The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 148

[shauner111]

Yeah, I've seen you say that in other threads, but still confused why you're fine with the yellow belt? Does a bat wear any kind of belt?

Because in the shadows the yellow belt is not seen. Bale's was more like a subtle gold. The belt in general never bothered me because unless you're face to face with the Batman and staring at his belt you're not going to see it. Unlike a bright yellow symbol on his chest plus a super bright yellow belt that sticks out like a sore thumb. Great for the movies but im just talking about a Batman that could exist for real.

I appreciated the all black.

 

[Travesty]

At least in TDK and TDKR they tried to stay away from this Batman:

It's just too bad he ended up looking like this.

LOL, why does Batman's hand look like he's.....ummmmmm, never mind.

 

[shauner111]

Hahahaha

 

[BatLobster]

That's fine....I know a lot of people love it....if you have ever read my posts, you will know that I never attack anyone for their opinions....and if you notice, I say that this is my opinion. I personally don't like it and I have explained in several posts in the past why I feel this way.

It's fine. All good. Like I said, I just think there's a difference between disliking a movie and saying it's one of the worst movies ever. One expresses an opinion, the other presents something as more of an objective assessment of something's merit.

For instance, a person may like The Room more than The Dark Knight Rises because they find it hilarious and more entertaining, albeit unintentionally (o hai weird analogy!). And that would be a perfectly acceptable opinion to have. But to claim that The Room is a better made film than The Dark Knight Rises? I just don't think there's much of a substantial way to support that claim. Anyone bold enough to make such a claim would be inherently opening themselves up to a whole slew of scrutiny and objection. That's all I was saying.

Oh and...I like the TDK/R suit more. Nothing against the Begins suit, it's fantastic. I just prefer sleek to 'teh puffy'.

But PP is right, and I was saying the same thing in the Batman 89 thread: what matters more than the suits themselves is how they were shot. And that varies throughout all the Batman films.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Well, TDKR is unintentionally funny at times, too. There was a whole thread about it, which I believe is a first for a superhero film in the Hype. But yeah, there's no way that TDKR could be considered one of the worst movies ever. It was a good movie. It's mostly a disappointment in the context of the trilogy. For me anyway.

I think The Room is insufferable. There's funny bad, and then there's just plain bad. The Room was just bad. It was a chore to watch. I don't understand how some people can think it's so funny? I do find the concept of a film becoming a cult classic due to being so incompetent quite hilarious, but The Room did nothing for me. Now, Showgirls....There's your hilariously bad movie. So over the top....LOL.

 

[BatLobster]

I actually agree with you about The Room. It's great to watch short clips of but to actually sit through the whole thing from beginning to end is pretty brutal. You'd almost have to be playing some sort of drinking game for it to actually be a fun activity.

 

[Travesty]

....you guys have watched The Room sober?

 

[C. Lee]

It's fine. All good. Like I said, I just think there's a difference between disliking a movie and saying it's one of the worst movies ever. One expresses an opinion, the other presents something as more of an objective assessment of something's merit.

For instance, a person may like The Room more than The Dark Knight Rises because they find it hilarious and more entertaining, albeit unintentionally (o hai weird analogy!). And that would be a perfectly acceptable opinion to have. But to claim that The Room is a better made film than The Dark Knight Rises? I just don't think there's much of a substantial way to support that claim. Anyone bold enough to make such a claim would be inherently opening themselves up to a whole slew of scrutiny and objection. That's all I was saying.

From my point of view....TDKR has an excellent director and cast....the cinematography, sets, FX, costumes, range from great to OK....but to me, when you have that much talent, and that much money to spend....and they totally disappoint me with the story (and I don't just mean I kind of disagree with this point or that....there are so many things in the movie that I absolutely hate, I could not believe my eyes when watching it), I saw it as a total waste of my time. I know some of you guys love it....I dare say I most likely love some movies that you guys hate....that's the way of the world when it comes to artistic opinion. It doesn't bother me. But it seems to bother some of you guys.

Those of you who have actually read things I have said in the past should know...I don't casually say things about movies on here. If I like something I will say it...if I don't like something, I will say that too...but I don't dwell on it and I don't run it into the ground. Six months to a year ago I wrote my feelings on TDKR on here....some discussed it with me, some attacked me....but I didn't continually pop in and diss the movie. I made my post in here last week because I had just finished watching it again to see if any of my feelings had changed. They hadn't. So I posted that in here.....because it is TDKR Discussion thread.....that means good and bad opinions are to be discussed.

 

[shauner111]

That's a fair opinion. THAT i respect. I have no problem with that. Im glad you acknowledged the technical aspects while stating how you hated things about the story. But it was when you said it was one of the worst movies of any genre, that i just couldn't comprehend especially with how superior the directing, cinematography, score, set pieces and acting is when compared to the bulk of Hollywood's action blockbusters or superhero movies.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah C. Lee, I totally respect that, and definitely appreciate the way you put it there. And I do recall your posts about what you hated about TDKR, so it's not like I thought you were just making stuff up or being negative for the sake of it.

Differing opinions can and do co-exist on these boards though. Almost by necessity, because the few remaining people who post in this section are very divided on the movie. So at this point anyone who posting here on some level enjoys the back and forth debate.

....you guys have watched The Room sober?

I have. I do NAHT recommend it.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

I have. I do NAHT recommend it.

Same here. Watched it sober too with a bunch of friends. It was actually really fun. Wouldn't do it again though, haha.

 

[capedetective]

Is it completely due to the death of Heath Ledger that The Joker wasn't included in The Dark Knight Rises or was there just no room for him?

 

[GremlinZilla89]

I think it was due to Ledger. I remember reading something about Nolan wanting to use The Joker in the third one but alas his death prevented that.

 

[Shikamaru]

Regarding which suit I prefer more, that would be the BB suit. However, I dislike both at the end of the day. To me, they are both visual representations of Hollywood's failure to do the batsuit justice on the big screen.

Heck, even from a realistic point of view, the batsuits are still bad. That was one of the thing that drove me nuts in all 3 films. They state over and over again that WE's applied science department is supposed to be 10 years ahead of everyone else, yet Batman wears a suit considered dated by our real world standards.

Is it completely due to the death of Heath Ledger that The Joker wasn't included in The Dark Knight Rises or was there just no room for him?

It was due to Ledger.

 

[Anita18]

From my point of view....TDKR has an excellent director and cast....the cinematography, sets, FX, costumes, range from great to OK....but to me, when you have that much talent, and that much money to spend....and they totally disappoint me with the story (and I don't just mean I kind of disagree with this point or that....there are so many things in the movie that I absolutely hate, I could not believe my eyes when watching it), I saw it as a total waste of my time. I know some of you guys love it....I dare say I most likely love some movies that you guys hate....that's the way of the world when it comes to artistic opinion. It doesn't bother me. But it seems to bother some of you guys.

I know everyone has a different gauge of what constitutes a "bad" movie, but to me, a movie can't be considered "bad" overall if it has great production values. It can have an offensively bad story or script (like I thought SR did), but I can't bear to shoot down the hard work of everyone below the line if the production values are really good.

That's why I consider SR to be a disappointing movie, not a bad one. And hell, the Transformers movies are stupid, but they're not bad. The production values are really great.

But yeah, YMMV with that. I'm a total softie.

 

[DyeLorean]

to me, a movie can't be considered "bad" overall if it has great production values.

Technical aspects don't mean much by themselves if the story, the script, the acting isn't good. Is like a good looking car that doesn't work. Why do you want it for? For showing?

 

[shauner111]

Regarding which suit I prefer more, that would be the BB suit. However, I dislike both at the end of the day. To me, they are both visual representations of Hollywood's failure to do the batsuit justice on the big screen.

Heck, even from a realistic point of view, the batsuits are still bad. That was one of the thing that drove me nuts in all 3 films. They state over and over again that WE's applied science department is supposed to be 10 years ahead of everyone else, yet Batman wears a suit considered dated by our real world standards.



It was due to Ledger.

I dont consider it "Hollywood's failure to do the batsuit justice on the big screen" if that wasn't the goal of the filmmakers. The goal was not to do the comic suit justice, it was to do their own version that would work well in the world they were going to create. Which was meant to be a world that was NOT the comic books leaping straight off the pages. If their goal was to do a great batsuit that really payed homage to what we've all seen from the comics (what i think Snyder is doing) then id say YES they failed. But it's not the case.

 

[Shikamaru]

I dont consider it "Hollywood's failure to do the batsuit justice on the big screen" if that wasn't the goal of the filmmakers. The goal was not to do the comic suit justice, it was to do their own version that would work well in the world they were going to create. Which was meant to be a world that was NOT the comic books leaping straight off the pages. If their goal was to do a great batsuit that really payed homage to what we've all seen from the comics (what i think Snyder is doing) then id say YES they failed. But it's not the case.

That's the problem. I already addressed that in the exact same post you are quoting.

Heck, even from a realistic point of view, the batsuits are still bad. That was one of the thing that drove me nuts in all 3 films. They state over and over again that WE's applied science department is supposed to be 10 years ahead of everyone else, yet Batman wears a suit considered dated by our real world standards.

In today's world, we have bulletproof suits made out of kevlar and fabric-like materials that protect the body from bullets and cuts as much as the bulky armors do. The only difference between the kevlar/fabric and bulky armor? Both offer the same amount of protection, but the kevlar/fabric doesn't weigh down Batman anywhere as much. Yeah it's expensive, but it shouldn't be a problem for Bruce Wayne.

Then there is the camouflage aspect. Studies show the best colors for camouflaging in urban environments are (navy) blue-and-grey, with black-and-grey being in second place. All-black actually makes you more visible in the dark.

If Nolan's whole pitch is "Batman in the real world" or however you want to word it, why is he still wearing a suit that is dated by our real-life standards? Especially if Wayne's Applied Science Department is supposed to be a few years ahead of the rest of the world.

Then you go over to the comic book suit and all of that is there. It is made of the best kevlar/fabric available - still just as durable without weighing the wearer down. It is often portrayed as either black-and-grey or blue-and-grey, which are the mixtures that blend better in the dark than all-black. As a side note, I also think it gives off the "creature of the night" vibe better and makes Batman feel more scary and more larger-than-life. So even in a realistic setting, the comic book suit still makes more sense than both Nolan suits IMO.

 

[BatLobster]

At the end of the day it's still an aesthetic choice. Nolan's repeatedly said that the idea with the films was to create the feel of it being realistic without it actually being realistic.

Also, the TDK/R suit was a mixture of black and grey. And you get the blues in there with the lighting. For my money, that suit shot at night with some blue reflecting off of it is pretty ace.

Spoiler

To my sensibilities, that is exactly how Batman should look on the big screen. Or at the very least, that aesthetic fit into the world that Nolan created. The armor provides a more imposing, tactical look. And also fits into the 'knight' motif.

 

[JackWhite]

I love both suits, but lean more towards TDK/R suit. Loved how they draped the cape over his shoulders more in TDKR:





Shame we couldn't have had at least the same amount of "Batman" screen time as BB. But I digress.

 

[Shikamaru]

At the end of the day it's still an aesthetic choice. Nolan's repeatedly said that the idea with the films was to create the feel of it being realistic without it actually being realistic.

Also, the TDK/R suit was a mixture of black and grey. And you get the blues in there with the lighting. For my money, that suit shot at night with some blue reflecting off of it is pretty ace.

Spoiler

To my sensibilities, that is exactly how Batman should look on the big screen. Or at the very least, that aesthetic fit into the world that Nolan created. The armor provides a more imposing, tactical look. And also fits into the 'knight' motif.

Yeah but when you strip the character away from stuff such as his "world's greatest detective" status in the name of realism only to change the batsuit due to aesthetics even though the original (comic book) batsuit is more realistic, such aesthetic decision becomes really annoying to some people (such as myself).

Plus, the realism varies from part to part in each film. When it comes to the batsuit itself, that part is entirely about being as realistic as possible. That's why Nolan tries to explain as much as possible about how the suit works & how Batman does his things, while trying to connect it to the real world as much as possible (i.e. Batmobile being a rejected US military vehicle). All of that tries to stay as grounded as possible through its real-life explanations but to people that have done their research (like me), it comes off like Nolan didn't do enough research and/or takes us for idiots.

The TDK(R) suit isn't black-and-grey. It is gunmetal black, which makes it look as if it has blue highlights at certain lightings. However, that is not the same as blue-and-grey or black-and-grey. The grey areas in the comic book suit are lighter and distinct enough to be separated from the black/blue areas.

Also, I highly disagree with you on this being how Batman should look on the big screen. In my honest opinion, I think that particular look looks both silly and ugly. I think it makes Batman feel more like Iron Man and less stealthy, less agile, and takes away from the theatrical + the "creature of the night" parts of the character (which in turn would also make him less scary).

 

[shauner111]

That's the problem. I already addressed that in the exact same post you are quoting.



In today's world, we have bulletproof suits made out of kevlar and fabric-like materials that protect the body from bullets and cuts as much as the bulky armors do. The only difference between the kevlar/fabric and bulky armor? Both offer the same amount of protection, but the kevlar/fabric doesn't weigh down Batman anywhere as much. Yeah it's expensive, but it shouldn't be a problem for Bruce Wayne.

Then there is the camouflage aspect. Studies show the best colors for camouflaging in urban environments are (navy) blue-and-grey, with black-and-grey being in second place. All-black actually makes you more visible in the dark.

If Nolan's whole pitch is "Batman in the real world" or however you want to word it, why is he still wearing a suit that is dated by our real-life standards? Especially if Wayne's Applied Science Department is supposed to be a few years ahead of the rest of the world.

Then you go over to the comic book suit and all of that is there. It is made of the best kevlar/fabric available - still just as durable without weighing the wearer down. It is often portrayed as either black-and-grey or blue-and-grey, which are the mixtures that blend better in the dark than all-black. As a side note, I also think it gives off the "creature of the night" vibe better and makes Batman feel more scary and more larger-than-life. So even in a realistic setting, the comic book suit still makes more sense than both Nolan suits IMO.

I still don't see how that's a problem. A filmmaker setting out to do their own version for creative purposes. For their vision. Movies are movies brah.

As for what i highlighted..that just makes no sense at all.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah but when you strip the character away from stuff such as his "world's greatest detective" status in the name of realism only to change the batsuit due to aesthetics even though the original (comic book) batsuit is more realistic, such aesthetic decision becomes really annoying to some people (such as myself).

Plus, the realism varies from part to part in each film. When it comes to the batsuit itself, that part is entirely about being as realistic as possible. That's why Nolan tries to explain as much as possible about how the suit works & how Batman does his things, while trying to connect it to the real world as much as possible (i.e. Batmobile being a rejected US military vehicle). All of that tries to stay as grounded as possible through its real-life explanations but to people that have done their research (like me), it comes off like Nolan didn't do enough research and/or takes us for idiots.

I still don't really see that as simply in the name of "realism". It's sort of a recurring issue where people think Nolan had some sort of neurotic and arbitrary obsession with realism when it's really not the case.

He wanted to tell a Batman story in a realistic fashion. That doesn't mean being a slave to real life facts and it also doesn't mean taking the audience for stupid, it's just about creating an atmosphere of verisimilitude. Something that feels more like a "regular" action movie, where you can buy into things a little bit more. And most action movies aren't actually realistic or factual when you break them down. It's just that no Batman movie had been approached that way before. Nolan himself has made this distinction a bunch of times, most recently in The Fire Rises doc. As he said himself, the fact that it's Gotham and not a real city places it in an unreality right from the start. I'd say in addition to the suit being an aesthetic choice, it was also simply plot reasons that dictated the move to the armor plated suit in TDK/R. It allowed for some vulnerability which led to higher stakes- and him being shot and stabbed ended up being big moments in the two sequels.

I think another thing is simply that...movie Batman had sort of established his own visual identity separate from comic book/cartoon Batman due to the other films. The armored look is what audiences had grown accustomed to. It's what I grew up on, and I liked it. I think Nolan wanted to follow in that tradition but also evolve it a bit.

Personally, I don't think a live action Batman suit is ever going to look inherently 'scary'. It's all about how he's lit and the use of shadows. When you expose it in the light, it's always going to look like a guy wearing a bat costume. I'm curious to see what this "game-changing" Batfleck suit is going to be...maybe it's the one that fans have been craving since they saw Dead End.

But of course, it's all personal taste. Give me any of the live-action Bat-suits over the Dead End one any day of the week.

 

[Marvolo]

I still don't see how that's a problem. A filmmaker setting out to do their own version for creative purposes. For their vision. Movies are movies brah.

As for what i highlighted..that just makes no sense at all.

The thing about solid black making you more visible is actually true. Has to do with the wavelengths our eyes pick up in low light, and the fact that outdoor environments are very rarely pitch black, and I mean can't see your hand an inch in front of your face after 30 minutes in the dark. In anything but pitch black , black clothing will stand out in the environment. Dark blue is actually more efficient at night if you want to conceal yourself. It blends better with the environment.

 

[Matt.S99]

Just rewatched TDKR. I actually enjoyed it much more this time around. Maybe its not TDK, but it's a good, fun movie.