The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - Part 152

[Tacit Ronin]

Yap.

And i think it makes people feel smart. They point out mistakes and come up with new little ideas for that story, and it probably makes them feel like they could´ve done a better job than Nolan.

"What about this idea? And this one? Isn´t this cool? This ending would have been soooooo much better"

I disagree. I doubt most people get a joy in fantasizing about writing a better script than a mediocre film like Rises. What's to feel proud about that? They would much rather fantasize about emulating great scripts like Fargo.

Congratulations. Now go write a script better than Rises. You will fail and i will laugh. Happy new year.

What an amicable and courteous attitude in this joyous day. No hint of condescension or anything.

 

[shauner111]

Some people do, and they write fan-fiction, even in the form of scripts. Mediocre film? Your opinion.

 

[Ryan]

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[Killer]

I disagree. I doubt most people get a joy in fantasizing about writing a better script than a mediocre film like Rises. What's to feel proud about that? They would much rather fantasize about emulating great scripts like Fargo.



What an amicable and courteous attitude in this joyous day. No hint of condescension or anything.

"They" who, exactly? I see plenty of people fantasizing about writing Batman films. And i see plenty of people talking about how this movie could have been better. And i´m willing to bet WAAAY more people fantasize about writing a Batman film than "Fargo", wich is actually a pretty great movie.

Btw, why do you talk like if your personal opinion reflected the general consensus about this movie?

 

[The Joker]

Spoiler

I swear that bones joke is the joke that keeps on giving.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

"They" who, exactly?

Good question. They would refer to the same "they" in your post.

I see plenty of people fantasizing about writing Batman films. and i see plenty of people talking about how this movie could have been better.

Clearly if they think it sucks they have a right to believe they can make it better. It is a common phenomenon.

And i´m willing to bet WAAAY more people fantasize about writing a Batman film than "Fargo", wich is actually a pretty great movie.

As I recall, you used the logical fallacy that people who (dare) criticize Nolan's Batman movies shouldn't because they would never produce movies as good. That may be so. But so what? You shouldn't have to be an expert at an area of art to criticize it.

Don't tell me you only criticize something you know you have absolutely mastered or something (laughs). I am sure you have made harsh reproaches about stuff you wouldn't do half as well as those you whined about too. That makes you the same wallflower as the people you are being condescending to.

 

[Killer]

Good question. They would refer to the same "they" in your post.



Clearly if they think it sucks they have a right to believe they can make it better. It is a common phenomenon.



As I recall, you used the logical fallacy that people who (dare) criticize Nolan's Batman movies shouldn't because they would never produce movies as good. That may be so. But so what? You shouldn't have to be an expert at an area of art to criticize it.

Don't tell me you only criticize something you know you have absolutely mastered or something (laughs). I am sure you have made harsh reproaches about stuff you wouldn't do half as well as those you whined about too. That makes you the same wallflower as the people you are being condescending to.

Nope. I didn´t say they shouldn´t criticize him unless they´re able to do something better. I pointed out that it seems that it makes them feel smart and special. I also pointed out how easy it is to modify a story in comparision to creating one from scratch.

And yes, they have the right to believe they can make it better. They just can´t.

 

[doobie]

When an author writes a book they often get friends to read it for constructive criticism. Sometimes an editor or a reader outside of the work can see kinks and confusing parts that the artist themselves is too close to see. It doesn't mean they could be the artist, just that they can see it with fresh eyes. Of course its easier to modify than to create from scratch, that's why authors can be paid more than editors.

I believe I could never write a movie like the Nolan Bat films, but that won't stop me thinking about how "kinks" in them could have been worked out better - not out of smugness, more like scratching an itch and working a puzzle out.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Nope. I didn´t say they shouldn´t criticize him unless they´re able to do something better. I pointed out that it seems that it makes them feel smart and special. I also pointed out how easy it is to modify a story in comparision to creating one from scratch.

How do you know they do it to make them feel smart and special? Can't it be because they are passionate fans and their proposed alternatives are a consequence of their frustrations with the film?

And yes, they have the right to believe they can make it better. They just can´t.

So what? That doesn't lessen the worth of their criticism. I can go to a restaurant and complain about the food being bad and I would probably make that same dish even worse than the chef did. That does not negate the criticism of the food. Again, you don't have to be an expert at any field of art or craft to have legitimate gripes against it.

 

[Killer]

How do you know they do it to make them feel smart and special? Can't it be because they are passionate fans and their proposed alternatives are a consequence of their frustrations with the film?


.

I didn´t say i knew. I said "it seems".

So what? That doesn't lessen the worth of their criticism. I can go to a restaurant and complain about the food being bad and I would probably make that same dish even worse than the chef did. That does not negate the criticism of the food. Again, you don't have to be an expert at any field of art or craft to have legitimate gripes against it.

I didn´t say it lessen the worth of their criticism. It´s difficult to lessen the worth of something that´s worthless. It´s like empty an empty bottle of water.

 

[doobie]

Nolan is probably the greatest current filmmaker in the world - obviously none of us forum posters are going to be on his level of creativity. That's not going to stop me having fun speculating on how things could have been different - like how he could have worked in a scene of Blake in costume for example. Different things go through different drafts - Nolan has changed his own ways of doing things and his own ideas throughout the making of the films. It's not a case of "Nolan's way or another way". Obviously there are alternative ways of showing Batman's first fight with Bane or first team up with Robin because the comics did it differently. The Nolan of 2005 did things differently to the Nolan of now. Nolan has made more fantasy/exotic feeling films and more gritty feeling films. We can prefer different sides of Nolans' style or different sides of Batman filmamking.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I didn´t say i knew. I said "it seems".

How does it "seem"?

I didn´t say it lessen the worth of their criticism. It´s difficult to lessen the worth of something that´s worthless. It´s like empty an empty bottle of water.

And yet the Chef and the restaurant, no matter how many quotes of recommendations they have, will prostate themselves before the customer. Seems like a lot of worth to me.

You mean TDKR? Well, if it comforts you to think that, then by all means.

But it obviously has worth if it riles you up so much on Christmas day.

 

[Killer]

How does it "seem"?



And yet the Chef and the restaurant, no matter how many quotes of recommendations they have, will prostate themselves before the customer. Seems like a lot of worth to me.

You mean TDKR? Well, if it comforts you to think that, then by all means.

But it obviously has worth if it riles you up so much on Christmas day.

Too bad we aren´t talking about restaurants. Nolan isn´t gonna prostate himself before you. He did what he wanted to do, a lot of people were against it, and he still did it. That´s how much your ideas are worth.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Too bad we aren´t talking about restaurants. Nolan isn´t gonna prostate himself before you. He did what he wanted to do, a lot of people were against it, and he still did it. That´s how much your ideas are worth.

Good for him. But if it doesn't work for people, they are free to criticize him. And their criticisms are as full of worth as those who apologize for the film.

 

[Killer]

Good for him. But if it doesn't work for people, they are free to criticize him. And their criticisms are as full of worth as those who apologize for the film.

Not saying they aren´t free. You keep putting words in my mouth. I´m saying it doesn´t make a god damn difference to him. He is going to do what he is going to do. Doesn´t matter if you like it or not. And your hopes for what the movie could have been aren´t gonna change what the movie actually is. The 1B dollars were already made and the critical acclaim was already received. There´s nothing left to change.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

. I´m saying it doesn´t make a god damn difference to him.

I never said it did. You said initially that the criticisms don't matter because we can't make a film. But I contested that. Implying that it is ridiculous. You don't have to be any good at an area of art to have valid criticisms of it.

He is going to do what he is going to do. Doesn´t matter if you like it or not.

Nobody said he wouldn't.

And your hopes for what the movie could have been aren´t gonna change what the movie actually is.

I have settled down with the movie's mediocrity.

The 1B dollars were already made

Appeal to popularity logical fallacy. Why don't we look at Transformers? I guess they are good films too.

the critical acclaim was already received

That is a simplistic statement. Even most of the glowing reviews noted its faults even if their impact on the film differed from critic to critic.

There´s nothing left to change.

That goes for the criticisms too. Being thirty years old doesn't prevent Return of the Jedi from still being criticized. And TDKR will still be criticized in 2042 too.

 

[Two-Face]

 

[georgec]

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Not in this side of the pond. Not yet.

 

[Travesty]

Oh damn, I wish you guys would've given me the heads up on my new Christmas song by The Killers. But anyways, here's a song to bring in the New Year.

[YT]ml2Cd3MgYwY[/YT]

 

[BatLobster]

I think the term 'apologist' gets thrown around a little too liberally in these discussions.

For instance Tacit Ronin, from what I've gathered in the Interstellar thread you were a fan of that film (as am I). But you have to admit, it got a polarizing reaction much like TDKR, and in fact was even more polarizing in terms of the critics' reaction. If you like Interstellar and are willing to defend it from its detractors, does that mean you're an Interstellar "apologist"? Or are you just a fan of the movie?

I dunno, I think the word just loses its meaning when there really isn't a clear majority consensus. It's no different than just labeling someone a "hater".

I mean no offense Tacit Ronin (fyi I nominated you for best Misc Movies poster in the 2014 SHH! Awards), just something that's always kind of bugged me.

Happy New Year all!

Edit: LOL Trav.

 

[Two-Face]

Not in this side of the pond. Not yet.

I'm already in 2015.....

Spoiler

Not for another 5 hours

 

[Tacit Ronin]

For instance Tacit Ronin, from what I've gathered in the Interstellar thread you were a fan of that film (as am I). But you have to admit, it got a polarizing reaction much like TDKR, and in fact was even more polarizing in terms of the critics' reaction. If you like Interstellar and are willing to defend it from its detractors, does that mean you're an Interstellar "apologist"? Or are you just a fan of the movie?

I do like Interstellar yes. But I haven't yet condemned anybody who has problems with it worthless because they haven't made a film.

As for me being an Interstellar apologist? Why the heck not? I really like the film and I will defend it. And those that don't will attack it. But I will debate those criticisms, not dismiss them because I simply like the film.

I mean no offense Tacit Ronin (fyi I nominated you for best Misc Movies poster in the 2014 SHH! Awards)

Thanks man.

 

[shauner111]

Oh damn, I wish you guys would've given me the heads up on my new Christmas song by The Killers. But anyways, here's a song to bring in the New Year.

[YT]ml2Cd3MgYwY[/YT]

I saw Birdman for the second time last night and i noticed/was reminded that Keaton's character says "i could feel it in my bones". Remember when you nutjobs (or was it just Milost) were arguing that "it's not a real phrase, i've never heard that used before"?

 

[Travesty]

I never once argued that it wasn't a real phrase.