The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 105

[markjoedelonge]

If the death of Batman is the inciting factor in persuading Gothamites to start cleaning up, that would defeat the purpose of him becoming Batman, because as Bruce said in BB, people would still need dramatic examples to shake them out of their apathy. So if Batman's death spurs Gotham on, one can argue that dramatic examples are still need to shake them, and Batman therefore didn't accomplish anything.

 

[BatDog]

Possibly through Rameriez, and she could be spreading the rumor and easily someone finds out like Bane. She is still alive, Two-Face let her live.

When I first heard that the ramifications of Harvey's death would be relevant, I was sure it was the Joker. However, Nolan seems to have debunked that theory entirely.

 

[Art Damage]

Is anyone else worried that the end of the film is going to be something you're not hoping for? Like, I'm eager for the film and I want to keep it that way insteading of dreading what the ending is.

Hyperbolic I know, but there's always the worry that it could be one of the endings that might leave a sour note on some fans. =/

 

[Solidus]

And other people taking up the mantle, or even just remembering and using it as a symbol, as many do with heroes or saviors in religion or mythology, Batman has succeed, the dramatic"ness" of the symbol of Batman can always manifest in many ways, with flesh and without. The symbol is what will carry on forever. It's what his parents could not do, was create a symbol.

 

[joker27]

I'm still curious as to how the secrets behind Harvey's death are discovered by Bane?

Its very likely he gets it out of Gordon. He does kidnap him.

 

[georgec]

I've always imagined the final shot being a sort of "Gangs of New York" style ending, showing Gotham rebuild, clean up, and flourish.

With U2's "The Hands That Built America" in the background!

 

[Solidus]

Is anyone else worried that the end of the film is going to be something you're not hoping for? Like, I'm eager for the film and I want to keep it that way insteading of dreading what the ending is.

Hyperbolic I know, but there's always the worry that it could be one of the endings that might leave a sour note on some fans. =/

No. It's actually my most anticipated part. Nolan is great with endings, and since they started with the ending first in TDKR and worked from there that excites me more. Yes some will be angry, some were pissed that Two-Face died in TDK and Batman took the fall for murder. New things upset some, but it I think will be a very small minority, since those on the internet already are. But if it works in the context, and gives us something new that's what I'm excited for. Not knowing what will happen is half the fun to me.

 

[Carnotaur3]

No because Gotham is not going to be safe for eternity, that would be foolish to think so. Bruce is creating a symbol for the good to rally behind when things go bad, and have something that people will fight for, and continue to fight for. Bruce is a man, not some magician that will magically make it where crime never rises up again. Evil always does. If there is the everlasting eternal symbol of the Batman for the city and good citizens to rally behind, Bruce has succeeded.

Yeah but the crazy evil villains came out of the woodwork because of Batman and Batman was a response to the corruption of people.

 

[Solidus]

Yeah but the crazy evil villains came out of the woodwork because of Batman and Batman was a response to the corruption of people.

Yes, the freaks did. But the mob and Gotham being under massive corruption before Batman had nothing to do with him. Crime and organized crime can and will rise again. Evil always does.

 

[Mav]

No because Gotham is not going to be safe for eternity, that would be foolish to think so. Bruce is creating a symbol for the good to rally behind when things go bad, and have something that people will fight for, and continue to fight for. Bruce is a man, not some magician that will magically make it where crime never rises up again. Evil always does. If there is the everlasting eternal symbol of the Batman for the city and good citizens to rally behind, Bruce has succeeded.

I agree, there will always be evil, and I understand what Bruce wants Batman to be. I never said that batman has to rid the city and the world of evil in order for his mission to be a success, but if Gotham is still in a state of apathy at the end of this, and Bruce can no longer go on as batman, then what has Bruce really accomplished?

 

[The Apocalypse]

Yeah but the crazy evil villains came out of the woodwork because of Batman and Batman was a response to the corruption of people.

The League of Shadows was coming with or without Batman. So it was only The Joker and you could argue he was also around before Batman. I mean, unless you were talking about the comic too.

 

[Mav]

Possibly through Rameriez, and she could be spreading the rumor and easily someone finds out like Bane. She is still alive, Two-Face let her live.

I thought about her as a possible source. That would be a nice surprise if she had a cameo in the movie, and with it ending by Bane killing her after he has his info

 

[Solidus]

I agree, there will always be evil, and I understand what Bruce wants Batman to be. I never said that batman has to rid the city and the world of evil in order for his mission to be a success, but if Gotham is still in a state of apathy at the end of this, and Bruce can no longer go on as batman, then what has Bruce really accomplished?

The apathy was more so focused in Begins, and he did shake them out of it, Dent was proof of this, and so was the sons of the Batman. He succeeded that mission long ago. They do something with the Harvey Dent act making crime almost "non-existent" according to Blake. People can always go back into apathy especially as generations go on. But the symbol of the Bat can shake that.

Especially when he becomes a legend.

Bruce accomplished a lot, this will be not just him saving Gotham, but coming to an understanding of Bruce himself. He technically did accomplish everything at the beginning of TDKR Batman is no longer needed, but he has to come back. But of course there is much more going on that we don't know about, it will be a focused journey on Bruce and overcoming many things personally.

 

[Bat]

I agree, there will always be evil, and I understand what Bruce wants Batman to be. I never said that batman has to rid the city and the world of evil in order for his mission to be a success, but if Gotham is still in a state of apathy at the end of this, and Bruce can no longer go on as batman, then what has Bruce really accomplished?

Gotham will always need a hero, and Bruce will have made his mark as that hero by the end as Batman. He will be that hero. Mission accomplished, but perhaps in a different way.

 

[Rapunzel]

Awesome post.

Thank you.

I personally don't understand all this " Batman should die and be an inspiration to gotham".

It's lunacy really; if batman dies then he's just a guy who was vigilante who may or may not done good, depending on whether you blame him for a) being the cause of gotham getting invaded by bane in the first place and/or b) making up the stuff about Harvey.

Do people really think a dead Batman would suddenly become a beacon of hope? Even if he died for Gotham the legend is subject to stories and conspiracy theories and would have a hard time sustaining itself. Most people would probably be confused as to what Batman stood for.

That's the problem with symbols: they're interpretive.

A man and his actions are not. Bruce wayne has to be revealed as Batman for Batman's death to truly mean something.

And why should a man die to mean something when he can live and mean something more?

 

[Solidus]

Thank you.

I personally don't understand all this " Batman should die and be an inspiration to gotham".

It's lunacy really; if batman dies then he's just a guy who was vigilante who may or may not done good, depending on whether you blame him for a) being the cause of gotham getting invaded by bane in the first place and/or b) making up the stuff about Harvey.

Do people really think a dead Batman would suddenly become a beacon of hope? Even if he died for Gotham the legend is subject to stories and conspiracy theories and would have a hard time sustaining itself. Most people would probably be confused as to what Batman stood for.

That's the problem with symbols: they're interpretive.

A man and his actions are not. Bruce wayne has to be revealed as Batman for Batman's death to truely mean something.

And why should a man die to mean something when he can live and mean something more?

Well in lots of religions the savior does mean something more after death but most savior stories and mythoglies in general, when a huge hero dies, the legend grows, and becomes even more important to people. People would not, the myth and story of Batman would always be remembered as one that fought for justice and sacrificed everything. Does he need to be revealed, it could go either way and be just fine. He may die because there is no other option, that is something you are not taking into any consideration. I don't think Bruce "wants" to die, that is where you are confusing it, but if he has to to save Gotham, it is what he will do, because he's always been willing to do it, jumping from rooftops getting shot at every night is not good for your health.

And if the ending leaves a possibility for others to take up the mantle, or people like the sons of the Batman, then Gotham would not think he was dead, he has become more then just a man to them.

 

[TheNewGirl]

Thank you.

I personally don't understand all this " Batman should die and be an inspiration to gotham".

It's lunacy really; if batman dies then he's just a guy who was vigilante who may or may not done good, depending on whether you blame him for a) being the cause of gotham getting invaded by bane in the first place and/or b) making up the stuff about Harvey.

Do people really think a dead Batman would suddenly become a beacon of hope? Even if he died for Gotham the legend is subject to stories and conspiracy theories and would have a hard time sustaining itself. Most people would probably be confused as to what Batman stood for.

That's the problem with symbols: they're interpretive.

A man and his actions are not. Bruce wayne has to be revealed as Batman for Batman's death to truly mean something.

And why should a man die to mean something when he can live and mean something more?

Agreed. At this point Batman might as well mean nothing to gotham. It won't inspire people, just confuse them.

Something else will happen, Im sure Nolan has thought this through VERY thoroughly for years and years. I wouldn't doubt the man on the ending.

 

[Spideyfan93]

I know this is random, but in the 3rd trailer...there's a shot of the Mayor reacting to shattered glass.

And then in the new trailer and commercials, there's a shot of one of the booths exploding. This does not bode well for Mr. Major from LOST.

 

[Carnotaur3]

The League of Shadows was coming with or without Batman. So it was only The Joker and you could argue he was also around before Batman. I mean, unless you were talking about the comic too.

That was one thing Batman and LOS shared in common. They were direct responses from corruption. Less corruption means less crazy villains.

In order to get rid of the cancer, you take out the tumor responsible for it. And that's what Batman is doing. Of course there will always be evil. Of course there will always be crime. But the point is, if Batman can become a symbol, then the people can stand up for themselves without the need of one person doing it for them. And maybe the city can heal and inspire good in others.

 

[Bat]

I know this is random, but in the 3rd trailer...there's a shot of the Mayor reacting to shattered glass.

And then in the new trailer and commercials, there's a shot of one of the booths exploding. This does not bode well for Mr. Major from LOST.

Spoiler

Yes, he's a goner.

 

[Mav]

The apathy was more so focused in Begins, and he did shake them out of it, Dent was proof of this, and so was the sons of the Batman. He succeeded that mission long ago. They do something with the Harvey Dent act making crime almost "non-existent" according to Blake. People can always go back into apathy especially as generations go on. But the symbol of the Bat can shake that.

Especially when he becomes a legend.

Bruce accomplished a lot, this will be not just him saving Gotham, but coming to an understanding of Bruce himself. He technically did accomplish everything at the beginning of TDKR Batman is no longer needed, but he has to come back. But of course there is much more going on that we don't know about, it will be a focused journey on Bruce and overcoming many things personally.

I agree with all of your points, Solidus. What got me started with my point is that I believe giving the mantle of batman to Blake would be an unnecessary move, and in a way it takes away from Bruce's story. Like you say, this is Bruce's journey, and I want it to be focused on him, and not it building up to Blake taking over.

 

[BatLobster]

And if the ending leaves a possibility for others to take up the mantle, or people like the sons of the Batman, then Gotham would not think he was dead, he has become more then just a man to them.

Well, I think the Sons of Batman angle was explored in TDK with Citizens for Batman. So this Gotham isn't ignorant to the idea of copycat Batmen.

Also, I like the guy...but yeah, I'd be extremely disappointed if the conclusion to this amazing trilogy is Joseph Gordon Levitt putting on the cowl. He's a good actor, but he's not Batman. Sorry.

 

[Carnotaur3]

I agree with all of your points, Solidus. What got me started with my point is that I believe giving the mantle of batman to Blake would be an unnecessary move, and in a way it takes away from Bruce's story. Like you say, this is Bruce's journey, and I want it to be focused on him, and not it building up to Blake taking over.

What would make Blake qualify for the job anyway?

Good-natured doesn't cut it. lol

 

[Anno_Domini]

I thought about her as a possible source. That would be a nice surprise if she had a cameo in the movie, and with it ending by Bane killing her after he has his info

Reese and Ramirez are two huge plot points that need to be answered, but if only one one gets tied up(such as Ramirez showing up and also dying), I'd be fine with that.

 

[Bat]

What would make Blake qualify for the job anyway?

Good-natured doesn't cut it. lol

Maybe we don't know all the details on Blake right now. He doesn't have to become Batman even if given the choice, maybe he sees a different opportunity.