BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 4

[matt47]

I thought someone said that Supes realized it was Batman because he could hear Alfred in Bruce's ear at the party?

 

[haephestus]

I thought someone said that Supes realized it was Batman because he could hear Alfred in Bruce's ear at the party?

He could hear Alfred, but I don't think Alfred called Bruce "Batman" over the headset. I could be wrong though.

I think hearing Alfred piqued his curiosity about what "billionaire playboy" Bruce Wayne was up to in Lex's mansion (or library or whatever that place was), but I don't think it led to Clark concluding that Bruce was Batman.

 

[JaD]

I thought someone said that Supes realized it was Batman because he could hear Alfred in Bruce's ear at the party?

That's what I got from it. Then he approached him and asked him about the Bat vigilante thing to see his reaction and it was full of tension. We never see Supes look under his cowl or anything like that.

 

[matt47]

Gotchya

 

[G'c]

Re: G'c's questions

Superman has x-ray vision. When Superman first confronted Batman during the Batmobile chase, I presume he saw Batman's true face and realised that it was Bruce Wayne who he had met earlier at Lex's party.

That's if Clark Kent hadn't figured it out already using journalistic skills acquired from working at the Daily Planet and from shadowing Lois Lane. Although, if he already knew who Batman was, I don't know why he would bother asking who Bruce Wayne was when he saw Bruce arrive at Lex's party. Then again, I didn't know why Lex knew who Clark Kent was since he wasn't a respected journalist. Unless Lex had already figured out that Clark was Superman.

I presume that Lex knew that Bruce was Batman. If he knew who Superman was, it stands to reason that he could also determine Batman's true identity. Also, Lex was taunting Bruce through his letters purportedly sent by Wally. The only reason for Lex to mentally manipulate Bruce Wayne would be if he knew that Bruce was Batman.

Thank you haephestus for the answer!

Makes sense but I guess the above reasons will be quite confusing for the general audience by just watching the movie alone.

Spoiler

So I suppose people have to actually go in expecting Lex knew the identities of both bruce and clark way early (before the events of movie started). I think knowing this will be a better viewing experience for some.

 

[behemocoatl]

More people in this thread saying that 'supes got his ass kicked'. Just makes me sad.
See... it's not the 'philosophical battle' that is most salient or relevant in people's minds, its the fact that supes got destroyed physically by batman. Just criminal it was so onesided.

 

[G'c]

More people in this thread saying that 'supes got his ass kicked'. Just makes me sad.
See... it's not the 'philosophical battle' that is most salient or relevant in people's minds, its the fact that supes got destroyed physically by batman. Just criminal it was so onesided.

No need to be sad.

Spoiler

From my POV supes already won by holding off himself so much (Note: I am not a superman fan AT ALL). Yes it could have been executed better action wise as the scene feels very short but I actually think Bruce loses. He lost because his judgment is totally clouded and the fact that he even wanted to kill him shows he has totally lost it at one point.

 

[Mister J]

As much as I enjoyed the performances, in general. I didn't like Lex. I think what he did was done well, but I'd rather not had (as borrowed from another outlet) a caffeinated teenager. Even after he was busted, the take was largely the same with whatever ticking he was doing in his cell. Luthor's portrayal, like much of the characterizations, is something I believe I'll ultimately be satisfied with but down the line when this slate is more fleshed out. Director's Cut will probably help to that end too, as it seemed some expository was lifted for the theatrical.

All in all, I am looking forward to another viewing tomorrow to see how things flow now that I know how it goes down.

 

[Lone]

Superman gets his ass kicked only because Batman he uses Kryptonite and because Superman had no intention of actually wrecking his ****. The fight is not totally one sided because they clearly show you that without Kryptonite, Superman would DESTROY Batman and there's a moment in the fight when Batman looks like he's gonna **** his pants.

 

[CGNefarious]

As a huge Superman fan, I have to say

Spoiler

I was not disappointed in the fight at all. It was made clear from the very beginning that Kal could have killed Bruce almost instantly. Even when he was pissed off and recovering from the kryptonite poisoning, he was holding back a bit against Bruce. The only reason Bruce ever got the upper hand was because Clark was holding back the entire time.

What I curious of is, had Bruce gone through with stabbing him with the spear, would Clark have truly died? What are Superman's actual limits in this world? The scene in space made me speculate that we haven't even really begun to see Supes' true potential. Justice League could be a real treat.

 

[Lone]

I thought someone said that Supes realized it was Batman because he could hear Alfred in Bruce's ear at the party?

Yes it is. I think Clark sets his Super-hearing to alert mode when he's in crowd/event which is why he picks up Alfred's voice communicating with Bruce. This kinda makes sense later when he's talking to Lois post-courtroom scene saying how he "wasn't looking" and beating himself over the bombing. Scoot McNairy's character was definitely an unintentional suicide bomber. He looks clueless that he's sitting on a bomb with wheels.

 

[CGNefarious]

There's a moment in the fight when Batman looks like he's gonna **** his pants.

I gotta say, even though it was quick, I absolutely loved that moment.

 

[haephestus]

Thank you haephestus for the answer!

Makes sense but I guess the above reasons will be quite confusing for the general audience by just watching the movie alone.

Spoiler

So I suppose people have to actually go in expecting Lex knew the identities of both bruce and clark way early (before the events of movie started). I think knowing this will be a better viewing experience for some.

No worries. I guess so. To be honest, I had a lot of trouble following the motivations of Lex and Bruce, particularly their hatred of Superman. Both Lex and Bruce are gunning for Superman from the start of the movie.

Lex wanted to develop a kryptonite weapon to kill Superman and when he's not doing that he's framing Superman for deaths in Africa (although that also made no sense to me since the victims were killed by bullets and if another terrorist / warlord used the power vacuum to attack some villages controlled by the dead terrorist / warlord, then I'm not sure Superman can be completely blamed as he can't police the entire world at all times). Lex then also "frames" Superman for the explosion, although once again, that made no sense to me since everyone knows that Wally was responsible not Superman. Sure, the public thinks that Wally was trying to kill Superman, but I still don't understand why that would lead the public to hate Superman.

Meanwhile, Bruce wants to steal Lex's kryptonite weapon to kill Superman. Bruce's activities as Batman in Gotham are solely directed towards this purpose (I'm guessing because he's already captured and imprisoned his rogues gallery).

So, both Lex and Bruce want Superman dead from the very start for no clear reason other than anger about Zod's attack on Earth and fear about Superman taking over the world. And amongst all that, Lex presumably found the time to determine the secret identities of Superman and Batman as part of his research on various heroes.

 

[Lone]

As a huge Superman fan, I have to say

Spoiler

I was not disappointed in the fight at all. It was made clear from the very beginning that Kal could have killed Bruce almost instantly. Even when he was pissed off and recovering from the kryptonite poisoning, he was holding back a bit against Bruce. The only reason Bruce ever got the upper hand was because Clark was holding back the entire time.

What I curious of is, had Bruce gone through with stabbing him with the spear, would Clark have truly died? What are Superman's actual limits in this world? The scene in space made me speculate that we haven't even really begun to see Supes' true potential. Justice League could be a real treat.

Kryptonite definitely would've killed Superman. As for his limits, it seems nukes could take him down too.

 

[haephestus]

More people in this thread saying that 'supes got his ass kicked'. Just makes me sad.

That wasn't my impression. Firstly, Superman was off his game. Lex had just attempted to murder Lois (for the second time) and was holding Martha hostage, threatening her with a horrific death, unless Superman killed Batman. That's not the best starting point mentally for any "fight".

Secondly, it was clear to me that Superman could have killed Batman with ease at any point during the battle before the introduction of kryptonite. There is a point when Superman places his palm on Batman's armoured chest, applies the barest amount of pressure, but sends Batman flying through multiple walls. And leaves a handprint on the armour.

Thirdly, this was Superman's first encounter with kryptonite. It was his first time ever feeling close to what a normal "human" feels since his powers first manifested as a teenager. Superman had no idea what was going on. With his focus on saving Martha's life and a newfound fear of being killed, when previously he assumed he was essentially immortal, it once again makes it clear that Superman isn't firing on all cylinders.

Fourthly, Batman has been Batman-ing for around 20 years. Superman is 1.5 years into learning to use his powers and presumably doesn't have any training in an actual fist fight since he would never need such training. So, Batman being more skilled than Superman, when Superman is weakened by kryptonite, makes sense to me.

Fifthly, it's a movie based on a comic book. They've battled in the comics for stupid reasons in stupid circumstances many times. You have to suspend disbelief about some aspects in these circumstances.

 

[CGNefarious]

Yeah, but he was completely fine moments after being hit by the nuke. Just chilling out in the sun's rays and he goes from a shallow husk (obviously dead) to perfectly fine. Then at the end, while holding the kryptonite spear, he is killed by Doomsday. The massive chunk of Kryptonite drained all his powers, and so he couldn't recover from Doomsday's impaling. Once again, he was obviously dead. They wouldn't have buried him if he was just unconscious. But then at the end of the movie, presumably a couple days later, we see that he's coming back.

So I'm not entirely convinced that being impaled by Kryptonite would have outright killed him. Obviously it killing him is the narrative they were going for during the fight, and it's probably also what Snyder had intended to be true, but I could also see it going the other way.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it. Or my Superman fanboyness is getting the better of me.

 

[Lone]

No worries. I guess so. To be honest, I had a lot of trouble following the motivations of Lex and Bruce, particularly their hatred of Superman. Both Lex and Bruce are gunning for Superman from the start of the movie.

Lex wanted to develop a kryptonite weapon to kill Superman and when he's not doing that he's framing Superman for deaths in Africa (although that also made no sense to me since the victims were killed by bullets and if another terrorist / warlord used the power vacuum to attack some villages controlled by the dead terrorist / warlord, then I'm not sure Superman can be completely blamed as he can't police the entire world at all times). Lex then also "frames" Superman for the explosion, although once again, that made no sense to me since everyone knows that Wally was responsible not Superman. Sure, the public thinks that Wally was trying to kill Superman, but I still don't understand why that would lead the public to hate Superman.

Meanwhile, Bruce wants to steal Lex's kryptonite weapon to kill Superman. Bruce's activities as Batman in Gotham are solely directed towards this purpose (I'm guessing because he's already captured and imprisoned his rogues gallery).

So, both Lex and Bruce want Superman dead from the very start for no clear reason other than anger about Zod's attack on Earth and fear about Superman taking over the world. And amongst all that, Lex presumably found the time to determine the secret identities of Superman and Batman as part of his research on various heroes.

Lex hates Superman because he hates God in general and Superman in his eyes is a living embodiment of a god. He mentions god letting his father get away with abusing him. That's his main beef the way I see it. Even after everything, Superman still stops Doomsday's first punch from connecting with Lex.

Bruce hates Superman because he knows no human can stop him should he decide to go rogue. It doesn't help that he lost people working for him "The day the world was introduced to The Superman". The feeling of powerlessness is definitely a major motivator in his aggression towards Superman IMO.

 

[Rapunzel]

Superman can't put up a real fight against Bats. If he does, he proves Bats' point. And the whole point of the movie, and ending, are that Bats is completely wrong.

I don't get how folks can't see that. I haven't even seen the film yet, and it's obvious from spoilers.

This is why I think the worry over the darkness and divisiveness is silly. From the looks of things, Supes has clearly made up his mind to be the Superman everyone wants, and he will be that in JL.....the affect he has on Bats is evidence, imo.

This is why the DOS elements are brilliant here-- dying is the most inspirational move Supes can make to clear up the darkness of his world and let justice dawn.

 

[CGNefarious]

The "dreams" also played a large part in making him feel powerless and fear a future with an evil Superman.

I'm still not entirely sure what those were. Were they straight up nightmares? Or something more?

 

[Lone]

The "dreams" also played a large part in making him feel powerless and fear a future with an evil Superman.

I'm still not entirely sure what those were. Were they straight up nightmares? Or something more?

I think the knightmare was more of a vision. It was too specific to be a nightmare.

 

[roach]

The "dreams" also played a large part in making him feel powerless and fear a future with an evil Superman.

I'm still not entirely sure what those were. Were they straight up nightmares? Or something more?

I have two theories.
The nightmares are caused by Darkseid. I think I seem to recall in Final Crisis he gave people nightmares.
the other theory I have is that it was caused by The Flash traveling back in time to top the Mad Bats time line from coming true...like a temporal echo on Bruce's subconscious

 

[matt47]

Does anyone know exactly what Flash says to Bruce?

 

[Lone]

I have two theories.
The nightmares are caused by Darkseid. I think I seem to recall in Final Crisis he gave people nightmares.
the other theory I have is that it was caused by The Flash traveling back in time to top the Mad Bats time line from coming true...like a temporal echo on Bruce's subconscious

The Flash theory I am leaning towards myself. It makes more sense seeing how the vision precedes the arrival of The Flash.

 

[roach]

Does anyone know exactly what Flash says to Bruce?

"Rosebud"

 

[Lone]

Does anyone know exactly what Flash says to Bruce?

Check my post a couple of pages back.