The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread

[the dmg]

I assumed that the belt attaches to his sturdy suit, and thats why he doesn't need the harness.

Maybe it attaches like his capsules and pouches. t:

 

[Mr. Earle]

Or maybe its a comic book movie where looks trump realism and common sense. Maybe... just maybe...

 

[the dmg]

Or maybe its a comic book movie where looks tramp realism and common sense. Maybe... just maybe...

But...but...it's all in the name of teh realism.

 

[BatScot]

Vengeance was his first and most primal reaction to the loss of his parents.

A point I already took into account: "there is no reason Wayne could not have thought both—the vengeful anger of the traumatized boy becoming the justice seeking of the matured man"

In Mask of the Phantasm Bruce wants to quit and he begs his parents to allow him to break his vow to them so that he can marry Andrea. Of course his parents are dead so its he who decides whether they'd let him or not so it still comes down to him, but the difference is that here its an owth, a feeling of responsibility.

I’m not sure of the relevance of this here. I’m not arguing that Batman’s sole motivation be “the promise” or that “the promise” must be in a Batman film but rather that such a promise is not in-and-of-itself incompatible with Nolan’s ideas of the character’s psychology.

But let’s consider your statement as it is written... if we take your argument, i.e., that it in MOTP it “comes down to him” then one could argue that in comparison to MOTP the ending of Begins—where Wayne also wants to quit—is weaker because Rachel facilitates the ultimate decision whereas in MOTP “its he who decides. In fact, one could argue that Nolan’s Wayne does not so much choose to be Batman as much as he resigns himself to be Batman.

In Begins Bruce knows that he cant bring them back or avenge them, and he realizes that its not his fault...

Nolan’s Bruce may come to that realization in later life but it was not how he internalized the effects of the initial trauma:

YOUNG BRUCE
It was my fault, Alfred.

But again, this idea of the traumatized Wayne having thought this—even to the extent of contemplating some future action—is not incompatible with Nolan’s point-of-view.

This notion of “the promise” being anathema because it exists in the comic is anti-comic bias at its worse. I can understand why some might find “the vow” a bit archaic for modern sentiments but the answer to that is simply to present the meaning of the vow in a more modern phrasing. And frankly, the effect of “the promise” could be achieved without the words being verbalized—in Begins Nolan sets the stage with the funeral being at Wayne Manor so the idea that the young Wayne might find himself alone by the grave site—either at the time of the burial or sometime later—is not unreasonable. And even if those 5-10 seconds served no other purpose other than as an easter egg for those in the know, that too would not have been incompatible with Nolan’s story. And if push comes to shove, I’ll argue to the end that something like that would have been less silly than Coat Man or that d*mn Narrows Kid.

so he doesnt need to do anything about it. He just channels his rage and trauma for a greater purpose like Ras taught him (but without the killing).

But it is the very death of his parents that ignites that rage and it is the trigger event of all things that mold what he will become and had it not happened Wayne would (as you put it) “probably have become a spoilt brat” with little interest in a greater good and none whatsoever in dressing up in a bat costume and fighting crime.

And it really doesn’t matter to me whether or not the older Wayne ‘gets over it' because even if he does and no longer dwells over his parents deaths and no longer feels he must be Batman because of some promise made, that he thought these things at one time is not incompatible with his later understanding. But ultimately you simply have to accept the fact that Wayne is Batman because of the trauma he experienced as witness to his parent’s murder. Now maybe after seventy odd years of comic book angst its time to move on, but with only seven hours of film dedicated to the story it’s perfectly reasonable to dwell on it.

You could say that Nolan's Batman is more normal

I don’t think Wayne—any version of him, comic or film—is normal. And I don’t mean that in the sense of a psychological disorder but rather in the sense of those who are born with something greater within them that “normal” people just do not have, be it intelligence or physical abilities or drive, and who—under the right conditions—become something only they and others like them could have become. Wayne is such an anomaly. And he was so at birth. Yes normal people do great, heroic, and remarkable things, but no “normal” person would think of let alone aspire to becoming Batman. This idea that a “normal” man, even one with the resources to do so, would choose to fight the greater good by becoming Batman is inconceivable from any realistic point-of-view. Now we could argue back and forth indefinitely about the “possibility” of whether or not it “could” happen. And in hope of avoiding that tangent let me just say IT COULD HAPPEN. But only in that a one-in-billion chance where the right person is affected by the right events at the right time. And of these, the ‘right person’ is the primary factor. And for the evolution of Batman, Wayne—and only Wayne—is that person. And the only explanation I have ever been satisfied with or thought remotely plausible is that Wayne was biologically predisposed to superior achievement regardless of what manner he chose to express his innate talent; that he possessed a rare combination of intelligence and will power that would allow him to accomplish whatever objective he set out to accomplish. He would have been one of those Titans—of industry, of science, of art, etc, etc—who changed the world. And then the choice was taken from him and fate determined his course.

Bruce Wayne is John Galt.

he isnt so obsessed about his parents but the trauma changed him and made him a better man.

Even so, that does not negate the plausibility of “the promise” (whether made or inferred); the desire to see dead the murderer of a loved one is a normal reaction. But to say Nolan’s Wayne is not obsessed with this thought is to ignore a large portion of the character’s early life as it is presented in Begins.

Had he not experienced it he'd probably have become a spoilt brat.

This is a) the proverbial ‘jump to a conclusion, and b) likely to occur only he were “normal”.

In any case, the only reason I mentioned “the promise” in the first place was in response to someone who suggested Batman should refer to it in TDKR, which didn’t make sense to me since he never made “the promise” in Begins or TDK.

Funny how things take a life of their own.

 

[BatScot]

Or maybe its a comic book movie where looks tramp realism and common sense. Maybe... just maybe...

That reminds me of something Nolan said during the making of Begins, you must know it because you've all but paraphrased it above:

CHRISTOPHER NOLAN
'My approach to Batman is that this is a comic book film and I'm not going to treat it like some Merchant and Ivory piece. I wanted to use spandex for the suit but Goyer had this rubber outfit in his basement he wanted to wear use instead and that's all I want to say about that. I don't want to be tied down by bloody physics or laws of blah, blah, blah, or what have you. I'm only concerned with how things look, not realism and common sense. Whats that? No Donald Trump is not in the film. Do you mean the tramp on the docks? Oh, you do mean trump.'

Yes, yes, that does sound like Nolan now doesn't it

 

[Mr. Earle]

That reminds me of something Nolan said during the making of Begins, you must know it because you've all but paraphrased it above:

CHRISTOPHER NOLAN
'My approach to Batman is that this is a comic book film and I'm not going to treat it like some Merchant and Ivory piece. I wanted to use spandex for the suit but Goyer had this rubber outfit in his basement he wanted to wear use instead and that's all I want to say about that. I don't want to be tied down by bloody physics or laws of blah, blah, blah, or what have you. I'm only concerned with how things look, not realism and common sense. Whats that? No Donald Trump is not in the film. Do you mean the tramp on the docks? Oh, you do mean trump.'

Yes, yes, that does sound like Nolan now doesn't it

I dont get what you mean by all that. If you could try writing a proper post instead of poking fun at my bad spelling i might though. Hey, English isnt my native language so sue me.

I'll respond to your big post later. I hope its not full of sarcasm like this one.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I’m not sure of the relevance of this here. I’m not arguing that Batman’s sole motivation be “the promise” or that “the promise” must be in a Batman film but rather that such a promise is not in-and-of-itself incompatible with Nolan’s ideas of the character’s psychology.

But let’s consider your statement as it is written... if we take your argument, i.e., that it in MOTP it “comes down to him” then one could argue that in comparison to MOTP the ending of Begins—where Wayne also wants to quit—is weaker because Rachel facilitates the ultimate decision whereas in MOTP “its he who decides. In fact, one could argue that Nolan’s Wayne does not so much choose to be Batman as much as he resigns himself to be Batman.

In MOTP he decides to quit but Andrea's disappearence forces his hand and its the same deal in TDK with Rachel's death. The difference is that in Nolan's world he is motivated by justice whereas in MOTP he is motivated by an oath he has to keep as well as his ideas perhaps.

In the comics they've moved away from the oath quite a bit. Case in point "Batman: Death and the Maidens" where Ras gives Bruce a potion that allows him to meet the spirits of his parents who are very disappointed in how he's turned out. They wanted him to lead a normal life, be happy and help others through more conventional and perhaps more effective means, like becoming a doctor, a senator, the president. When Bruce wakes up he is confused and doesnt know whether what he experienced was a dream or the true spirits of his parents. Alfred tells him that he would have become Batman regardless of their wishes because that's who he is, that's how he chooses to pursue his ideals.

Another example is Detective #500 (or was it #600?) where Batman saves the Waynes of another dimension. Even with his parents alive alternate Bruce is shaken up and changed from the experience of the mugging. The book ends with young Bruce walking around the garden with his shadow looking like the shadow of Batman.

Nolan’s Bruce may come to that realization in later life but it was not how he internalized the effects of the initial trauma:

YOUNG BRUCE
It was my fault, Alfred.

Yes because Nolan's Bruce doesnt become Batman right after the murders but for him its a 20 year long spiritual journey that results in him becoming Batman. So it doesnt matter how it started but how it ended. Ras made him realize that it wasnt his fault and that **** happens. All that's left is for him to use his trauma for something good.

This notion of “the promise” being anathema because it exists in the comic is anti-comic bias at its worse.

If you know me at all you'd know that i read a lot of comics, love them, and that i often chastize Nolan for not sticking closely to them. So its not about being anti-comics or pro-Nolan, its the fact that Nolan wasnt tied by any continuity and could in fact take the best bits from the mythos and even improve them wherever he could.

One of those instances was removing the vow, the influence of Zorro, and taking Bruce into a 20 year long journey through life to turn him into Batman in a way that feels natural and organic.

I can understand why some might find “the vow” a bit archaic for modern sentiments but the answer to that is simply to present the meaning of the vow in a more modern phrasing. And frankly, the effect of “the promise” could be achieved without the words being verbalized—in Begins Nolan sets the stage with the funeral being at Wayne Manor so the idea that the young Wayne might find himself alone by the grave site—either at the time of the burial or sometime later—is not unreasonable. And even if those 5-10 seconds served no other purpose other than as an easter egg for those in the know, that too would not have been incompatible with Nolan’s story.

I never said that it couldnt have been done or that it would have been cheesy or wrong. All i am saying is that its better if Bruce is Batman because he is an idealist, an altruist, a superior human being rather than an obsessed vigilante crying out for mommy and daddy. That is not to say that he is over the trauma, just that his motive isnt to please their spirits by punching people in the face.

And if push comes to shove, I’ll argue to the end that something like that would have been less silly than Coat Man or that d*mn Narrows Kid.

Yes but how is this relevant? Coat Man or the Narrows kid arent even tied to this subplot in any way. Oh and btw, i liked coat man. I love that actor.

But it is the very death of his parents that ignites that rage and it is the trigger event of all things that mold what he will become and had it not happened Wayne would (as you put it) “probably have become a spoilt brat” with little interest in a greater good and none whatsoever in dressing up in a bat costume and fighting crime.

And it really doesn’t matter to me whether or not the older Wayne ‘gets over it' because even if he does and no longer dwells over his parents deaths and no longer feels he must be Batman because of some promise made, that he thought these things at one time is not incompatible with his later understanding. But ultimately you simply have to accept the fact that Wayne is Batman because of the trauma he experienced as witness to his parent’s murder. Now maybe after seventy odd years of comic book angst its time to move on, but with only seven hours of film dedicated to the story it’s perfectly reasonable to dwell on it.

Well duh. The difference is in what he does with it.

I don’t think Wayne—any version of him, comic or film—is normal. And I don’t mean that in the sense of a psychological disorder but rather in the sense of those who are born with something greater within them that “normal” people just do not have, be it intelligence or physical abilities or drive, and who—under the right conditions—become something only they and others like them could have become. Wayne is such an anomaly. And he was so at birth. Yes normal people do great, heroic, and remarkable things, but no “normal” person would think of let alone aspire to becoming Batman. This idea that a “normal” man, even one with the resources to do so, would choose to fight the greater good by becoming Batman is inconceivable from any realistic point-of-view. Now we could argue back and forth indefinitely about the “possibility” of whether or not it “could” happen. And in hope of avoiding that tangent let me just say IT COULD HAPPEN. But only in that a one-in-billion chance where the right person is affected by the right events at the right time. And of these, the ‘right person’ is the primary factor. And for the evolution of Batman, Wayne—and only Wayne—is that person. And the only explanation I have ever been satisfied with or thought remotely plausible is that Wayne was biologically predisposed to superior achievement regardless of what manner he chose to express his innate talent; that he possessed a rare combination of intelligence and will power that would allow him to accomplish whatever objective he set out to accomplish. He would have been one of those Titans—of industry, of science, of art, etc, etc—who changed the world. And then the choice was taken from him and fate determined his course.

Bruce Wayne is John Galt.

I never said he was normal. I said that he's perhaps more normal than the comics batman, and that even depends on the era we're talking about. In 90ies he was in Rorschach territory and now Morrison has made him happier.

Even so, that does not negate the plausibility of “the promise” (whether made or inferred); the desire to see dead the murderer of a loved one is a normal reaction. But to say Nolan’s Wayne is not obsessed with this thought is to ignore a large portion of the character’s early life as it is presented in Begins.

Those are the key words here.

 

[JBElliott]

Its so good that i have to repost it.

It needs to be all black with more lines and more armor to be realistic.

 

[JBElliott]

Recently saw this on DA:



Fairly good adaptation of the gray bodysuit, while maintaining its famed armored form.

It needs to be all black and could use some more lines and armor to be really realistic.

 

[Savage]

Recently saw this on DA:



Fairly good adaptation of the gray bodysuit, while maintaining its famed armored form.

I like where this is headed. A segmented suit can still have human musculature and not look so high tech like in TDK. I'd love to see a segmented suit that actually resembles human anatomy (no nipples or anything, obviously). Grey hard parts and black soft parts. This works.

 

[Texas Zombie]

I think a water proof, flame ******ant material would be a great way to explain overcloth.

 

[Saint]

Perfect, very realistic! It's just the kind of armor Batman would need in the real world. I hope he can fly in that too and that the cape is retractible.

Who cares how Batman looks in the comics or cartoons and has for several decades. That look can never work on film and never has. Plus the costume needs to be realistic; so it needs armor since Batman would need armor in the real world.

Not bad, but it needs more armor to be realistic and it should be all black for better camouflage. Also the cape should be retractable so he won't trip on it while fighting, but it could come out and form wings so he could glide. The hole in the mask needs to be closed up too.

Some heavy armoring would look good (lot's of seams and mesh lines and that kind of thing) too and make it more realistic.

The suit on the left is a lot better than the suit on the right since it's a lot more realistic. Just make the texturing a lot of little bats and it would be perfect.

As long as the colors are very dark and there are a lot of S-shields and some armor to make things realistic and break up the costume with a lot of lines and detail it will look great. Maybe all black with a dark red cape and just the red outline of the S shield on his chest.

It needs to be all black with more lines and more armor to be realistic.

No costume, just make her a business woman who knows some karate. That would be more realistic.

That's okay. But the belt buckle needs to be an S-shield and the suit should be all black with only a dark red outline of the S and the S-shield. It should have a high collar too and maybe a helmet and some armoring.

It needs to be all black and could use some more lines and armor to be really realistic.

Okay, you're a troll: WE GET IT. Give it a goddamn rest.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I actually liked the Batsuits of the Nolan films so far, and I eagerly await the next film. On the issue of colors, I can go with either the all black or gray and black color scheme, so long as it works. For the gray and black to work, it would need be a dark gray, like the charcoal gray of the classic Godzilla suits, for example. The colors should, in the shadows especially, blend together. I think one of the benefit of live action is that it is lot easier to have details in the same color then it is in a comic book, so contrast in color is not really needed as much.

 

[BatScot]

I never said that it couldnt have been done or that it would have been cheesy or wrong. All i am saying is that its better if Bruce is Batman because he is an idealist, an altruist, a superior human being rather than an obsessed vigilante

Okay, fair enough. But neither did I say that "the promise" had to be Wayne's only motivation but rather that it could have been part of the motivation without any detrimental effect to Nolan's story. You believe Nolan's omission of "the promise' in any form is better and you're welcome to that opinion. I do not share it and so I leave you with this: if Nolan had included "the vow" in some way, even if it was only a shot of Wayne hunched alone beside his parent's graves, NO ONE would have argued that scene was a weakness of the film on the grounds that the "comic book" reference did not somehow fit the idea of Bruce the idealist.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Dark Knight]

I agree 100%.

Also the following pages (that never cease to give me goosebumps) from Superman/Batman #76:

Great stuff and solid writing.

 

[Dark Knight]

I know, I know.... I strongly doubt they're going to change the mask but man I'd kill to see this:

Changes:

Pointy ears.

Thicker neck guard so his bubbly head won't look so awkward.

Attached the cape to his neck for a couple reasons. One, it's more comic-accurate. Two, it hides the awkward collar.

Slightly changed the design by the eyes so it gives him a meaner look.

Opened the mouth area a tad more.

This one is just for fun:

Credit to poster Bane for original manip.

Love the top one and would love to see something like that onscreen.

Point ears are cool...but they need to be shorter IMO.

Good job!

 

[mrbrownie]

Just watched TDK, and noticed or rather, I got bothered by some details about the suit that I would love they improvised on TDKR:

• The snorkel-googles effect of the mask's nose on Bale, he looks like he can only breathe through his mouth and in some scenes makes him sound congested and makes him pout.
• The legs, although in action I actually don't notice them, they're the weakest part of the suit, just behind the bat-bra.
• There's a perfect excuse for making the suit out of a special fabric or cloth, it can make the suit uniform and hide the separations between the plates. (I think this has been talked about before.)

I do prefer TDK's cowl over BB's, I find the nose and overall jaw lining better on TDK.

And damn! Bale's short!

 

[TerryMcGinnis]

And damn! Bale's short!

HAHAHAHA. NO. Bale is a tad above 6 ft, it's just that a lot of the time he's surrounded by even taller actors like Michael Caine (6 ft 1) and Morgan Freeman (6 ft 2).

 

[RoughNTumble]

I think TDK is the first time I've ever actually been disappointed by a batsuit.

Of course there's that action figure one at the end of batman and robin, but as a kid I wasn't disappointed in it, because it was just as silly as the rest of the movie.

 

[BatScot]

Great stuff and solid writing.

Solid writing, perhaps. Great, meh. For me it's too far in the opposite direction in the same way Miller took Batman too far into violence. That being said, TDKR (the real TDKR and not this 'Rises' blunder) IS great and as such gains some measure of deference. The truth is somewhere in the middle and I simply do not buy that a man would choose to dress himself in a preposterous costume and put his life at risk in ways that could only be described as indicative of suicidal tendencies because he felt grateful for having been spared. Now he may have come to that epiphany in later life and I don't have any particular problem with that sort of revisionist approach, but gratefulness is not the sort of thing that drives one to such extreme action. Anger is. And the first action of anger is rage. And rage seeks vengeance. And the need for vengeance is satisfied only when it is achieved or when after seeking vengeance for so long one comes at last to question the purpose of it.

 

[Mr. Earle]

The snorkel-googles effect of the mask's nose on Bale,

and in some scenes makes him sound congested and makes him pout.

Like in the interrogation scene.

 

[Lencho01]

Okay, you're a troll: WE GET IT. Give it a goddamn rest.

 

[Lone]

That cowl manip by Bane needs to be sent to Nolan. Damn that is badass.

 

[Chiroptera]

Okay, you're a troll: WE GET IT. Give it a goddamn rest.

The size of font must be smaller to be more realistic.

 

[moe]

Or maybe its a comic book movie where looks trump realism and common sense. Maybe... just maybe...

reading this makes me thank the skies for nolan... its chumps like you that allow for the trash that joel put out... going for looks over anything else... trying to sell em toyS!