The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread (NOT A LOUNGE) - - Part 57

[Travesty]

Of course not. That's because you and your grandfather don't have a cause, religion, movement that has taken wide effects on a whole city let alone the world and has been around for hundreds or thousands of years.

Religions for example are immortalized by still having people practice and keep the ideals of those who wrote it alive. A set of ideals and practices instituted by one person can certainly become immortal.

You're still missing the point that we're talking about Ra's. Ra's was the leader of the LOS at the time. Even Ra's talks about how the League has been around longer than him. Ra's isn't alluded to being immortal, because it's not just the Al Ghul legacy, it's the LOS'(for these movies). He was just the commander-in-chief for the time being before he died. In these movies, it's the Leagues ideals over Ra's'.

So the only thing that can be attributed to being "immortal" is the LOS, and even then, that's missing the point to what we were talking about, which was Ra's.

 

[Norek]

It's the exact same. Harvey Dent, whether he's exposed as a fraud, or the deception of his corruption cover up is not exposed, he still has had a profound effect on Gotham City. The effects of his legacy on Gotham in those 8 years cannot be erased. He brought peace time to Gotham for 8 years.

Bane will apparently bring that to an end by exposing the cover up. Batman will bring the League down in a similar fashion.

Unless Ra's has any more offspring we don't know about, and unless the LOS has suffered two consecutive defeats on the same city before, then they are done after this. They don't have a constant leader who can keep reviving himself in a Lazarus Pit and keep their organization alive.

Ra's is no more immortal than Dent.

How do you know that? How will he tear down Bane's reputation, and consequently, destroying the spirit of the LoS?

 

[The Joker]

How do you know that? How will he tear down Bane's reputation, and consequently, destroying the spirit of the LoS?

Let me put it to you this way; why is Bane bothering to expose Dent's corruption and start a revolution with Gotham's people? In fact why is he even bothering to plan a siege on Gotham if he simply intends to turn Gotham to ashes?

Doesn't that sound like a whole load of unnecessary trouble for a city he just intends to destroy? Unless he 'loses' in some way and tries to destroy the city as a last resort.

 

[Brother Jack]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Ra's is literally immortal, as in he's lived for thousands of years. But I do think the case can be made for a metaphorical immortality, where the ideals he stood for, what had been carried on for so long before him, would live on after him through his direct followers and family. His ideals were the league's and vice-versa. He embodied them, making him live on so to speak.

 

[Travesty]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Ra's is literally immortal, as in he's lived for thousands of years. But I do think the case can be made for a metaphorical immortality, where the ideals he stood for, what had been carried on for so long before him, would live on after him through his direct followers and family. His ideals were the league's and vice-versa. He embodied them, making him live on so to speak.

And that's the point I'm making. Those ideals have been in place longer than him. They weren't made up by Ra's himself, they are the LOS. The only thing that is metaphorically immortal, is the LOS, not Ra's.

I definitely wouldn't say a Preacher to a church is metaphorically immortal, because they preach the gospel.

 

[Norek]

Let me put it to you this way; why is Bane bothering to expose Dent's corruption and start a revolution with Gotham's people? In fact why is he even bothering to plan a siege on Gotham if he simply intends to turn Gotham to ashes?

Doesn't that sound like a whole load of unnecessary trouble for a city he just intends to destroy? Unless he 'loses' in some way and tries to destroy the city as a last resort.

I have no idea what his motivations are, so I cannot comment on that. To be honest I don't even believe the LOS are Bane's people in this film, but that's a whole other topic.

But the thing is, exposing Dent's corruption is turning white into black - thus breaking the spirit of those whom he has inspired. They were fooled. What they believed in wasn't true. I don't see how that could happen to Ra's - because he, unlike Dent, wasn't either fully white or fully black. He has a cause, which people may choose to believe in, or may choose not to. But to those who choose to believe in what he believed, he will remain a legend, because there's nothing really corrupted about him.

With Dent, yes, you're right, he has inspired good for the last 8 years. So in a way, he is immortal just like Ra's. But it's just because people were fooled into thinking he was something he wasn't. After his reputation is torn apart, they will never look up to this man when it comes to good inspiration, about anything. Unless a new cult emerges, which believes in people who backstab those who believe in them by tricking them into thinking they are something they aren't... If that makes sense... t: He could make a good example for those people.

 

[Norek]

And that's the point I'm making. Those ideals have been in place longer than him. They weren't made up by Ra's himself, they are the LOS. The only thing that is metaphorically immortal, is the LOS, not Ra's.

I definitely wouldn't say a Preacher to a church is metaphorically immortal, because they preach the gospel.

Then you could easily argue that national heroes aren't metaphorically immortal. Because for example, in my country, as I believe in all the others, national heroes have mostly believed in something that's been looooooooooooong established before they were even born. In most cased, they don't reinvent the wheel, they just know how to connect with people when it comes to preaching the ideal, the cause and so on. But at the end, people remember the actual person, right? There were probably hundreds, thousands of people who supported the idea, maybe way before the national hero was even conceived. But at the end, he's the one who's immortalized.

 

[The_Raganork]

Now Rag, the first time you mentioned this idea, this is exactly the scene that popped up in my mind!! t:

haha, was it? I'm not ashamed to admit I know about every line in from that movie. I also think this scene is pretty damned good.

so you think it could be that Bruce or Miranda will see Neeson in the mirror?

if this is what youthink i find it interesting that you use a cartoon as an example since TDKR is a comicbook movie. like spiderman 2 and 3? yes spiderman 3 was very bad heheh. and i understand forgeting that Dafoe was in the mirror in SM3. t:

I'm leaning towards Bruce at the moment, not based on any real information or facts, just because he looks a lot like Ra's now and I like the idea of him looking in the mirror and seeing that the man he's become is so similar to what Ra's al Ghul probably was.

Loses something he loves and retreats into the mountains, losing his way. The mountains in this case being Wayne Manor.

Not to mention the physical relations between the characters, Bale in some shots looks shockingly similar to Josh Pence as Ra's.

So I like that idea of him looking in the mirror and seeing al Ghul both literally and figuratively when looking at himself.

 

[doobie]

Indeed. Some characters plateau or don't have much in the way of character development once they reach the top. This film arc well and truly give us another hefty arc. It does take cues from BB in that he'll have to come back and retake Gotham, but different in that he's physically and mentally spent after actually being Batman.

Yes.. I was reading an article (I think it was about spider-man) the other day by a film critic, and he was saying, in his opinion, the only good story to tell about a superhero is the Origin. Because in the origin, they are developing, following an arc, and trying to get somewhere (becoming the hero), but after thay have become the Hero, they are no longer an active character but are just reacting to villains.

But maybe this trilogy will show us the 3 best stories there are to tell about a hero. The origin, the battle with the nemesis, and the end.

 

[The Joker]

I have no idea what his motivations are, so I cannot comment on that. To be honest I don't even believe the LOS are Bane's people in this film, but that's a whole other topic.

But the thing is, exposing Dent's corruption is turning white into black - thus breaking the spirit of those whom he has inspired. They were fooled. What they believed in wasn't true. I don't see how that could happen to Ra's - because he, unlike Dent, wasn't either fully white or fully black. He has a cause, which people may choose to believe in, or may choose not to. But to those who choose to believe in what he believed, he will remain a legend, because there's nothing really corrupted about him.

That's my point exactly. The only reason the LOS seem to be back is because Ra's has an offspring in Talia who is of course going to want to continue her father's work because he was her father.

Maybe Bane is a part of the LOS, or maybe he is a mercenary whom Talia is using to help her (I really hope Bane is not a puppet of the LOS like Scarecrow was). The prologue suggests Bane is his own man whom the CIA has been after for a while.

But I don't think Bane is going to all this trouble of taking siege of Gotham, turning Gothamites to his cause by exposing the Dent cover up just for giggles before he destroys the whole city.

That's something the Joker would do. Break Gotham's spirit by telling them their White Knight was as bad as he was, and then watch the anarchy spread. That's what Joker was after. According to Hardy, that is not Bane's style:

Listening to Hardy compare Bane to the scarred, clown-faced villain who terrorized Gotham City in The Dark Knight, you almost get the feeling of a revolutionary usurper with tremendous resources. “The Joker didn’t care—he just wanted to see the world burn, and he was a master of chaos and destruction, unscrupulous and crazy. Bane is not that guy,” says Hardy. “There is a very meticulous and calculated way about Bane. There is a huge orchestration of organization to his ambition. He is also a physical threat to Batman. There is nothing vague about Bane. No jokes. He’s a very clean, clear villain.”

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2012/04/...-the-villains-controversial-voice-its-a-risk/

I believe he decides to destroy Gotham after a defeat of some kind. It's a last resort tactic.

With Dent, yes, you're right, he has inspired good for the last 8 years. So in a way, he is immortal just like Ra's. But it's just because people were fooled into thinking he was something he wasn't. After his reputation is torn apart, they will never look up to this man when it comes to good inspiration, about anything. Unless a new cult emerges, which believes in people who backstab those who believe in them by tricking them into thinking they are something they aren't... If that makes sense... t: He could make a good example for those people.

That's not as far fetched as you think. Bane seemingly manages to convince a hell of a lot of Gothamites to his cause, which involves blowing up football fields (along with the players), killing Cops, releasing criminals, attacking and raiding the wealthy class of Gotham, and turning Gotham into a sealed off city under siege.

That sounds a lot worse than covering up Dent's crimes for a greater good.

 

[The_Raganork]

That sounds a lot worse than covering up Dent's crimes for a greater good.

This is hard to really prove in either case.

The lie Bruce and Gordon set up is a betrayal of the Gotham people.

This is always coming in the Philosophy of Religion. God had a choice to make people always good, He did not make that choice.

So we kill, steal, rape, ect...

Therefore God is questionable and the argument against that is that free will is a greater good than all other good.

Here in the case of TDK Batman and Gordon took away the people's free will. They kept a critical detail away from the people because they didn't trust the way they would react. Because of that the loss they're going to experience is going to be a hell of a lot worse.

Compounded to Dent's crime they now have the fact that everything created in his name and image is tainted and in some way also a lie.

So it could be worse

[Obi-Wan] From a certain point of view [/Obi-Wan]

 

[The Joker]

This is hard to really prove in either case.

The lie Bruce and Gordon set up is a betrayal of the Gotham people.

This is always coming in the Philosophy of Religion. God had a choice to make people always good, He did not make that choice.

So we kill, steal, rape, ect...

Therefore God is questionable and the argument against that is that free will is a greater good than all other good.

Here in the case of TDK Batman and Gordon took away the people's free will. They kept a critical detail away from the people because they didn't trust the way they would react. Because of that the loss they're going to experience is going to be a hell of a lot worse.

Compounded to Dent's crime they now have the fact that everything created in his name and image is tainted and in some way also a lie.

So it could be worse

[Obi-Wan] From a certain point of view [/Obi-Wan]

I get people would be upset by the cover up, but the rational reaction to learning about a lie that brought 8 years of peace is not to turn into criminals, and join a mass murdering terrorist.

Honestly that is the biggest overreaction of the century. But that isn't the point I was making. I'm saying if Gotham can be swayed into joining Bane and following a man who does all the horrendously evil things I mentioned, then people who think the Dent cover up was justified for a noble cause is not as far fetched as you think.

 

[Norek]

haha, was it? I'm not ashamed to admit I know about every line in from that movie. I also think this scene is pretty damned good.

Yeah, that's why I was surprised when you posted the video. I'm not ashamed to admit that is my favorite animated movie of all time.

But I don't think Bane is going to all this trouble of taking siege of Gotham, turning Gothamites to his cause by exposing the Dent cover up just for giggles before he destroys the whole city.

Yes, I absolutely agree. But the thing is, no matter how much spoilers or clues we have, for me, his motivations are still a mystery. So that's why I won't be absolutely convinced of anything until I see the actual film. But yes, there's certainly more to his siege than just that.

That's not as far fetched as you think. Bane seemingly manages to convince a hell of a lot of Gothamites to his cause, which involves blowing up football fields (along with the players), killing Cops, releasing criminals, attacking and raiding the wealthy class of Gotham, and turning Gotham into a sealed off city under siege.

That sounds a lot worse than covering up Dent's crimes for a greater good.

Sure, but what are you trying to say here? That Bane's legend will die after Batman defeats him by exposing him, or somehow damaging his reputation? Yes, that might happen, but even so, how does that have anything to do with Ra's and his legend? As I said, I believe Bane is his own man, and he's not leading the LoS. He's not the new Ra's. His ideal, his cause and what he preaches is not the same as Ra's. So even if Batman defeats him in a similar fashion to how Bane destroys Harvey, that won't affect Ra's in any way. Unless of course I'm proven wrong and the LoS are indeed following Bane. But at this point, it seems unlikely to me.

 

[The_Raganork]

I get people would be upset by the cover up, but the rational reaction to learning about a lie that brought 8 years of peace is not to turn into criminals, and join a mass murdering terrorist.

There's probably more to it than just joining him for those reason.

Earlier we had a small, albeit interesting, discussion about Bane and control. It's a couple of pages back.

Long story short though: Bane controls everything, they need him to survive and when people go against him those who have the little they do get punished. So those willing to be complacent turn on those willing to stand up for the right thing.

Honestly that is the biggest overreaction of the century. But that isn't the point I was making. I'm saying if Gotham can be swayed into joining Bane and following a man who does all the horrendously evil things I mentioned, then people who think the Dent cover up was justified for a noble cause is not as far fetched as you think.

I'm of two minds about this to be honest, I see the merit in what you're saying but I can still see the inherit issue as well.

 

[TinkerTailor]

I get people would be upset by the cover up, but the rational reaction to learning about a lie that brought 8 years of peace is not to turn into criminals, and join a mass murdering terrorist.

Honestly that is the biggest overreaction of the century. But that isn't the point I was making. I'm saying if Gotham can be swayed into joining Bane and following a man who does all the horrendously evil things I mentioned, then people who think the Dent cover up was justified for a noble cause is not as far fetched as you think.

You're absolutely right and I think a pretty big part of how Gothamites following Bane is going to be sold will rely on what Nolan said about Gotham seething underneath in spite of the apparent peace. Why are they seething? Has something catastrophic already happened in the 8 year gap to make Gotham a more unfair society?

 

[The Joker]

Sure, but what are you trying to say here? That Bane's legend will die after Batman defeats him by exposing him, or somehow damaging his reputation? Yes, that might happen, but even so, how does that have anything to do with Ra's and his legend? As I said, I believe Bane is his own man, and he's not leading the LoS. He's not the new Ra's. His ideal, his cause and what he preaches is not the same as Ra's. So even if Batman defeats him in a similar fashion to how Bane destroys Harvey, that won't affect Ra's in any way. Unless of course I'm proven wrong and the LoS are indeed following Bane. But at this point, it seems unlikely to me.

Not Bane's legend, the LOS one. Which I think is only being revived anyway because of Talia, the daughter of Ra's. I cannot fathom any other reason why she's in this movie otherwise, masquerading as a nice board member on Wayne Enterprises.

I believe this is the last throw of the dice for the LOS. They failed once to take down Gotham, their leader was killed, they were gone for 9 long years. They're only back now because of Talia, IMO.

There's probably more to it than just joining him for those reason.

Earlier we had a small, albeit interesting, discussion about Bane and control. It's a couple of pages back.

Long story short though: Bane controls everything, they need him to survive and when people go against him those who have the little they do get punished. So those willing to be complacent turn on those willing to stand up for the right thing.

It's a nice theory, but I think if Bane could simply force people to either join him or suffer, then that's how he'd do it. I think he uses the Dent cover up as the platform to divide Gotham's people. Those that refuse to join a terrorist, and those brain washed by the justification of rebellion against authority for the deception.

"Gotham take control of your city"

 

[The Joker]

You're absolutely right and I think a pretty big part of how Gothamites following Bane is going to be sold will rely on what Nolan said about Gotham seething underneath in spite of the apparent peace. Why are they seething? Has something catastrophic already happened in the 8 year gap to make Gotham a more unfair society?

Exactly. I think it all rests on the Harvey Dent cover up, which Nolan has said is explored in this:

In fact, fans may want to revisit that second film, as Nolan tells EW that the last chapter of his cinematic saga explores the ramifications of The Dark Knight’s chilling climax, in which Batman and super-cop Jim Gordon (Gary Oldman) hatch a conspiracy to cover up the sins of Gotham City’s so-called “white knight,” the late Harvey Dent, a.k.a. Two-Face (Aaron Eckhart).

http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/01/11/this-weeks-cover-dark-knight-rises-forecast-2012/

Exploring the ramifications of the Dent cover up sounds like this whole rebellious siege is based on that. It's the whole foundation of Bane's rebellion in Gotham's people.

 

[TinkerTailor]

Exactly. I think it all rests on the Harvey Dent cover up, which Nolan has said is explored in this:



http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/01/11/this-weeks-cover-dark-knight-rises-forecast-2012/

Exploring the ramifications of the Dent cover up sounds like this whole rebellious siege is based on that. It's the whole foundation of Bane's rebellion in Gotham's people.

I don't think that's the only reason people would be inclined to rebel though. It seems to be one of the final straws to add to the camel's back. Selina refers to an oncoming storm in the trailer, and for people to do an about turn from socially acceptable behaviour and align themselves with a mass murdering terrorist must mean that there are further underlying issues away from The Harvey Dent Act. We know the economy's going to be prominent. I wonder if TDKR will focus on the corruption within the political and economic systems in the way that BB and TDK looked at the mob/police corruption.

 

[Sharkboy]

Clearly it's just how things were naturally, now all the bad guys are gone, it doesn't stop the economical problems that turned people into desperate men, and there will always be people looking to cash in on that desperation like Falcone and Maroni did. It's a cycle, the Dent act was merely a bandaid on a bullet wound. It was the cycle that killed Bruce's parents in the first place. Maybe it's time for bruce to stop going out and beating thugs and to inspire people with money (like him) to take a deeper interest into helping them out, instead of growing fat on their hard work. I think the only way for Bruce to inspire both sides is by going public with both sides aka revealing he is Batman.

There was an article which revealed that a Fritz Lang movie was one of the many inspirations for this film, this whole thing screams of Metropolis and being the mediator of the hands and mind.

 

[TinkerTailor]

Clearly it's just how things were naturally, now all the bad guys are gone, it doesn't stop the economical problems that turned people into desperate men, and there will always be people looking to cash in on that desperation like Falcone and Maroni did. It's a cycle, the Dent act was merely a bandaid on a bullet wound. It was the cycle that killed Bruce's parents in the first place. Maybe it's time for bruce to stop going out and beating thugs and to inspire people with money (like him) to take a deeper interest into helping them out, instead of growing fat on their hard work. I think the only way for Bruce to inspire both sides is by going public with both sides aka revealing he is Batman.

There was an article which revealed that a Fritz Lang movie was one of the many inspirations for this film, this whole thing screams of Metropolis and being the mediator of the hands and mind.

Nolan referred to Bruce's only super power being his money too, so I'd expect it to factor into the eventual resolution. I still think to sell (pardon the pun) the concept of Bane amassing so many followers things would have to be extremely bad in Gotham before he arrived anyway though.

 

[The Joker]

I don't think that's the only reason people would be inclined to rebel though. It seems to be one of the final straws to add to the camel's back. Selina refers to an oncoming storm in the trailer, and for people to do an about turn from socially acceptable behaviour and align themselves with a mass murdering terrorist must mean that there are further underlying issues away from The Harvey Dent Act. We know the economy's going to be prominent. I wonder if TDKR will focus on the corruption within the political and economic systems in the way that BB and TDK looked at criminal/police corruption.

Selina warning Bruce about the forthcoming storm against the wealthy, and Bane's apparent vendetta against the economy, suggests Selina is somehow in the know about the forthcoming assault on Gotham. There's also the info regarding Gordon uncovering an "internal" plot against Gotham and that's why he gets hospitalized. Nolan did recently describe Catwoman as a "world class criminal" with an underlying darkness.

Popular theory is she changes sides at some point in the movie and goes from antagonist to protagonist. That's rather obvious judging by some of the set pics.

 

[The_Raganork]

Selina warning Bruce about the forthcoming storm against the wealthy, and Bane's apparent vendetta against the economy, suggests Selina is somehow in the know about the forthcoming assault on Gotham. There's also the info regarding Gordon uncovering an "internal" plot against Gotham and that's why he gets hospitalized. Nolan did recently describe Catwoman as a "world class criminal" with an underlying darkness.

Popular theory is she changes sides at some point in the movie and goes from antagonist to protagonist. That's rather obvious judging by some of the set pics.

While I don't disagree with you, Oldman made comments some time ago that basically the writing is on the wall, essentially.

I don't think it necessarily suggest Selina knows anything about Bane but instead has her ear to the street and knows that people in gotham's underbelly are angry. The middle and lower class are resentful and mad at the upper class for leaving them behind.

While Gotham healed on the surface it left the majority of it's people behind.

It feels as if it might be on the brink of happening, Bane or not.

 

[TinkerTailor]

Selina warning Bruce about the forthcoming storm against the wealthy, and Bane's apparent vendetta against the economy, suggests Selina is somehow in the know about the forthcoming assault on Gotham. There's also the info regarding Gordon uncovering an "internal" plot against Gotham and that's why he gets hospitalized. Nolan did recently describe Catwoman as a "world class criminal" with an underlying darkness.

Popular theory is she changes sides at some point in the movie and goes from antagonist to protagonist. That's rather obvious judging by some of the set pics.

Yep. The first time the LOS went after Gotham they used economics. Second time was a full on doomsday plot. This time I think it could be both. Create instability over a number of years through corruption of the political and economic systems, before finally coming in and taking over the city with extreme trauma. Christ, TDKR is now making me want to reread The Shock Doctrine.

 

[Travesty]

Then you could easily argue that national heroes aren't metaphorically immortal. Because for example, in my country, as I believe in all the others, national heroes have mostly believed in something that's been looooooooooooong established before they were even born. In most cased, they don't reinvent the wheel, they just know how to connect with people when it comes to preaching the ideal, the cause and so on. But at the end, people remember the actual person, right? There were probably hundreds, thousands of people who supported the idea, maybe way before the national hero was even conceived. But at the end, he's the one who's immortalized.

Yes, but the argument was that it was Nolan's way to apply a more realistic take to Ra's immortality, which it isn't, because the exact same thing can be said about Batman and Two-Face. It's not his way of making Ra's immortal, because Ra's isn't immortal in these movies: bottom line.

 

[The_Raganork]

Right it had nothing to do with immortality, which is why Ra's used that exact word upon his return.