral, but I was speaking with regards to my experience in practical self-defense training. Simply put: I was taught those kind of maneuvers, and I might have even employed them in a competitive environment--but not in self defense and not in a real fight. That said, I can't preclude the possibility that some form of martial arts might use more elaborate maneuvers for self-defense training; I am only speaking on my experience.

Also, it's not necessary to tell me that "regular kicks" are useful in various applications; I wouldn't refute that at all, and I'm sure Moral wouldn't either.

 

[Gianakin_]

Here's a fun experiment, Earle: count the elbows strikes.

Thanks for that. Made me want to watch TDK again. There goes my dissertation-again.

 

[Saint]

Bourne. Bourne. Bourne.

Yep.

 

[Travesty]

Yes, I'm sure you can--but that's a tournament environment, which is different. I can't speak for Moral, but I was speaking with regards to my experience in practical self-defense training. Simply put: I was taught those kind of maneuvers, and I might have even employed them in a competitive environment--but not in self defense and not in a real fight.

Well, let me say I'm sorry I can't find any videos of someone using a spin kick while being jumped in a real fight. The defense of this argument was that spinning kicks were just for show, but I've seen fights on TV where it wasn't for show, but to win the fight. (shown above)

Just because you, or someone else, wasn't trained to use spin kicks, doesn't mean it's not used in training(there are a lot of different fighting techniques/training). Fighters don't use non-practical means to win fights, they use what training they feel is necessary, and I'll take that from professionals I see in videos, than what I gather from some bat-fans on a forum. And these tourneys are real fights, this isn't WCW/WWF(E), these people are in it to win. So I don't know why you're trying to negate a spin kick being used in a tourney?

And while I find tournament fighting to be real(regardless of how you try to spin it), I don't see a Batman movie as such. The point, is that spin kicks are used, and have practical purposes to take people out. Sure, they can be "just for show", but they clearly have real word applications to their attack. And again, this is a movie, it's not real. Someone fighting in a 50-60 pound suit will probably go down fast while being jumped by 1-2 guys.

I don't hate the elbows, it would be nice to see some variety besides punch, elbow, punch, punch, elbow. It's a movie, show some style!

 

[Mr. Earle]

Here's a fun experiment, Earle: count the elbows strikes.


It's three, max--and I think two of those are actually forearm strikes.

THere werent many, perhaps even none, but this was one of the better fights. Watch the fundraiser fight where Batman keeps his elbows high and walks up to people to hit them in the head.
There's also the opening fight vs the Chechen's thugs where they come one by one and he takes them down this some ridiculous moves. The last one of them actually has a gun and walks right up to him so that Batman can snatch it and pimp slap him unconsious. Lol he can barely move in the Begins suit.

I dont know if Keysi works like that, or if its practical or whatever, i just enjoy a more open fighting style.

 

[ChickenScratch]

I'm gonna chime in as a martial arts instuctor here (3rd Dan Seido Karate), spinning kicks are just fine if you know how to use them. As to the fights in the Batman movies, they looked fine enough, sure you could improve, but I think it was a choice made by Nolan in many ways. Besides, all stage combat looks fake to me anyways after 25 years of Karate.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Btw realism fans, explain to me how Batman bends the barrel of that gun when that gadget only works as a clenching hand. His whole arm would need to be mechanical for him to do that.

Also, if Batman and Nolan are so obsessed with practicality and speed, why do they do all those fast take downs and yet they dont use knock out gas, sedative darts, tazers or a gas mask? Is Batman making things harder for himself on purpose?

OH NOES, MY BATMAN MOVIE IS NOT REALISTIC!!!

 

[batman11]

I agree. Knockout gas would have been a good choice to take out the Joker and his thugs during the penthouse party fight.

(For the record, I always thought it would have been interesting for Bats to use the current that he sends through the gloves to make the cape rigid as a way of taking some thugs out. Could be a cool moment if used once or something.)

 

[TheBatman072]

Btw realism fans, explain to me how Batman bends the barrel of that gun when that gadget only works as a clenching hand. His whole arm would need to be mechanical for him to do that.

Also, if Batman and Nolan are so obsessed with practicality and speed, why do they do all those fast take downs and yet they dont use knock out gas, sedative darts, tazers or a gas mask? Is Batman making things harder for himself on purpose?

OH NOES, MY BATMAN MOVIE IS NOT REALISTIC!!!

Troll.

 

[Saint]

Well, let me say I'm sorry I can't find any videos of someone using a spin kick while being jumped in a real fight. The defense of this argument was that spinning kicks were just for show, but I've seen fights on TV where it wasn't for show, but to win the fight. (shown above)

Just because you, or someone else, wasn't trained to use spin kicks, doesn't mean it's not used in training(there are a lot of different fighting techniques/training).

I'm sorry, I'm trying really hard not to be a jerk here, but this is incredibly tiresome: I just finished explaining in the post you quoted that I'm speaking of my experience only, and that other martial arts may be different. So, let's review:

Saint: "This is my experience only; other arts may employ more elaborate self-defense techniques."
Travesty: "Other martial arts might be different."

Yeah, that's why I wrote that.

Fighters don't use non-practical means to win fights, they use what training they feel is necessary, and I'll take that from professionals I see in videos, then what I gather from some bat-fans on a forum. And these tourneys are real fights, this isn't WCW/WWF(E), these people are in it to win. So I don't know why you're trying to negate a spin kick being used in a tourney?

Because it's a competitive sport environment. You argue that a competitive fight is a "real fight," but it's not, not in the ways that matter most. It's important to recognize that the goal of a real fight, the demands of a real fight, the dangers of a real fight, and the tools you have at your disposal in a real fight are extremely different than a competitive fight.

Nobody punches you in the groin in competition, nobody chokes you in competition, and nobody picks up a lead pipe and hits you over the head in competition. Nobody is trying to maim you or kill you or knock you unconscious and drag you off to be raped. These are competitive fights with rules and regulations and systems in place to keep people from getting seriously injured. They are designed for sport and for entertainment, and that alone separates them, absolutely, from a "real fight."

The technique you use for sport and entertainment is not necessarily the technique you use to defend yourself against the guy who has nothing stopping him from kicking you in the balls or gouging your eyes--the guy who isn't an athlete in an entertainment industry. Hell, probably every self-defense technique I ever learned included a maneuver that would be illegal in these tournaments, including the UFC.

Now, again: I cannot speak on what every martial art employs in it's self-defense training. I certainly defer to ChickenScratch, who is obviously more experienced than I am. I am only speaking from my experience, which is that most self defense techniques would be illegal and dangerous in a competitive fight, and some techniques used in an competitive fight would be impractical and dangerous in a real fight.

I don't see a Batman movie as such. The point, is that spin kicks are used, and have practical purposes to take people out. Sure, they can be "just for show", but they clearly have real word applications to their attack. And again, this is a movie, it's not real. Someone fighting in a 50-60 pound suit will probably go down fast while being jumped by 1-2 guys.

Yes, I'm aware that a movie is, in fact, a movie. As a movie, it has goals that may or may not be served by more or less elaborate fights. Practicality informs these scenes in these movies; if that's not to your liking, or if you feel that there more emphasis on practicality then there needs to be, that is fine. I'm not arguing against your preferences; I am only talking about something I think may have informed their decision making process.

You've interpreted my argument as being that spinning kicks shouldn't be in these movies, but I'm not saying that. Batman uses such a kick on a ninja in Batman Begins, and it was just fine. I'm just trying to add some perspective to the discussion.

 

[Saint]

THere werent many, perhaps even none, but this was one of the better fights. Watch the fundraiser fight where Batman keeps his elbows high and walks up to people to hit them in the head.
There's also the opening fight vs the Chechen's thugs where they come one by one and he takes them down this some ridiculous moves. The last one of them actually has a gun and walks right up to him so that Batman can snatch it and pimp slap him unconsious. Lol he can barely move in the Begins suit.

I dont know if Keysi works like that, or if its practical or whatever, i just enjoy a more open fighting style.

I know you didn't say anything about elbows in this post, really, but I want to put the nail in the coffin here with regards to elbows:

I count two possible elbow strikes, and I think it might just be one.


Two. He hits the third enemy he drops with two elbow strikes. The first guy (fake Batman) could be an elbow, but it looks like a forearm to me.

So, here it is: the elbow argument is now over. If you don't like the way he often holds his arms near his head, if you don't like the way the fights are shot, or if you have other concerns like that, that is entirely understandable. But the "It's all elbows" complaint is done. I just killed it. Dead.

 

[RustyCage]

I agree. Knockout gas would have been a good choice to take out the Joker and his thugs during the penthouse party fight.

Wouldn't that have affected the other people there too?

 

[Saint]

Wouldn't that have affected the other people there too?

Frankly, I'm surprised Batman doesn't use flashbangs. Flashbangs seem like the ultimate tool for his surprise attacks on armed enemies. Maybe they felt it would make him too much like a SWAT guy.

I suppose Batman would be concerned about badguys firing blindly, actually. A shot fired blindly is more dangerous to potential innocents than a shot fired directly at Batman.

 

[batman11]

Wouldn't that have affected the other people there too?

Hence the fact that I was being sarcastic.

t:

...

And please stop posting videos Saint. There are too many elbows...it's making me a bit sick.

 

[-Arya-]

Having had some extensive martial arts experience myself, I can say that Batman's fighting style is just fine. Sure he could have used more kicks and knees in TDK but it doesn't really matter that much.

 

[Travesty]

I'm sorry, I'm trying really hard not to be a jerk here, but this is incredibly tiresome: I just finished explaining in the post you quoted that I'm speaking of my experience only, and that other martial arts may be different. So, let's review:

Saint: "This is my experience only; other arts may employ more elaborate self-defense techniques."
Travesty: "Other martial arts might be different."

Yeah, that's why I wrote that.

No you didn't, this all started, because you said:

Is there a reason your completely misrepresenting his argument? Moral didn't say "LOL, KICKS DON'T WORK ZOMG." He said that the spinning kicks in Arkham Asylum do not have practical fighting applications; you'd never see them used in a fight. Not all kicks are equal; the ones Moral is talking about are for show only.

Then, I presented my videos, where you then tried to shoot it down, by saying it's not valid, because it's a tournament setting. Why this makes a difference, I still don't know, even after your long explanation, it still doesn't make sense, seeing as it's still a fight to win. And since you CLEARLY said that it wasn't practical, yet it can be at times to knock people out, I'm having a hard time understating your defense, other than you wanting to be right. You were making it out to be all about "show", even though there's technique around it that you are obviously denying, but at the same time, not denying.

Because it's a competitive sport environment. You argue that a competitive fight is a "real fight," but it's not, not in the ways that matter most. It's important to recognize that the goal of a real fight, the demands of a real fight, the dangers of a real fight, and the tools you have at your disposal in a real fight are extremely different than a competitive fight.

And I quote, "spinning kicks in Arkham Asylum do not have practical fighting applications; you'd never see them used in a fight", yet, video evidence contradicts you, regardless of your tired "competitive" explanations.

Nobody punches you in the groin in competition, nobody chokes you in competition, and nobody picks up a lead pipe and hits you over the head in competition. Nobody is trying to maim you or kill you or knock you unconscious and drag you off to be raped. These are competitive fights with rules and regulations and systems in place to keep people from getting seriously injured. They are designed for sport and for entertainment, and that alone separates them, absolutely, from a "real fight."

That's not what you originally said, nor should it matter. It's a fight, and is completely applicable, along with video evidence. Sorry.....

The technique you use for sport and entertainment is not necessarily the technique you use to defend yourself against the guy who has nothing stopping him from kicking you in the balls or gouging your eyes--the guy who isn't an athlete in an entertainment industry. Hell, probably every self-defense technique I ever learned included a maneuver that would be illegal in these tournaments, including the UFC.

"Not necessarily"? The fact is that you can use it to knock somebody out, especially someone who is as trained as Batman, I would imagine that this shouldn't be an issue. What are you missing here? Batman is a trained fighter/ninja who can roundhouse people. What's wrong here?

You've interpreted my argument as being that spinning kicks shouldn't be in these movies, but I'm not saying that. Batman uses such a kick on a ninja in Batman Begins, and it was just fine. I'm just trying to add some perspective to the discussion.

Let me get this straight: You understand that Batman has used such a technique on someone in BB(which you never brought up until now), and yet, you're arguing with me that it's not something that could be used by him? I'm sorry, that's not "perspective", that's just you trying really hard to win an argument that shouldn't have gone this far to begin with.

 

[RustyCage]

Frankly, I'm surprised Batman doesn't use flashbangs. Flashbangs seem like the ultimate tool for his surprise attacks on armed enemies. Maybe they felt it would make him too much like a SWAT guy.

I suppose Batman would be concerned about badguys firing blindly, actually. A shot fired blindly is more dangerous to potential innocents than a shot fired directly at Batman.

I'm surprised he doesn't use a lot of different things like that. KO gas, simple smokescreen pellets, flash pellets. We saw him using flash powder in Begins, so it seemed logical for him to make use of that sort of thing, but he hasn't - at least not yet.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Krav Maga, used be the special forces and sam fisher of splinter cell, enough said, but batman looked more like a street brawler in the past few films.

He should have very deliberate fast moves, much like a professional boxer, in the words of mike tyson, "speed kills", its a way to take down bigger opponents(bane).

Spinning kicks, take longer than normal kicks, they also waist more energy, they are only used to decieve an opponent.

Why do a spinning kick, it just feels uneccessary, sure they look cool, and they are semi a functional, but in reality, it takes longer to do, so you jump in the air, and a spray of bullets hit you.

I wouldnt mind ducking spin trips.

But its impractical in the situation, batmans not trying to be flashy, just trying to get the job done.

when bane and batman are in a fight, if batman is hit by just a few hits, or simply constricted, its over. speed and accuracy are where its at, not flashy stuff.