The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread

[BatScot]

While you make a good point, it is nevertheless true that more expenditure does not in itself tend to produce better results. The TDK suit must have cost a great deal more to produce than the Batman '89 suit, but it looks worse. It's necessary to have a sound design in mind before you turn on the money pump. I would actually think that the grey fabric batsuit would be considerably cheaper to produce than the any of the rubber wetsuits, because it would only really be the mask and cranial structure that needed to be molded and sculpted.

You're absolutely correct; there are no guarantees that by throwing money at something that you will make it better either in design or realization. But additional resources are without doubt an advantageous starting position and if nothing else makes a favorable outcome more probable. What I objected to was the notion that it was impossible to make anything look better regardless of the financial or professional resources at your disposal. TimStuff proposed that notion as an absolute, which it most assuredly is not.

Great to see you back, by the way.

Thanks... I think the wagon must have hit a bumpy spot along the way and I fell off

 

[iamcitizen]

Yes, but if you stray too far from the source material, it is no longer an adaptation of the source material. If I wanted to adapt a film about Jesus, but for the whole film he was dressed up as Robocop and God was dressed up as Optimus Prime people would be like "WTF!? That's not in the Bible" I could just say, "It's my own interpretation"?

Yeah, but the TDK suit isn't changed that much. It's a matter of opinion, but he's got the bat-ears, the exposed mouth, the cape, the chest symbol, the utility belt and the scalloped gauntlets. He looks like Batman.

 

[JAK®]

Yeah, but the TDK suit isn't changed that much. It's a matter of opinion, but he's got the bat-ears, the exposed mouth, the cape, the chest symbol, the utility belt and the scalloped gauntlets. He looks like Batman.

Yeah, but the Adam West costume looks like Batman. The Schumacher suits look like Batman. The Dead End suit looks like Batman.

It's a matter of quality. Frankly, the TDK suit could be better. The changes proposed in those manips make Batman look closer to the comic, while not compromising the point of the suit.

 

[mcallima]

The one good thing about the TDK suit is that we got closer to Black/Grey. I have zero desire to go back to all black.

 

[Stelze]

The one good thing about the TDK suit is that we got closer to Black/Grey. I have zero desire to go back to all black.

And why is that?

 

[iamcitizen]

Yeah, but the Adam West costume looks like Batman. The Schumacher suits look like Batman. The Dead End suit looks like Batman.

You're right, all those suits look like Batman. So all the attempts to make a live-action Batman suit are equal on the basis of "looks like Batman." Meanwhile, the TDK suit manages to look like a believable piece of technology unlike any of the previous suits, allow the actor a decent range of motion for the person wearing it unlike the Burton, Schumacher or Begins suits, and not look stupid like the Adam West, Schumacher or Dead End suits. The TDK suit could be better of course, and I'd welcome any improvements, but it is far and away the best Batman costume we've seen on screen yet.

It's a matter of quality. Frankly, the TDK suit could be better. The changes proposed in those manips make Batman look closer to the comic, while not compromising the point of the suit.

That's my problem with those manips. None of the changes seem to serve any function other than to make the suit look more like the comic. It isn't that changing the ears would be bad, it's just: why? All of the changes in the TDK suit had some sort of reasoning behind them.

 

[mcallima]

And why is that?

Because I prefer black & grey. Was that not implicit in my post?

 

[Infinity9999x]

That's my problem with those manips. None of the changes seem to serve any function other than to make the suit look more like the comic. It isn't that changing the ears would be bad, it's just: why? All of the changes in the TDK suit had some sort of reasoning behind them.

Honestly, the problem I have is with everyone expecting a reason for changes to the suit. It's as if we can't change it without explaining it to the 100th degree. The suit itself is still a costume. It still has many elements that are completely impractical. Because as much as we describe it, it's still a man in a batsuit.

Why the changes? Well, Bruce did establish at the end of BB that he wants to be a symbol, the changes could just be enhancing that symbol. But honestly, why the hell do we have to have a reason? It's a costume, part of it's function is to look stylistic.

 

[iamcitizen]

Honestly, the problem I have is with everyone expecting a reason for changes to the suit. It's as if we can't change it without explaining it to the 100th degree. The suit itself is still a costume. It still has many elements that are completely impractical. Because as much as we describe it, it's still a man in a batsuit.

Why the changes? Well, Bruce did establish at the end of BB that he wants to be a symbol, the changes could just be enhancing that symbol. But honestly, why the hell do we have to have a reason? It's a costume, part of it's function is to look stylistic.

It already looks stylistic. Everything has a to have a reason, whether it is explained in the film or not. Why change the ears? What is wrong with the ears on the TDK suit that would be fixed by making them more like the 89 suit?

 

[JAK®]

Because it looks better?

 

[iamcitizen]

Because it looks better?

That's a matter of opinion, and you are certainly entitled to yours, but the people in charge of designing the batsuits for Nolan's movies obviously preferred a different design to the one you prefer. I sincerely doubt they will just up and decide "Hey, this design sucks! Let's go back to the Burton suit!"

That's the other thing that gets me about those manips: They are obviously made by someone who didn't like the TDK suit. Whereas the real Rises suit (if there is a new one) will be designed and approved by the same people who designed and approved the TDK suit.

 

[BatScot]

In the opinion of many? Define "many."

It is a conclusion I arrived at based on the observation of comments and opinions during my nearly daily participation in various forums related to the aesthetic of the TDK suit over the period from the very hour the first pic of the TDK was revealed through mid-2010 during which it was self-evident to anyone who was following along at the time that the general opinion regarding the ‘look’ of the TDK suit tended to lean towards the unfavorable. Now keep in mind “lean towards” is a rough estimate of any actual numerical value but whether that stat was 60-40 or even 51-49 is inconsequential regardless of which side you’re on; either number constitutes a many.

Definitely not in the opinion of most.

“Most” could mean 51-49. That’s not exactly a mandate. Hell, that definition of ‘most’ got W in the White House and in the opinion of many that did no go well.

All the complaints I've heard about the TDK suit come from comic fans...

So what; it’s not like that makes the opinion any less valid. In any case, I’ve spoken with a lot of people who have no interest in comics and even less in comic book inspired films who nonetheless enjoyed BB and TDK and who said to me “Why’d they change the suit, I liked the first one better”. So there you go.

but plenty of comic fans (myself included) love the TDK suit.

I didn’t say or imply there were not those who liked or even favored the TDK suit; I’m just not one of them. I’m one of the many. And you’re just going to have to trust me on this one because I am rarely in the many when it comes to the idea of what a film batsuit should look like. And that very fact is why I so clearly remember that there was an unfavorable split—it was the one time I was with the majority.

So I think that by any reasonable definition, the TDK suit was an entirely successful piece of design work.

In the opinion of some

The TDK suit managed to 1) look like Batman, 2) allow the actor/stuntperson wearing it a decent range of motion, 3) look like a believable piece of technology, and 4) not look stupid to mainstream audiences. The Begins suit failed on 2, the suits from the Burton movies failed on 2 and 3, and the Batman Dead End suit failed big time on 3 and especially 4.

Fail? The only complaints I’ve heard about the BB suit come from comic book fans, primarily those upset with yet another rubber suit. It is true—in retrospect—that even the Nolanites (and in fact Hemming’s herself) have come to the conclusion that the BB head wasn’t quite as mobile as it was originally purported to be, but the BB suit was far from being restrictive and Bale could move his head and what limitations did exist were only noticeable on a few occasions. In short, both the general audience AND the majority of comic book fans were of the opinion the BB suit did in fact allow the actor/stuntperson wearing it a "decent range of motion". They might not give it an A+ but it’s not an F.

As for the Burton suits... I’ll concede point 2, but only because of the construction material and processes available at the time and not the design. But you’re wrong on point 3—regardless of the fact that Burton did little to explain the technology of the suit within the narrative of the film the B89 suit nonetheless ESTABLISHED the ‘believable technology look’ for Batman and if there’s anyone who thinks the B89 and BR suits do not resemble “body armor” well I suspect they’re are so few of that opinion that the objection can be characterized as non-existent.

As for Dead End... I doubt anyone who could be characterized as being the “mainstream audience” has actually seen it and going any farther than that at present is going to take us way off the mark so I’m just going to leave my comment at that.

 

[iamcitizen]

It is a conclusion I arrived at based on the observation of comments and opinions during my nearly daily participation in various forums related to the aesthetic of the TDK suit over the period from the very hour the first pic of the TDK was revealed through mid-2010 during which it was self-evident to anyone who was following along at the time that the general opinion regarding the ‘look’ of the TDK suit tended to lean towards the unfavorable. Now keep in mind “lean towards” is a rough estimate of any actual numerical value but whether that stat was 60-40 or even 51-49 is inconsequential regardless of which side you’re on; either number constitutes a many.

Fair enough, your perception is that the majority of fans dislike the suit. My perception is that a very vocal minority hate the suit, and a relatively silent majority either like it or have no strong opinion.

So what; it’s not like that makes the opinion any less valid.

Sorry, but I really think it does. Nothing against comic fans - I am one, after all - but they are notorious for valuing fidelity to the source material way too much. Heck, in this very thread we have had people saying that Batman should be dressed in gray tights and black briefs. On film.

In any case, I’ve spoken with a lot of people who have no interest in comics and even less in comic book inspired films who nonetheless enjoyed BB and TDK and who said to me “Why’d they change the suit, I liked the first one better”. So there you go.

Hey, I liked the look of the Begins suit more than the look of the TDK suit too. But I think the difference in quality in the fight scenes between Begins and TDK speaks for itself. Even in-universe, the TDK suit was supposed to be a pragmatic solution to the more "artful" Begins suit's problems.

Fail? The only complaints I’ve heard about the BB suit come from comic book fans, primarily those upset with yet another rubber suit. It is true—in retrospect—that even the Nolanites (and in fact Hemming’s herself) have come to the conclusion that the BB head wasn’t quite as mobile as it was originally purported to be, but the BB suit was far from being restrictive and Bale could move his head and what limitations did exist were only noticeable on a few occasions. In short, both the general audience AND the majority of comic book fans were of the opinion the BB suit did in fact allow the actor/stuntperson wearing it a "decent range of motion". They might not give it an A+ but it’s not an F

Again, I liked the Begins suit a lot, but it was obviously extremely restrictive. Seriously, watch the ending with Bale awkwardly turning his entire body to tell Gordon "You'll never have to." Or watch the fight scenes, and compare them to similar scenes in TDK. Or heck, compare the in-costume fight scenes in Begins to the out-of-costume fight scenes in Begins. Why was Nolan able to shoot fluid, coherent fight scenes like the fight with Ducard on the ice or the fight with Ken Watanabe in the burning temple, but later was only able to shoot choppy, over-edited messes like Batman's fight with the ninjas in the Narrows or the finale on the train?

As for the Burton suits... I’ll concede point 2, but only because of the construction material and processes available at the time and not the design.

Yes, that's right. Part of the reason the Burton suits are lacking is because of the technical limitations of the time. I'm not criticizing the folks who made the suits- they did the best they could with what they had. But they don't really hold up to a modern eye.

But you’re wrong on point 3—regardless of the fact that Burton did little to explain the technology of the suit within the narrative of the film the B89 suit nonetheless ESTABLISHED the ‘believable technology look’ for Batman and if there’s anyone who thinks the B89 and BR suits do not resemble “body armor” well I suspect they’re are so few of that opinion that the objection can be characterized as non-existent.

Meh. I would argue this, but within the stylized world of Burton's films, I could buy the B89 suit as body armour.

As for Dead End... I doubt anyone who could be characterized as being the “mainstream audience” has actually seen it and going any farther than that at present is going to take us way off the mark so I’m just going to leave my comment at that.

It's a grown man trying to look tough and scary while wearing skin tight gray spandex and black briefs. I'm comfortable assuming that no one who isn't a die-hard comic fan would be able to watch that without laughing.

 

[regwec]

Oh, "spandex" again.

Boring.

 

[iamcitizen]

Oh, "spandex" again.

Boring.

Really not sure what you're getting at.

 

[BatScot]

Really not sure what you're getting at.

I do

 

[JAK®]

What he is getting at, iamcitizen, is that you are clearly arguing with us based on what you think we want, which means that arguing with you is a waste of time, because that means you were never prepared to consider our point of view.

Like your recent suggestion that I am asking for a return to the Burton suit. When have I ever expressed a preference for the Burton suit?

 

[Texas Zombie]

While you make a good point, it is nevertheless true that more expenditure does not in itself tend to produce better results. The TDK suit must have cost a great deal more to produce than the Batman '89 suit, but it looks worse. It's necessary to have a sound design in mind before you turn on the money pump. I would actually think that the grey fabric batsuit would be considerably cheaper to produce than the any of the rubber wetsuits, because it would only really be the mask and cranial structure that needed to be molded and sculpted.

Great to see you back, by the way. Stick around.

Have you ever seen the mask on the batman89 suit?

I think you need to find a middleground between the comic and reality, the suit we currently have is a little too ground in reality.

I think the suit needs to be cleaner and sleeker looking. I wouldn't mind a cleaned up tdk suit. He should look meaner for sure though.

 

[Lencho01]

Have you ever seen the mask on the batman89 suit?

I think you need to find a middleground between the comic and reality, the suit we currently have is a little too ground in reality.

I think the suit needs to be cleaner and sleeker looking. I wouldn't mind a cleaned up tdk suit. He should look meaner for sure though.

The suit's grounding in "reality" is a result of Nolan's approach. If we get a new suit (and I think we will), it won't be all that different from the ones in BB and TDK.

 

[regwec]

Have you ever seen the mask on the batman89 suit?

No, I never saw that movie, not being much of a Batman fan.

 

[DavidTyler]

How about this? NOT MINE! Made by R-teest on deviantART.

That's it!!! That's the suit I want to see in the next movie....


Nolan .. are you watching??

 

[iamcitizen]

What he is getting at, iamcitizen, is that you are clearly arguing with us based on what you think we want, which means that arguing with you is a waste of time, because that means you were never prepared to consider our point of view.

Well, I am forced to assume what you want, since nobody I am arguing with has actually stated what they actually want. I have absolutely no idea what BatScot thinks the suit in TDKR should look like, for example. I'm forced to make assumptions.

Like your recent suggestion that I am asking for a return to the Burton suit. When have I ever expressed a preference for the Burton suit?

Well, you said that the manip Mister Meddle posted "looks better" than the TDK suit. That manip is basically a pic of the TDK suit that has been altered to look more like the Burton suit.

 

[Texas Zombie]

No, I never saw that movie, not being much of a Batman fan.

well obviously it was sarcastic, my point being the mask looked terrible, but when returns came out they put more money in and the mask looked drastically better(not the chest piece tho).

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

i love the TDK suit. i hope they still use that one in TDKR. my only complaint about that suit though was that the bay symbol on the chest was pretty small.

 

[RoughNTumble]

We'll either see TDK suit at the beginning of TDKR, or he'll start the movie with a new suit/cave/car.