The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - Part 153

[Brother Jack]

The idea that the trilogy is all grimdark and humorless just is not true. It was a dark story but there was levity to it as there needed to be. Nolan should not be blamed for the charcoal gloominess of DC's current cinematic universe. It was people misunderstanding the films and why they were successful.

 

[Victarion]

I'd argue that we really have nothing to say that the direction of the DCCU is going to fall within either of those realms (dark, grimdark).

 

[Brother Jack]

I'd argue that we really have nothing to say that the direction of the DCCU is going to fall within either of those realms (dark, grimdark).

Marketing for Dawn of Justice and to a lesser extent Suicide Squad tells me different.

 

[BatLobster]

Btw Kane, those gifs are glorious. I'd go out on a limb and say that image of Joker hanging out the Cop car window is something of an iconic image, at least in CBMs.

It's definitely one of the most iconic images in CBMs. I'd go a step further and say it's probably one of the most iconic movie images of the past ten years.

 

[shauner111]

Marketing for Dawn of Justice and to a lesser extent Suicide Squad tells me different.

Im sure Suicide Squad will have humor with Harley and Joker there.

 

[Victarion]

We're still going to see the heroes and villains following the strict good vs evil heroic narrative. The villains may actually pose a threat and, well, act like villains (something I liked about Gen Zod in MoS)...and the heroes will more likely than not have a clash of personality and still end up doing what's expected of them. Likewise the villains forced into a more gray area will still end up doing what we'd expect from a team of heroes. There's nothing in there that one could accuse of being dark. At the end of the day, it will more likely than not be a sanitized CU that avoids the human logic in each film's context and telling a story that's true to the context's implications. Neither is it likely that the DCCU will run with the theme of the heroes not being who we would like to believe that they are. Such a CU is, by no means, "dark" or "grimdark."

That isn't to say that I'm deriding the DCCU. I loved MoS and I want it to succeed. I just can't find the basis for claims that the DCCU is shaping up to have any kind of "dark" or "grimdark" tones.

 

[Kane52630]

http://batman-news.com/2015/05/13/gifs-christopher-nolans-dark-knight-trilogy/

 

[BlueLightning]

Outstanding!

 

[The Shape]

Marketing for Dawn of Justice and to a lesser extent Suicide Squad tells me different.

You'd be hard-pressed to find humor or levity in the first teaser trailers for superhero movies or blockbusters like these. I don't think there were any jokes in the first teasers for Batman Begins, TDK, TDKR, Avengers: AOU, or even the first trailer for Star Wars TFA.

The purpose of marketing for films like these that are a year away from release (or longer) is to establish the conflict/stakes, an overall tone people can expect from the film itself, or just to tease certain images or moments -- not to display moments of comic relief. Typically, the later trailers and TV spots will highlight a few moments of levity from these films. This is what happened with the marketing for all of the films I mentioned above, along with Man of Steel.

 

[shauner111]

And sometimes every trailer is serious and then we're sitting in the theater, and the jokes start flying. Marketing isn't necessarily the perfect representation of the final product.

 

[BatLobster]

Those entire movie gifs make me feel like I'm on speed.

But even so, dat cinematography.

 

[Brother Jack]

The purpose of marketing for films like these that are a year away from release (or longer) is to establish the conflict/stakes, an overall tone people can expect from the film itself, or just to tease certain images or moments -- not to display moments of comic relief. Typically, the later trailers and TV spots will highlight a few moments of levity from these films. This is what happened with the marketing for all of the films I mentioned above, along with Man of Steel.

This is what I was getting at. I understand that there are usually no moments of explicit humor in teasers and even that many times trailers simply are not accurate to the final product. But the tone is what's key here and I don't see much in the way of variety on that front. I'm thinking of the BVS teaser, which posited some fascinating story ideas but had the kind of dingy aesthetic that I did not like in Snyder's Watchmen, and things like the gray, rainy Superman picture that tell me this is ebbing far more into dark territory. I'm not saying there cannot be darkness in a (good) Superman story but there needs to be balance. I wouldn't call Man of Steel very dark so much as anemic and a little too serious for its own good. And again, I thought there were some great ideas in that film. It's the execution that fell flat.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

You'd be hard-pressed to find humor or levity in the first teaser trailers for superhero movies or blockbusters like these.

I'd be hard pressed to find any humor in a Zack Snyder film. Man of Steel is completely devoid of it, and I see no reason why BvS won't be the same. There was that one instance where the Latina was saying something about Superman's hotness or something. If that was supposed to be a joke, it landed on the floating rocks formerly known as Krypton, not Kansas.

The new writer may slip in a few bits of humor in the film, but good humor is a two way street, and I am not confident about Snyder's ability to execute them.

 

[Keehar]

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=499017

Vote for your Bat movie, Bat fans.

 

[The Shape]

I'd be hard pressed to find any humor in a Zack Snyder film. Man of Steel is completely devoid of it, and I see no reason why BvS won't be the same. There was that one instance where the Latina was saying something about Superman's hotness or something. If that was supposed to be a joke, it landed on the floating rocks formerly known as Krypton, not Kansas.

There's a difference between outright humor (with characters cracking jokes and delivering one-liners) and comic relief (some witty dialogue) or simple moments of levity. All blockbusters, even the most dreary ones like MOS, include these moments of levity, albeit not always "laugh out loud" humor. You point to one moment in MOS that was obviously intended to be humorous, but I can think of several more off the top of my head.

I, for one, don't see the need for a film like BvS to be laced with overt comedy. I certainly don't want it to mimic the comedy/humor of Avengers: AOU, which had our heroes constantly cracking jokes in the most dire situations. It felt like every other moment of that final battle (in which Earth's survival was at stake and people would have seemingly been dying or near death) included some kind of humorous moment or one-liner.

The new writer may slip in a few bits of humor in the film, but good humor is a two way street, and I am not confident about Snyder's ability to execute them.

I see no reason to suggest that Snyder would be unable to include effectively witty dialogue in a film, if it came from a well written script. David Goyer (sole screenwriter of MOS) is not the best at lacing his films with great dialogue, and especially not good witty dialogue. As for Terrio, I can only point to Argo, which was a pretty funny movie considering how high the stakes and drama were.

I also think the talented cast of BvS will be able to easily deliver some funny lines, when needed.

 

[shauner111]

I'd be hard pressed to find any humor in a Zack Snyder film. Man of Steel is completely devoid of it, and I see no reason why BvS won't be the same. There was that one instance where the Latina was saying something about Superman's hotness or something. If that was supposed to be a joke, it landed on the floating rocks formerly known as Krypton, not Kansas.

The new writer may slip in a few bits of humor in the film, but good humor is a two way street, and I am not confident about Snyder's ability to execute them.

I can only think of unintentional humor from Zack's movies. Im really trying hard to think of ANYTHING that made me laugh out loud in 300, Watchmen, Man of Steel...

"Measuring d**ks" - "He's kinda hot" - "kissing an alien" all completely missed the mark in MOS. The things that i laughed at either in good fun or because of how bad it was? Probably scenes that were supposed to be taken seriously like Michael Shannon being a nutcase, so that doesn't count. I let out small chuckles when Martha said "nice suit son" and the priest gulping, but NOTHING made me laugh out loud. That wasn't the case with the oh so dark and grim Dark Knight Trilogy. There's plenty of times in ALL 3 films where i let out loud laughter.

I don't need one-liners and jokes but you can still sprinkle in humor that actually works.

Ultron had some annoying jokes in between the fighting and that makes everything less tense. But that's Avengers. MOS didn't do this and neither will Batman v Superman or Justice League, but come on! When they did give us a little dose of humor in between the two colossal Zod/Superman fights, it was placed at the wrong time. And it wasn't a well-written line at all. Epic fail as they say.

Goyer may not be the best, but i do blame Snyder. Goyer had help from the Nolan brothers, but a lot of laugh out loud moments from Begins came from Goyer. Maybe he just fell off i dont know. Or maybe it's Snyders fault for being a s**tty filter. Im sure Zack could have told Goyer to change the lines or came up with new ones on set. But he didn't so it's his fault. Snyders movie, you take the blame Zack. I dont blame Marion Cotillard (a PHENOMENAL actress) for her death scene in Rises, i blame Nolan for choosing a bad take. They're the director, it falls on them when it comes to the little things. I doubt Goyer is so precious about his little jokes that he would get pissed if Snyder changed a few of them. Fact is, Zack liked them enough to keep it in his Superman movie and i doubt he has regrets.


Hopefully Terrio brings it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

There's a difference between outright humor (with characters cracking jokes and delivering one-liners) and comic relief (some witty dialogue) or simple moments of levity. All blockbusters, even the most dreary ones like MOS, include these moments of levity, albeit not always "laugh out loud" humor. You point to one moment in MOS that was obviously intended to be humorous, but I can think of several more off the top of my head.

Well, I was talking about the latter. Snyder's films don't even have that. And if by some miracle they do, like the scene I mentioned, it doesn't land.

I, for one, don't see the need for a film like BvS to be laced with overt comedy. I certainly don't want it to mimic the comedy/humor of Avengers: AOU, which had our heroes constantly cracking jokes in the most dire situations. It felt like every other moment of that final battle (in which Earth's survival was at stake and people would have seemingly been dying or near death) included some kind of humorous moment or one-liner.

Previous moments of levity actually heighten later moments of dread. Would that scene in Rises where Alfred leaves Bruce been as effective if there weren't a good sense of repartee and humor between them leading up to it? If the tone of their relationship was always serious, their break-up would've been expected, not sad.

I see no reason to suggest that Snyder would be unable to include effectively witty dialogue in a film, if it came from a well written script.

Writing a script is one thing, directing it is another. I have yet to see a Snyder film where the characters are sharp and snappy instead of awkward and dull.

As for Terrio, I can only point to Argo, which was a pretty funny movie considering how high the stakes and drama were.

Which gives me hope that Terrio will include that here. But the script got a helping hand of Ben Affleck's direction landing the tone of those humorous moments. Whether Snyder can, we will have to see.

David Goyer (sole screenwriter of MOS) is not the best at lacing his films with great dialogue, and especially not good witty dialogue

And yet BB is both far funnier, and more 'fun' than MOS. Did Goyer lose his sense of humor? Or is it something else?

I also think the talented cast of BvS will be able to easily deliver some funny lines, when needed.

The cast needs to be directed. Even the best of actors can sound unconvincing if they are directed poorly.

 

[shauner111]

One more thing, a little comparison. True Detective is one of my favorite shows of all-time. It's dark and grim as hell, serious characters and subject manner but guess what? The natural humor (no jokes, this ain't Avengers kids) made me laugh out loud quite a bit. Good written humor coming from two characters who are in the middle of a conversation or Alfred reacting to some s**t Bruce is doing, not one-liner sitcom jokes, CAN be done. Man Of Steel had none of this and it was a Superman movie for crying out loud, not even a Batman movie.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I can only think of unintentional humor from Zack's movies. Im really trying hard to think of ANYTHING that made me laugh out loud in 300, Watchmen, Man of Steel...

"Measuring d**ks" - "He's kinda hot" - "kissing an alien" all completely missed the mark in MOS. The things that i laughed at either in good fun or because of how bad it was? Probably scenes that were supposed to be taken seriously like Michael Shannon being a nutcase, so that doesn't count. I let out small chuckles when Martha said "nice suit son" and the priest gulping, but NOTHING made me laugh out loud. That wasn't the case with the oh so dark and grim Dark Knight Trilogy. There's plenty of times in ALL 3 films where i let out loud laughter.

I don't need one-liners and jokes but you can still sprinkle in humor that actually works.

Ultron had some annoying jokes in between the fighting and that makes everything less tense. But that's Avengers. MOS didn't do this and neither will Batman v Superman or Justice League, but come on! When they did give us a little dose of humor in between the two colossal Zod/Superman fights, it was placed at the wrong time. And it wasn't a well-written line at all. Epic fail as they say.

Goyer may not be the best, but i do blame Snyder. Goyer had help from the Nolan brothers, but a lot of laugh out loud moments from Begins came from Goyer. Maybe he just fell off i dont know. Or maybe it's Snyders fault for being a s**tty filter. Im sure Zack could have told Goyer to change the lines or came up with new ones on set. But he didn't so it's his fault. Snyders movie, you take the blame Zack. I dont blame Marion Cotillard (a PHENOMENAL actress) for her death scene in Rises, i blame Nolan for choosing a bad take. They're the director, it falls on them when it comes to the little things. I doubt Goyer is so precious about his little jokes that he would get pissed if Snyder changed a few of them. Fact is, Zack liked them enough to keep it in his Superman movie and i doubt he has regrets.


Hopefully Terrio brings it.

I agree with everything.

Shannon looking spaced out all the time made me chuckle. But I don't think that was the effect intended.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

One more thing, a little comparison. True Detective is one of my favorite shows of all-time. It's dark and grim as hell, serious characters and subject manner but guess what? The natural humor (no jokes, this ain't Avengers kids) made me laugh out loud quite a bit. Good written humor coming from two characters who are in the middle of a conversation or Alfred reacting to some s**t Bruce is doing, not one-liner sitcom jokes, CAN be done. Man Of Steel had none of this and it was a Superman movie for crying out loud, not even a Batman movie.

The Wolverine and Days of The Future Past are also great examples of using situational humor and well timed but low key one liners to relieve tension in a serious movie

 

[shauner111]

I agree with everything.

Shannon looking spaced out all the time made me chuckle. But I don't think that was the effect intended.

Shannon was uncomfortable with what he had to wear on set, trying to be intimidating. He didn't quite believe that Zack would make it so badass in post. Zack pulled it off in post-production but Shannon was still uncomfortable and i believe that's why he felt off. He hammed it up a bit because he was out of his element. He was under the impression that he would be wearing armor on set, then Snyder pulled a fast one on him last minute. Shannon is so talented that he still did a solid job overall and was entertaining but he wasn't as intimidating as he could have been. We were laughing at his expressions when we should have been feeling threatened. There's only so much you can do with bad dialogue as well.

Without a doubt Terrio will do better with the script, but it's still Zacks movie. He's a style over substance director. He cares about what looks cool and awesome but he always leaves out the humor. Which makes it a CG fest and a visual feast sometimes but without much character and the humor falls flat. He does try. It's not like he wants ZERO LAUGHS. He makes sure there's attempts at humor, but it just sucks. The Comedian was probably the best thing now that i think of it, but even that wasn't great.

The Wolverine and Days of The Future Past are also great examples of using situational humor and well timed but low key one liners to relieve tension in a serious movie

Absolutely

 

[BatLobster]

Only thing I can think of that really made me chuckle in MoS was the reveal of the wrecked truck after Clark leaves the bar. But yeah, Snyder's films thus far really don't have a lot of personality. There were attempts at humor in MoS but most of them were cringe-worthy.

That's not to say BB didn't have a few cringe-worthy attempts either, I still hate "Nice coat" and "I gotta get me one of those!", but there was still a lot that worked- particularly anything between Bruce, Alfred and Lucius.

 

[JackWhite]

Props to Shauner for namedropping True Detective. I binge watched season one again a few weeks ago, still amazing. The humor between Rust and Marty was so effortless and not as if the writers were going for one liners and zingers, but just the nature of how different their points of views differ.

I use to hate "I've gotta get me one of those" from BB, but oddly enough it's somewhat grown on me over the years. One of my favorite bits of humor is when Bruce is talking to Alfred about feeling the effects of what Crane gassed him with before, and Lucius just walks in and the look on Bale's face with the glass up to his mouth, lol. Then they have their little banter about getting gassed again or being out at clubs with people passing out weaponized hallucinogens. I love it.

 

[Travesty]

I don't know about you guys, but every time Robin John Blake spoke, I laughed my ass off.

 

[BlueLightning]

I liked the "Nice coat" lines. But perhaps "I gotta get me one of those!" was a little out of place. I didn't mind it though.