The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - Part 152

[JackWhite]

It's bloody amazing how we can still go back and forth on this film. Discussing TDKR a few years ago was a lot less fun and more ugly though. Funny how the 8 year gap is the main point of contention in these debates.

 

[The Batman]

When BatLobster talks about people trolling/mocking the Nolan films, I can only assume he's talking about the B V S forum.

 

[Travesty]

I would assume, and he's clearly not talking about me.

 

[The Batman]

^ I feel like with you, its all in good fun. But then again, you're one of the few B V S forum regulars that I actually like, so I might be biased.

 

[Travesty]

I don't post that much in there, cause there's not that much to talk about. And I only stick to Batman stuff, for the most part.

 

[BatLobster]

When BatLobster talks about people trolling/mocking the Nolan films, I can only assume he's talking about the B V S forum.

Correct. And no I'm not talking about Travesty. Travesty may like to troll, but at least he's our troll.

No, no, the people I refer to I think are a new breed, mostly people I never saw posting too frequently, if at all on the Bat-forums before BvS. Bit of a younger crowd if I had to speculate.

 

[The Joker]

Sounds like the traditional fanboy cycle. Something new comes along, and suddenly the previous versions are crap.

 

[The Shape]

Sounds like the traditional fanboy cycle. Something new comes along, and suddenly the previous versions are crap.

That's typically limited to the more extreme, less rational fanboys...the kind who have biases toward or against certain studios, franchises, or filmmakers.

I take comfort in knowing there are still plenty of posters like you and I and other regulars of this thread who don't think that way.

 

[BatLobster]

Sounds like the traditional fanboy cycle. Something new comes along, and suddenly the previous versions are crap.

Oh it absolutely is, but I feel they're going extra harsh on it just because it does have that GOAT reputation with many. I honestly don't even mind that much anymore, fanboys gonna be fanboys. It just kinda makes me feel old and uncool a little before I was ready to even admit that to myself, which is unfortunate. Like, I've seen some posters there talk about how they've never experienced hype for a movie like this and never followed a movie's production so closely. I just think about the build-up to TDK and I'm biting my tongue so I don't launch into a "back in my day..." rant.

 

[Shikamaru]

^ I think you're exaggerating the extent to which opinions have changed.

Fanboys will be fanboys, but I don't think the Nolan films overall get more bad rep than when they came out. I still see most people list BB as the best origin film and TDK as the crown jewel of the genre. Rises is more divided, but that's been the case from the beginning. There's nothing to indicate that much has changed.

Now some people might say "We're finally getting the true Batman!", but I don't see how that's an indication that opinions on the Nolan films changed. Nailing a character and nailing the overall essence of the character and its mythos are mutually exclusive. Nolan's Batman may have been lacking a bit in certain aspects people wanted to see, but that doesn't change the fact his films that overall nailed what the idea of Batman was all about.

Even if BvS totally nails the scope of Batman's abilities, I'll be hesitant to call it the "true Batman" if the essence of the character is lacking. The essence being why he does what he does, what he represents, hys dynamic with his villains, why he doesn't use guns or kill, etc. All those being things that Nolan absolutely nailed.

Heck if we're really getting Miller's right wing extremist, I can't wait to see the fanboys try to argue that's the "best" version solely based on visuals and aesthetics . I'll be there to deliver e-slaps .

 

[BatLobster]

With all due respect Shika, I don't know how much time you've spent in the BvS forum but it can be pretty extreme in there. I don't think I'm exaggerating. I also don't necessarily think it's entirely a case of fans "turning" on it though.

My theory is a lot of it is just younger fans, who don't have quite the same emotional attachment to the last three films than some of us may. They are coming into their own as fans in an era where Nolan's "realism" angle on the mythos kind of gets a bad stigma because we're living in the post-Marvel era and people want it all. They may have more of an attachment to the Batman of the Arkham games than any other media, and that's essentially the Batman they want to see, anything else isn't cutting it and lame. Coupled with this I think are a fairly sizable portion of the fanbase who were never pleased with the more grounded approach and merely 'tolerated' it because the movies were quality. However I think after Rises, a lot of these on the fence fans kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater.

So when you couple this with a lot of Bat-fans around my age (approaching 30-ish), for which TDKT was THE defining pop culture "thing" of our 20s, reaching a point in life where it's just not even worth the trouble to argue with these types of people and stay out of it, and you have the ingredients for groupthink kind of mentality to thrive. I know you're a bit younger than me Shika, but you've always seemed mature beyond your years.

Anyhow, that's my crackpot psychological analysis of the state of fandom. But I don't think I'm entirely wrong.

 

[The Shape]

I don't think you're entirely wrong, but I do think you're exaggerating a bit. I spend a lot of time over there, as well, reading more than I post. I haven't noticed any kind of sizeable increase in Nolan/TDKT-bashing.

 

[Travesty]

"....smoke weed every day!"

 

[BatLobster]

I don't think you're entirely wrong, but I do think you're exaggerating a bit. I spend a lot of time over there, as well, reading more than I post. I haven't noticed any kind of sizeable increase in Nolan/TDKT-bashing.

Well, I haven't noticed a sizable increase either but I think it's been at a relatively high level for a while now, and in general it's just very nutty in there (as it is with anything that's highly anticipated). Not saying that everyone's doing it, but a small group are and most seem to happily go along with it without much pushback.

Anyhow, what I'm saying is even if most people in there don't hate TDKT, I don't get the impression that too many of them love it either or would call it "their" Batman. Which is perfectly fine and expected really, just an observation.

 

[Shikamaru]

I think we're on the same page here by the fact you sourced the BvS forums as your primary example.

With all due respect to anyone here who frequently posts there, the BvS forums are practically universally mocked anywhere you go on the Hype, from the Marvel forums to even the DC television sections. Almost nobody posts there but the fanboys, not because of the opinions people hold but because of how fascistic they come off in response to those who disagree with them. It's a mixture of MOS fanboys, Nolan haters and extreme Batman fanboys. A minority to a group of nerds, who are a minority in the total population in the first place. That's kinda my point, and why I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

I'm an early 20's guy that hears lots of nerdy things being talked about on a constant basis wherever I go, especially on campuses. I'm already seeing the "GA" go crazy over the Spider-Man announcement in real life. I guess this generation is a bit more nerdier than the previous ones, but the Nolan films are almost never talked about. Now to be fair, neither are the current DC films, or even the Fox films. Marvel seems to have mastered the art of getting people excited and talking while there's nothing out, whereas everything else seems to continue the pattern of trending "in the moment" when it comes to GA hype. The Arkham games are almost always brought up when you're around any sort of gamer, and once in a while you hear a comment every now and then regarding Affleck's take.

So in a way, the Nolan films are definitely an afterthought at this stage, and people seem to be ready to see the "Goddamn Batman" for lack of better words. But if anything, it seems more like a natural progression. Everything builds on top of something else, and the current batch of Marvel/DC films have clearly been built on the TDK trilogy. The train started running that summer in '08 with TDK and Iron Man, the latter having been influenced by Begins. As the years pass, I don't think people will forget that. It wasn't just a case of solely box office influence, it was genuine quality inspiring genuine quality much like Donner's Superman did.

I guess that's my final point. The Nolan films can go either the Burton way or the Donner way, and I think it's much more likely they'll go the Donner way. They may be viewed differently, maybe there'll be totally different reasons to why they're liked, but there will still be an element of sacredness and of "I can see why this had the impact it did" that Burton's franchise had a tougher time carrying forward, imo.

I also appreciate the compliment.

 

[JackWhite]

It's a whole other ballpark over there in the BVS forum. The last time I checked the energy was more anti Nolan Batman than just being legitimately excited for a new Batman movie. But I don't know, that might have changed a bit?

 

[JackWhite]

I think we're on the same page here by the fact you sourced the BvS forums as your primary example.

With all due respect to anyone here who frequently posts there, the BvS forums are practically universally mocked anywhere you go on the Hype, from the Marvel forums to even the DC television sections. Almost nobody posts there but the fanboys, not because of the opinions people hold but because of how fascistic they come off in response to those who disagree with them. It's a mixture of MOS fanboys, Nolan haters and extreme Batman fanboys. A minority to a group of nerds, who are a minority in the total population in the first place. That's kinda my point, and why I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

I'm an early 20's guy that hears lots of nerdy things being talked about on a constant basis wherever I go, especially on campuses. I'm already seeing the "GA" go crazy over the Spider-Man announcement in real life. I guess this generation is a bit more nerdier than the previous ones, but the Nolan films are almost never talked about. Now to be fair, neither are the current DC films, or even the Fox films. Marvel seems to have mastered the art of getting people excited and talking while there's nothing out, whereas everything else seems to continue the pattern of trending "in the moment" when it comes to GA hype. The Arkham games are almost always brought up when you're around any sort of gamer, and once in a while you hear a comment every now and then regarding Affleck's take.

So in a way, the Nolan films are definitely an afterthought at this stage, and people seem to be ready to see the "Goddamn Batman" for lack of better words. But if anything, it seems more like a natural progression. Everything builds on top of something else, and the current batch of Marvel/DC films have clearly been built on the TDK trilogy. The train started running that summer in '08 with TDK and Iron Man, the latter having been influenced by Begins. As the years pass, I don't think people will forget that. It wasn't just a case of solely box office influence, it was genuine quality inspiring genuine quality much like Donner's Superman did.

I guess that's my final point. The Nolan films can go either the Burton way or the Donner way, and I think it's much more likely they'll go the Donner way. They may be viewed differently, maybe there'll be totally different reasons to why they're liked, but there will still be an element of sacredness and of "I can see why this had the impact it did" that Burton's franchise had a tougher time carrying forward, imo.

I also appreciate the compliment.

Very well said, brother.

 

[Shikamaru]

Also, I've always said the main reason why fans were so upset with things like the lack of a less grounded Batman was largely because of how much Nolan got right with everything else. Outside of the science, Burton's take wasn't exactly more heightened when it came to the feats, and I'd argue they were even more radical in certain thematic parts. TDK was ironically the film Batman did the most detective work in, yet that was where people first brought up that complaint so often.

The more you nail certain aspects of the character, the more clear the lacking parts become. I think Nolan ultimately nailed far more parts than the parts he did not, and those few parts become more noticeable.

It's like almost completing a beautiful puzzle but you lost the 2 final pieces. I think when a lot of people "bash" the Nolan films, they're bashing it from that perspective as opposed to, for example, the MOS/TASM perspective. That's part of why I think the Nolan films will age better than some of the other franchises.

 

[JackWhite]

Oddly enough, I remember right after TDK came out, in a lot of positive reviews for the film, fans mentioned how much of a detective Batman was in the film. I remember the spill.com review as saying Batman was busting his ass off to actually find the Joker.

I think with how much less screen time Batman got in TDKR; that's when people jumped back on the "Nolan's Batman didn't do enough detective work" bandwagon.

But for sure, Shika, the more you get right, the more it sticks out when you make a mistake. Which is some people's take on TDKR anyway.

 

[Shikamaru]

It's also not like Nolan deliberately went against the detective side. It just wasn't emphasized enough. It's not so much that he made it clear where his detective skills stand, it's that he left people in the dark about it. The mystery of "what could be" is where a lot of the frustration comes from IMO, at least for me.

Which isn't exactly the equivalent to, say, Superman snapping necks or Spider-Man not being a wisecracker.

 

[JackWhite]

A lot of the detective moments were kind of done in a fleeting way too. Remember in BB, where Bruce is dressed like a homeless man following Rachel, the photos of Gordon he has on the floor in Wayne Manor before he discovers the cave, or even when he eaves drops on Flask and Falcone's conversation involving the hit on Rachel? It just kind of...happens, then onto the next scene. I didn't have a problem with the way it was handled in that regard. I would have loved more of that stuff in TDKR, but then again, Rises isn't really about how great of a crime fighter Bruce Wayne is as Batman.

But I don't know, I think a lot of us just expected a more concentrated effort at a "Worlds Greatest Detective" Batman for the third film, with how TDK ended. But honestly, for three films, I believe Nolan gave us a little bit of Batman that we know and love.

BB = The creature of the night.
TDK = The more detective/crime fighter aspect.
TDKR = The withered and wry TDKReturns Batman; coming out of retirement for one last hurrah.

 

[BatLobster]

Wow Shika, awesome post. You summed up my thoughts perfectly.

That's exactly it, this is a nerdier generation, and TDKT definitely played a big role in building up the geek culture that we're currently living in. That's why I think it deserves a little more respect than it tends to currently get, but you're absolutely on the money with the Donner/Burton comparison and I'm hoping it goes the Donner route myself. But great post man.

 

[The Shape]

I don't even think that it's a nerdier generation we're seeing right now. Rather, superhero films and comic book properties have become a seemingly permanent, widely accepted staple of the pop culture spectrum. Basically, superhero content has gone completely "mainstream". It's no longer rare or "uncool" for people to follow and anticipate this stuff heavily, because it's everywhere. Dozens of superhero films have been released in the past several years, with even more in production or scheduled for release within the next decade. 5 comic book-based TV shows on air right now, with several more on the way. A mammoth-level Batman video game series that rivals some of the more prolific video game series in popularity and financial success. Superhero properties now receive constant mainstream coverage from entertainment news outlets like Entertainment Weekly and others.

In turn, all of this focus, attention, and mainstream success has ushered in a whole new demographic of fans. Some of these fans really are just along the ride of the various film series and hotly anticipate those releases, while others have begun delving into the comic books themselves and have found themselves becoming more hardcore fans, I'm sure.

My point is that this mainstream acceptance has served to remove the "nerdy" stigma from comic book media. It's no longer a bunch of teens sitting in their room reading Thor comic books and waves of parents taking their children to see Spider-man movies. It's children, teenagers, and adults alike enjoying and embracing all of this media in a multitude of ways, with the superhero film genre essentially having become the most popular film genre of today. At this point, following or discussing your favorite superhero property is not much different than following your favorite NFL team or popular music artist.

 

[BatLobster]

Well yes, absolutely. I agree with everything you just said Shape. The word "nerd" has kind of all lost all meaning in terms of pop culture because just about everyone likes things that were once deemed "nerdy". I mean it's an era where zombies are in millions of peoples' homes every Sunday, where the highest grossing film of the year is based on an obscure comic featuring a talking raccoon. That says it all.

I think Shika and I were just using the word in its more meaning, to refer to the fact that "nerd things" have so much exposure in the mainstream now, thus there's a much wider audience. Of course, there are always different levels of nerdiness and how far you take your interests/obsessions.

I just have to imagine that kids who were like 8-12 when the first Iron Man came out and have grown up in this new environment must have a very different perspective and a different set of expectations than people my age. Again, which is normal, as my generation had different expectations than the previous one and so on.

It's just kind of fascinating to observe the cycle, because when you're IN that 18-25 demographic and everything is being marketed towards you, you almost get a bit of a sense of entitlement and feel like your interests and tastes are what's most relevant as you're showered with things that only reflect and reinforce that. And in a sense, you're right, because your entertainment dollar is the one that's the most sought after. But the cycle always repeats.

Obviously, people like us who love this stuff will likely continue loving this stuff for a long time to come, and we can change with the times. There just comes a point where you don't really get to decide what's cool anymore. It happens with music, and it happens with movies too. That's what I'm really getting at here.

 

[The Shape]

Math nerds are still quite prevalent, though. Losers.