The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 105

[Solidus]

I agree with all of your points, Solidus. What got me started with my point is that I believe giving the mantle of batman to Blake would be an unnecessary move, and in a way it takes away from Bruce's story. Like you say, this is Bruce's journey, and I want it to be focused on him, and not it building up to Blake taking over.

First Blake is really a personofication of us the audiance, and the heart of Gotham itself, you need this aspect to make Bruce's journey mean anything. And in the end if Blake is what continues Bruce's legacy, it is still focused on Bruce, just others continuing the torch in some fashion.

Well, I think the Sons of Batman angle was explored in TDK with Citizens for Batman. So this Gotham isn't ignorant to the idea of copycat Batmen.

Also, I like the guy...but yeah, I'd be extremely disappointed if the conclusion to this amazing trilogy is Joseph Gordon Levitt putting on the cowl. He's a good actor, but he's not Batman. Sorry.

So you've decided that can't happen already? Sad I guess, I trust Nolan with what he's doing, and I love new ideas. But I remember back in 03 people not wanting Bale, and some still say Keaton wasn't Batman ect lol. But I'm not saying he will necessarily be Batman, but in some fashion carry the torch, and remind people of him in other ways, even just being the storyteller and passing it on to others down the road.

Gotham isn't fully ignorant, but the Sons were clumsy and really did not stand for him, they were nothing more then angry vigilantes that were not worthy of the title. Gotham knows he is a man, but it's about a man becoming a legend and a myth. Looking at all mythologies and religion this does happen, and people may do things with those symbols for good or bad down the road this is true, but in the context of these films, I think they will lean more towards good.

 

[joker27]

Is Blake part of the final battle? We've seen Gordon, Catwoman and even Modine. Wouldn't Blake be with Gordon or Modine during the final battle? Unless he bites the dust before?

 

[Joker594]

Speaking of the ending. . .

Spoiler

[BLACKOUT]Has anyone debunked/proven the supposed Raganork/Rocketman ending yet?[/BLACKOUT]

I guess that's a no then?

 

[JKMoneyShizzle]

I thought about her as a possible source. That would be a nice surprise if she had a cameo in the movie, and with it ending by Bane killing her after he has his info

Spoiler

bane does bring someone on to the football field after the explosion and kills them with his bare hands, maybe its her and then tells gotham the truth about its "white knight"

 

[kvz5]

Is Blake part of the final battle? We've seen Gordon, Catwoman and even Modine. Wouldn't Blake be with Gordon or Modine during the final battle? Unless he bites the dust before?

He's MIA during the chase. There's some speculation that he's off somewhere doing something (like helping the Gothamites escape or something).

 

[Carnotaur3]

First Blake is really a personofication of us the audiance, and the heart of Gotham itself, you need this aspect to make Bruce's journey mean anything.

That's all I think he is. Blake grew up with Batman. And it's inspired him. He was the next generation and it's people like him who are making sure Batman is remembered. I like that TV spot where he's talking to the child and he's sort of surprised that the kid knows.

 

[Rapunzel]

Well in lots of religions the savior does mean something more after death but most savior stories and mythoglies in general, when a huge hero dies, the legend grows, and becomes even more important to people. People would not, the myth and story of Batman would always be remembered as one that fought for justice and sacrificed everything. Does he need to be revealed, it could go either way and be just fine. He may die because there is no other option, that is something you are not taking into any consideration. I don't think Bruce "wants" to die, that is where you are confusing it, but if he has to to save Gotham, it is what he will do, because he's always been willing to do it, jumping from rooftops getting shot at every night is not good for your health.

Religious symbols are interpretive and not everyone believes because myths are murky business. Thus the myth of Batman is a weak thing. He's just some strange guy dressed as a bat dying to save everyone, which people might think is Messiah behavior or just a nutcase who got the end he deserved by playing vigilante.

Now if it's Bruce wayne dying, everyone could get behind him. He means something to them.

Bats dying = dynamic symbol filled and changed by each individual's pov.

Bruce as Bats dying= static symbol of rich man showing the poor that the rich do care.

Which is better? The second. And if Bruce dying is better than bats dying why should we viewers want bruce to die?

A man whose death could mean so much should live and have greater meaning. We should be wanting Bruce to live and do more long term for gotham than die and have less impact.

 

[JKMoneyShizzle]

Is Blake part of the final battle? We've seen Gordon, Catwoman and even Modine. Wouldn't Blake be with Gordon or Modine during the final battle? Unless he bites the dust before?

Spoiler

there have been sources that say he lives and others say he dies, his best chance of dying possibly is seen in the trailer where it looks like he is on his knees, his hands are raised and he looks afraid of someone and that he may be killed

 

[Solidus]

Blake may not even be at the end. Ya I'm not saying that I want it one way or the other. That is my point. I think some fear the finality, because it is somewhat of a new terriotry. (well not really Batman Beyond worked fine, so did The Dark Knight Returns, Batman RIP ect) but some just don't like the idea of it ending.

To me I just trust the ending in the context of this universe and story. I'm stoked for the unknown. I'm not going to sit and say I don't want this, this and this. We have no idea how it will work in the context, that's why I prefer to go into it with an open mind, if it works it does if not it doesn't. But honestly I don't have a list of things I won't want to see and so forth.

 

[joker27]

He's MIA during the chase. There's some speculation that he's off somewhere doing something (like helping the Gothamites escape or something).

Very possible. I just thought if he was that crucial of a character he'd at least be present during that part of the film. But knowing Nolan's crosscutting he can be definitely doing something that wasn't shot in the same location.

 

[Carnotaur3]

Reese and Ramirez are two huge plot points that need to be answered, but if only one one gets tied up(such as Ramirez showing up and also dying), I'd be fine with that.

Reese was probably fired and Ramirez was probably found out to be the one who led Rachel to her death. Ramirez is rotting in prison and Reese is still thinking about how much he ****ed up.

There. Now you know. haha

 

[Anno_Domini]

Reese was probably fired and Ramirez was probably found out to be the one who led Rachel to her death. Ramirez is rotting in prison and Reese is still thinking about how much he ****ed up.

There. Now you know. haha

But it's not canon! Lol.

 

[Solidus]

Religious symbols are interpretive and not everyone believes because myths are murky business. Thus the myth of Batman is a weak thing. He's just some strange guy dressed as a bat dying to save everyone, which people might think is Messiah behavior or just a nutcase who got the end he deserved by playing vigilante.

Now if it's Bruce wayne dying, everyone could get behind him. He means something to them.

Bats dying = dynamic symbol filledand changed by each individual's pov.

Bruce as Bats dying= static symbol of rich man showing the poor that the rich do care.

Which is better? The second. And if Bruce dying is better than bats dying why should we viewers want bruce to die?

A man whose death could mean so much should live and have greater meaning. We should be wanting Bruce to live and do more long term for gotham than die and have less impact.

And I'm not saying no to any of those, but honestly Batman/Bruce may have to die though. He may not want to, but if he has no choice he will. I still think it will have an impact on many people, not everyone, but many.

 

[BatLobster]

So you've decided that can't happen already? Sad I guess, I trust Nolan with what he's doing, and I love new ideas. But I remember back in 03 people not wanting Bale, and some still say Keaton wasn't Batman ect lol. But I'm not saying he will necessarily be Batman, but in some fashion carry the torch, and remind people of him in other ways, even just being the storyteller and passing it on to others down the road.

I trust Nolan too, enough to know that he wouldn't make JGL in a Bat-suit his big send-off

But no, I'm open to almost any idea as long as it's executed right. I just feel being a cop with a good heart doesn't qualify one to take up the mantle. I don't think it sends the right message. Honestly I just see John Blake being like "The Kid" in the Matrix sequels, only much less over-the-top haha. A guy who believes in Batman and will end up rallying people behind him. So yeah, I'm fine with the idea of him being a "keeper of the legend" of sorts for the next generation.

The only way I'd truly be in favor of him taking over was if Bruce were to actually train him ala Dick Grayson/Terry McGuinness, but I don't see that happening in this film. But, at this point anything is still possible.

 

[Carnotaur3]

You might have to consider that if Batman does die, and if not by the explosive, then he will be found out to be Bruce Wayne as well. And maybe that is the clincher. Maybe people need to know he was not a super hero. Maybe they need to know that a human like themselves is capable of great things.

Maybe the mythic and the reality have to blend for the message to carry on.

 

[Rapunzel]

And I'm not saying no to any of those, but honestly Batman may have to die though. He may not want to, but if he has no choice he will. I still think it will have an impact on many people, not everyone, but many.

And I'm not saying bats dying couldn't happen. You're right that he may have no choice. And yeah, he'd probably affect many people no matter what.

I'm just saying I'd rather he live. He could accomplish more. And I don't understand why so many people seem to think bats/bruce dying is a good, inspirational ending.

It's okay but generic and I think bruce living to inspire is more creative and better for gotham.

 

[Solidus]

Just can't believe it's now 29 more days! Less than a month wow.

 

[Carnotaur3]

I'm just saying I'd rather he live. He could accomplish more. And I don't understand why so many people seem to think bats/bruce dying is a good, inspirational ending.

Because there's no greater love than when a man lay down his life for his brother's.

 

[Rapunzel]

You might have to consider that if Batman does die, and if not by the explosive, then he will be found out to be Bruce Wayne as well. And maybe that is the clincher. Maybe people need to know he was not a super hero. Maybe they need to know that a human like themselves is capable of great things.

Maybe the mythic and the reality have to blend for the message to carry on.

So true! The symbol has no meaning if disconnected from reality. This is why harvey will be such a lousy symbol. His story isn't located in reality

 

[Solidus]

And I'm not saying bats dying couldn't happen. You're right that he may have no choice. And yeah, he'd probably affect many people no matter what.

I'm just saying I'd rather he live. He could accomplish more. And I don't understand why so many people seem to think bats/bruce dying is a good, inspirational ending.

It's okay but generic and I think bruce living to inspire is more creative and better for gotham.

I don't think any of them are generic. The super hero genre so far has been mainly where the good guy just goes on protecting forever. The Dark Knight Returns it already happened where Batman dies Bruce does not, it's not new and not necessarily better for Gotham.

I think all of the possibilities are very interesting and different.

 

[Rapunzel]

Because there's no greater love than when a man lay down his life for his brother's.

No, there's no greater love than when a man LIVES his live in service of his fellow man.

Any joker can die for you (no pun intended). But few can live a life of good deeds and enhance the lives of everyone around them through hard work and dedication.

This separates the dark knight from the white knight.

 

[Carnotaur3]

So true! The symbol has no meaning if disconnected from reality. This is why harvey will be such a lousy symbol. His story isn't located in reality

Good stuff, Repunzel! I like that idea. And of course, Harvey's true nature showed at the end, and Batman will show at the end of this one.

 

[Solidus]

I agree that people can be powerful continuing to live, but just as much if one sacrifices himself.

"You either die a hero or live long enough to be a villain"

I think both are just as "greater loves" so I disagree on that.

 

[Carnotaur3]

No, there's no greater love than when a man LIVES his live in service of his fellow man.

Any joker can die for you (no pun intended). But few can live a life of good deeds and enhance the lives of everyone around them through hard work and dedication.

This separates the dark knight from the white knight.

That's only true when you look at individual lives. But when countless souls are on the line in Gotham over a bomb, there won't be a Gotham to save!

Also, a parent would die saving their child. How can there be a love greater than that?

 

[Reek]

Crazy thought.... But we have gotten the final scene of BB and TDK in the trailers...

The whole 'batman fakes his death' thing. And the FULL CIRCLE thing... the last scene could be Gordon and Batman... after batmans supposed death, what if the flare scene ended up being the end scene?