The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread (NOT A LOUNGE) - - Part 57

[Norek]

Right now I'm envisioning Neeson's cameo being akin to Ursula's in this clip.

[YT]pLS86g3_NYI[/YT]

Minus the talking Seagull and singing of course...

Now Rag, the first time you mentioned this idea, this is exactly the scene that popped up in my mind!! t:

 

[Blue Sugar]

Ra's(Ducard) never died at the LOS temple in BB. He was saved by Bruce when he was sliding off the edge of the mountain, and then given to the old guy. So I don't see how you're making some connection that he died, and then came back to life to attack Gotham. It was spelled out in the movie that the faux Ra's was just a decoy, and that Ducard was the real Ra's all along, so I'm not buying that explanation.

Nolan's Ra's isn't immortal. It's just how it is.

It's a play on immortality.

Having an immortal Ra's in this universe, showing up in a cameo in TDKR would be awfully silly and bad.

 

[craigdbfan]

I think the immortality thing will be kept thematically by just having Talia eventually reveal herself. That's his heir and daughter so in a way he's still alive.

 

[Travesty]

It's a play on immortality.

Having an immortal Ra's in this universe, showing up in a cameo in TDKR would be awfully silly and bad.

How is it a play on immortality? That he was rescued by Bruce and came to Gotham like he originally planned, and then died? Nothing in the movie alludes to anything/anyone being immortal. I don't understand how some of you are saying it's a "play on immortality", cause I'm not seeing it at all. Because he had a decoy that died?

I think some of you are trying hard to make connections to his comic book counterpart, when it really just boils down to that part of his character being absent in these movies.

 

[dark_b]

Right now I'm envisioning Neeson's cameo being akin to Ursula's in this clip.

[YT]pLS86g3_NYI[/YT]

Minus the talking Seagull and singing of course...

so you think it could be that Bruce or Miranda will see Neeson in the mirror?

if this is what youthink i find it interesting that you use a cartoon as an example since TDKR is a comicbook movie. like spiderman 2 and 3? yes spiderman 3 was very bad heheh. and i understand forgeting that Dafoe was in the mirror in SM3. t:

 

[Travesty]

I think the immortality thing will be kept thematically by just having Talia eventually reveal herself. That's his heir and daughter so in a way he's still alive.

But that's just a silly thing to say. That's not immortality. My grandfather isn't immortal, because I'm alive today.

So I guess Martha and Thomas Wayne are alluded to being immortal, because Bruce is still around?

 

[hulk24]

has this been posted yet? http://insidemovies.ew.com/2012/04/15/the-dark-knight-rises-star-tom-hardy-talks-about-playing-bane-and-inventing-the-villains-controversial-voice-its-a-risk/

it's an interview with Tom Hardy about bane

 

[kvz5]

It's from the EW issue.

 

[hulk24]

oh ok I wasn't sure

 

[Ramsay Snow]

Through the use of his decoys, Ra's al Ghul would be 'immortal', just like Batman would be 'immortal' even though Bruce would die. Bruce might get killed, but Batman would 'live on'. The legend would live on. "If you make yourself more than just a man". So, Ra's may be dead, but I always thought that his ideals would live on through the League, so in that way his name lives on. That's how I saw it when I watched Begins.

 

[The Joker]

I guess Harvey Dent is immortal then since his legacy lives on 8 years later.

 

[Ramsay Snow]

@The Joker

Yeah, his legacy lives on through Gotham and gives the people hope, but how long can it last? His legacy's foundation has cracks and Bane will tear it down.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, his legacy lives on through Gotham and gives the people hope, but how long can it last? His legacy's foundation has cracks and Bane will tear it down.

How long can Ra's last since it has cracks and Batman will tear it down.

See how easy it is?

 

[Ramsay Snow]

@The Joker

Well, he seems to have lasted a very long time. The League seems to have lasted very long, right?

EDIT: I know what you mean, though. I just got those vibes when seeing TDK and listening to that Ra's' speech to Bruce, about inspiring people and making your name live on. I don't really see it as definitive, though - just my bizzare take on it t:.

 

[Brother Jack]

It's about the immortality of ideals and symbols than it is about any single person. The LOS had been around for thousands of years with the same principles. Ra's (Ducard) died in Begins but the ideals of his league presumably live on with Miranda Tate and possibly Bane (Bruce as well, but in a far more subtle way).

 

[camp Blood]

so my power lust bane is not likely

 

[Travesty]

It's about the immortality of ideals and symbols than it is about any single person. The LOS had been around for thousands of years with the same principles. Ra's (Ducard) died in Begins but the ideals of his league presumably live on with Miranda Tate and possibly Bane (Bruce as well, but in a far more subtle way).

But all those are attributed towards the LOS, not Ra's.

 

[Yurka]

I always thought it was clever the way they mentioned the idea of Ra's possibly being immortal with the whole "But is Ra's Al Ghul immortal?...." dialogue.

 

[The Joker]

@The Joker

Well, he seems to have lasted a very long time. The League seems to have lasted very long, right?

Oh so now you're placing a time limit on immortality. Immortality is forever. Unless they continue on after this then they're not immortal are they? But you're talking about the LOS there, not Ra's.

Travesty is right. Ra's was not immortal in any way. Ra's Al Ghul in the comics is immortal because he can dip himself in a Lazarus Pit any time and live on no matter what happens to him.

If your legacy living on after death makes you immortal then Dent is as immortal as Ra's.

 

[kvz5]

Oh so now you're placing a time limit on immortality. Immortality is forever. Unless they continue on after this then they're not immortal are they?

Travesty is right. Ra's was not immortal in any way. Ra's Al Ghul in the comics is immortal because he can dip himself in a Lazarus Pit any time and live on no matter what happens to him.

If your legacy living on after death makes you immortal then Dent is as immortal as Ra's.

 

[Norek]

How long can Ra's last since it has cracks and Batman will tear it down.

See how easy it is?

It's not the same, really.

To tear down Harvey's reputation and show the people of Gotham that it was all a lie is in no way comparable to how Batman can, will, or could, tear down Ra's al Ghul. Because Ra's represents an idea, a cause, an has died for it. People who support the same idea will always look up to him as a legend. Namely, any potential LoS members.

Dent supposedly supported an idea, and people look up to him as well. If someone tears down his reputation the way Bane will, it will never be repaired again. Even if people still support his ideas, he will never be who they'll look up to anymore, because he was full of **** and a lie. Therefore, his legend ends.

 

[The Batman]

Oh so now you're placing a time limit on immortality. Immortality is forever. Unless they continue on after this then they're not immortal are they? But you're talking about the LOS there, not Ra's.

Travesty is right. Ra's was not immortal in any way. Ra's Al Ghul in the comics is immortal because he can dip himself in a Lazarus Pit any time and live on no matter what happens to him.

If your legacy living on after death makes you immortal then Dent is as immortal as Ra's.

Love that Joker.

I realize the irony of this post.

 

[Ramsay Snow]

Oh so now you're placing a time limit on immortality. Immortality is forever. Unless they continue on after this then they're not immortal are they?

Travesty is right. Ra's was not immortal in any way. Ra's Al Ghul in the comics is immortal because he can dip himself in a Lazarus Pit any time and live on no matter what happens to him.

If your legacy living on after death makes you immortal then Dent is as immortal as Ra's.

No, sorry, I meant that Ra's has live for quite a long time. I think that his name can live forever throughout the League even though he's dead. Harvey's legacy might not live forever since he'll get exposed as a fraud. I think the legend of Batman will live forever in Gotham.

My apologies, I didn't mean to say that Ra's was immortal like in the comics. When I watched Begins, I though Ra's was an original character, I had no idea he was a classic Batman villain. Also, I wasn't really replying to Travesty or challenging him. Raganork's post reminded me of my own views so I'd post them, that's all.

 

[craigdbfan]

It's about the immortality of ideals and symbols than it is about any single person. The LOS had been around for thousands of years with the same principles. Ra's (Ducard) died in Begins but the ideals of his league presumably live on with Miranda Tate and possibly Bane (Bruce as well, but in a far more subtle way).

Well said.

But that's just a silly thing to say. That's not immortality. My grandfather isn't immortal, because I'm alive today.

So I guess Martha and Thomas Wayne are alluded to being immortal, because Bruce is still around?

Of course not. That's because you and your grandfather didn't create a cause, religion, movement that has taken wide effects on a whole city let alone the world that has been around for hundreds or thousands of years.

Religions for example are immortalized by still having people practice and keep the ideals of those who wrote it alive. A set of ideals and practices instituted by one person can certainly become immortal.

 

[The Joker]

It's not the same, really.

To tear down Harvey's reputation and show the people of Gotham that it was all a lie is in no way comparable to how Batman can, will, or could, tear down Ra's al Ghul. Because Ra's represents an idea, a cause, an has died for it. People who support the same idea will always look up to him as a legend. Namely, any potential LoS members.

Dent supposedly supported an idea, and people look up to him as well. If someone tears down his reputation the way Bane will, it will never be repaired again. Even if people still support his ideas, he will never be who they'll look up to anymore, because he was full of **** and a lie. Therefore, his legend ends.

It's the exact same. Harvey Dent, whether he's exposed as a fraud, or the deception of his corruption cover up is not exposed, he still has had a profound effect on Gotham City. The effects of his legacy on Gotham in those 8 years cannot be erased. He brought peace time to Gotham for 8 years.

Bane will apparently bring that to an end by exposing the cover up. Batman will bring the League down in a similar fashion.

Unless Ra's has any more offspring we don't know about, and unless the LOS has suffered two consecutive defeats on the same city before, then they are done after this. From what Ra's said in Begins, they have had a successful career in their endeavors with no resistance or defeat. They also don't have a constant leader who can keep reviving himself in a Lazarus Pit and keep their organization alive in the face of these defeats like the comics do.

Ra's is no more immortal than Dent.